218 replies to this topic

[Diablobo]

Currently, when running a mech that has no ammo and only energy weapons, it is possible to blow up the mech by overheating.
There is no mechanic in any rule system of the Battletech universe that accounts for this. The only possible way for a mech to explode from overheating is by setting off the ammo. If there is no ammo, the mech simply shuts down until the heat dissipates.
As it stands now, a mech will blow up just as surely with no ammo as it would if it had 10 tons of ammo. This is not proper, and the devs need to address why they have chosen to have mechs explode rather than simply shut down when they overheat and don't any have ammo to cook.
Do the developers seriously mean to say that sophisticated and highly engineered machines are allowed to explode right under the pilots?
They are going to shut down before they explode, and no amount of rationalization of the heat mechanic would explain why we are all running around sitting on bombs that are going to explode if pushed too hard.
The engines are supposed to shut down, not explode.

[Noth]

The engines do shut down. Never Have I died to and engine explosion unless I spammed the overide, which should cause the explosion due to removing the safety mechanisms of the engine.

[Havyek]

They do shut down.

Unless of course you overheat the safeties and then keep firing. Then you'll explode horribly.

[Silra]

I love the table top rules and stuff...

But this is a computer game. If they copied TT rules as they are, this should be a turn based strategy game. Some compromises will have to be made for balancing and other reasons (like the fact it's simpler and easier to make every mech blow up the same at the start, and then later on fine tune the system to take into account weapons used by said battlemech).

I personally like this as it is. No matter what weapons you use, you still have to watch your heat meter to some extent. As an example: you can't just go Hunchback with 9 lasers and overheat in peace after 2 salvos without worrying about exploding at some point.

If you are overriding your engine shutdown, then yes you should blow up just the same.

Edit: Typos!

Edited by Silra, 05 November 2012 - 04:43 AM.

[Valron]

Umm if a mech gets too hot then wouldnt critical components melt and the engine would either have a steam explosion or just be rendered inert thus making your mech dead for all intents and pruposes......

That being said you only risk dying to overheating if you override the shutdown. Either that or overheat in the caldera.

[Diablobo]

Mechs do not explode from overheating. If there is no ammo, the mech will simply shut down.
Even if the physics of an engine explosion were possible, which they are not, the conditions of high heat would automatically collapse the reaction processes in the engine before it got to the point of explosion.

I am well aware that with the current game mechanic it is possible to explode from overriding the heat shutdown process, but my point is, is that it is not proper, and it does not follow the Battletech rules. Mechs without ammo NEVER explode from overheating in the Battletech game system. They shut down until the heat dissipates. That's all that happens.

[Valron]

If you override a shutdown and proceed to build up heat then the engine is damaged beyond repair and your mech is dead. It just so happens this is shown by your CT exploding in the game. Whats the issue?

[Hipsu]

The OP is right in that in the lore (or in the table top) a mech never explodes from an overheated engine even if furiously hitting the override button. You can override only so far and after a certain threshold the engine simply forces a non-overridable SHUTDOWN. And it can take a looong time to cool down if pushed far over the limits. But it will not explode.

[Calmon]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

Mechs do not explode from overheating. If there is no ammo, the mech will simply shut down.
Even if the physics of an engine explosion were possible, which they are not, the conditions of high heat would automatically collapse the reaction processes in the engine before it got to the point of explosion.

I am well aware that with the current game mechanic it is possible to explode from overriding the heat shutdown process, but my point is, is that it is not proper, and it does not follow the Battletech rules. Mechs without ammo NEVER explode from overheating in the Battletech game system. They shut down until the heat dissipates. That's all that happens.

I don't get you point. THEY SHUT DOWN. So what is your problem?

Don't want to overwrite this? If there would be no consequence of overwriting there would be no heat restriction without amo. So what would be your plan? No overwriting at all for every mech? Or only for mechs without amo - seems silly because 1 Ammo would let you overwrite, 0 not.

Edited by Calmon, 05 November 2012 - 05:06 AM.

[Noth]

Hipsu, on 05 November 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

The OP is right in that in the lore (or in the table top) a mech never explodes from an overheated engine even if furiously hitting the override button. You can override only so far and after a certain threshold the engine simply forces a non-overridable SHUTDOWN. And it can take a looong time to cool down if pushed far over the limits. But it will not explode.

Actually if you read the lore behind the fusion engine, excessive heat can cause failure of the safety measures and containment measure causing a permanent shutdown or even what appears to be an explosion as air rushes into the containment area (due to failed containment measures) and then that air being superheated explodes outward. So even in lore it makes since for the engines to be able to explode from excessive heat.

[Diablobo]

That never happens in the Battletech game. There is no engine damage beyond repair in any rules system.
Engines do not get damaged by the heat levels, they simply don't work.
Do you mean to tell me that an engine that is bottling a millions of degree temperature fusion reaction is going to melt?
NOPE, not going to happen.

[Calmon]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

That never happens in the Battletech game. There is no engine damage beyond repair in any rules system.
Engines do not get damaged by the heat levels, they simply don't work.
Do you mean to tell me that an engine that is bottling a millions of degree temperature fusion reaction is going to melt?
NOPE, not going to happen.

So your solution is: no overwrite at all?

[Vassago Rain]

Using the override causes internal damage. Doing it too much kills you.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

That never happens in the Battletech game. There is no engine damage beyond repair in any rules system.
Engines do not get damaged by the heat levels, they simply don't work.
Do you mean to tell me that an engine that is bottling a millions of degree temperature fusion reaction is going to melt?
NOPE, not going to happen.

Components outside of the engine begin to fail, the heatsink on the engine begin (you know the things that allow it to handle that much heat) to fail. Heat build up beyond what component can take safety measures begin to fail. The mech will either shutdown and not power back on due to impaired safety measures, or fail with a chance of a steam explosion. Everything has a melting point. If the engine could handle all the heat it wouldn't have heatsinks installed in it. Nothing, not even in BT is completely safe from failures.

The game simply shows this by the center torso exploding to let you know that the target is dead and not just shut down. It could be worse. We could have stackpolling

Edited by Noth, 05 November 2012 - 05:12 AM.

[Diablobo]

Calmon, on 05 November 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

I don't get you point. THEY SHUT DOWN. So what is your problem?

Don't want to overwrite this? If there would be no consequence of overwriting there would be no heat restriction without amo. So what would be your plan? No overwriting at all for every mech? Or only for mechs without amo - seems silly because 1 Ammo would let you overwrite, 0 not.

The consequence of not carrying ammo should be that mechs should be able to run hotter for longer than those do carry ammo. Of course, at a certain point, the mech will shut down, but it is not possible to destroy a mech by overheating.

[Taram]

Last time I checked this is a computer game not the tabletop game. I like following the TT rules as much as possible myself but, seriously, there needs to be consequences for continually over-riding your auto-shut down. If you don't like exploding quit over riding the shutdown so much. If you have no ammo that's fine. But don't expect the devs to let you deliberately overheat constantly and just press over ride endlessly with 0 consequences.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

The consequence of not carrying ammo should be that mechs should be able to run hotter for longer than those do carry ammo. Of course, at a certain point, the mech will shut down, but it is not possible to destroy a mech by overheating.

Really. From the wiki:

Quote

Fusion engines usually will only shut down if damaged, and they are absolutely no risk of being a fusion bomb. ^[2] There have been a number of cases of fusion engines being "over revved" and exploding with devestating force, but this is more akin to a boiler explosion than a true nuclear explosion.

Over revving one of these engines creates excessive heat which causes failure. So yes a mech can be destroyed by over heating.

Edited by Noth, 05 November 2012 - 05:15 AM.

[Diablobo]

The bottom line is, the devs have adopted an almost complete translation of the tabletop rules to this video game.
The arbitrary and rule-breaking decision to have mechs not carrying ammo explode from overheating is not supported by the tabletop rules, and it is not supported by physics.

[The Herrick]

http://www.sarna.net...i/Fusion_Engine

Quote

Fusion engines usually will only shut down if damaged, and they are absolutely no risk of being a fusion bomb. There have been a number of cases of fusion engines being "over revved" and exploding with devestating force, but this is more akin to a boiler explosion than a true nuclear explosion. More often a destroyed engine will be punctured by weapons fire. Because the plasma is held in a vacuum chamber (to isolate the superheated plasma from the cold walls of the reactor; contact with the walls would super-chill the plasma below fusion temperatures), a punctured reactor can suck in air where the air is superheated. Normal thermal expansion of the air causes the air to burst out in a brilliant lightshow often mistaken for a "nuclear explosion". The Thermal Expansion damages anything within 90 meters of the destroyed 'Mech.

If you override your safeties you're gonna have a bad time.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

The bottom line is, the devs have adopted an almost complete translation of the tabletop rules to this video game.
The arbitrary and rule-breaking decision to have mechs not carrying ammo explode from overheating is not supported by the tabletop rules, and it is not supported by physics.

This isn't TT. Dev choice is also supported by lore and physics.

Edited by Noth, 05 November 2012 - 05:17 AM.