218 replies to this topic

[Noth]

Hipsu, on 05 November 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

I want to know: In MWO does a mech carrying ammo explode more likely from overheat than a Mech without? Because the ammo should explode before the engine. I think that's the core issue here.

On average an ammo cook off will happen before the engine goes. Thta doesn't always mean that the ammo explosion will kill the mech though.

[PurpleNinja]

Removing the override would be enough, but the explosion causing mech tonnage x10 points of damage to all mechs 200 meters away would make kamikazes way more fun.

[wanderer]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

Currently, when running a mech that has no ammo and only energy weapons, it is possible to blow up the mech by overheating.
There is no mechanic in any rule system of the Battletech universe that accounts for this. The only possible way for a mech to explode from overheating is by setting off the ammo. If there is no ammo, the mech simply shuts down until the heat dissipates.
As it stands now, a mech will blow up just as surely with no ammo as it would if it had 10 tons of ammo. This is not proper, and the devs need to address why they have chosen to have mechs explode rather than simply shut down when they overheat and don't any have ammo to cook.
Do the developers seriously mean to say that sophisticated and highly engineered machines are allowed to explode right under the pilots?
They are going to shut down before they explode, and no amount of rationalization of the heat mechanic would explain why we are all running around sitting on bombs that are going to explode if pushed too hard.
The engines are supposed to shut down, not explode.

Actually, there's rules in Battletech that allow for the heat scale to go beyond 30, which include the capacity to cause critical hits up to and including destroying the engine or frying the pilot even with life support operational.

Override or get the heat forced high enough and having your 'Mech burn is not only canonical, it's actually in the rules. Tactical Operations to be precise.

[Haeso]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

Mechs do not explode from overheating. If there is no ammo, the mech will simply shut down.
Even if the physics of an engine explosion were possible, which they are not, the conditions of high heat would automatically collapse the reaction processes in the engine before it got to the point of explosion.

I am well aware that with the current game mechanic it is possible to explode from overriding the heat shutdown process, but my point is, is that it is not proper, and it does not follow the Battletech rules. Mechs without ammo NEVER explode from overheating in the Battletech game system. They shut down until the heat dissipates. That's all that happens.

Fine, lets bring TT overheat rules into this - your pilot is dead and you get to start your pilot tree from scratch next time you overheat that far.

[Keisuke Nagisa]

I agree i think its strange that you can explode from heat without ammo. And I'm not talking about over-riding. I was on caustic and overheated my jenner by about 1% by firing a small lazor and I stackpoled (I did not over-ride). Wtf

[Diablobo]

Thank you for the mention of the Tactical Operations advanced heat rules, wanderer. I have not used them, so was not familiar with them.
Having read them, I do notice the system damage possibilities. The only problem is, one point of internal damage distributed randomly is not going to cause a mech to explode or die, unless it happens to be a gauss rifle, or the mech has already sustained two engine hits.
Having system failures from high heat levels should not be that hard to implement, and would provide a fair warning of impending destruction. Right now, the high heat levels cause mechs to completely blow up and happen just as quickly and as often as a mech with ammo. This is something that should be fixed I think.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Thank you for the mention of the Tactical Operations advanced heat rules, wanderer. I have not used them, so was not familiar with them.
Having read them, I do notice the system damage possibilities. The only problem is, one point of internal damage distributed randomly is not going to cause a mech to explode or die, unless it happens to be a gauss rifle, or the mech has already sustained two engine hits.
Having system failures from high heat levels should not be that hard to implement, and would provide a fair warning of impending destruction. Right now, the high heat levels cause mechs to completely blow up and happen just as quickly and as often as a mech with ammo. This is something that should be fixed I think.

System failures already happen. Again you aren't listening to what people are saying. If you overide your shutdown, while you mech is at or above 100% heat, it begins doing damage to all parts of the mech. Heatsinks and ammo will go before the engine does on average. Ammo can even go without you overriding your shutdown. Engines go fast because this is real time and failures pretty much never happen slowly. In fact as one failure happens it tends to trigger more and more leading to faster and faster cascade of failure.

Edited by Noth, 05 November 2012 - 10:30 AM.

[Sarevos]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

Currently, when running a mech that has no ammo and only energy weapons, it is possible to blow up the mech by overheating.
There is no mechanic in any rule system of the Battletech universe that accounts for this. The only possible way for a mech to explode from overheating is by setting off the ammo. If there is no ammo, the mech simply shuts down until the heat dissipates.
As it stands now, a mech will blow up just as surely with no ammo as it would if it had 10 tons of ammo. This is not proper, and the devs need to address why they have chosen to have mechs explode rather than simply shut down when they overheat and don't any have ammo to cook.
Do the developers seriously mean to say that sophisticated and highly engineered machines are allowed to explode right under the pilots?
They are going to shut down before they explode, and no amount of rationalization of the heat mechanic would explain why we are all running around sitting on bombs that are going to explode if pushed too hard.
The engines are supposed to shut down, not explode.

what the hell? its a fusion engine its called reaching critical the point where EM fields can no longer contain the reaction and the engine detonates or is hard shut down with a dampening field this is all over lore man

[Broceratops]

its for gameplay balance reasons

i dont know how this thread got so many posts and this was hardly mentioned.

tabletop is not some sort of bible that is unchangeable.

technically every time you blow up you should be losing like 4 million c-bills. also you're dead. but i dont see anyone complaining about that.

Edited by Broceratops, 05 November 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Sarevos]

Broceratops, on 05 November 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

its for gameplay balance reasons

i dont know how this thread got so many posts and this was hardly mentioned.

tabletop is not some sort of bible that is unchangeable.

and it makes all logical sense + its in lore

[Diablobo]

Broceratops, on 05 November 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

its for gameplay balance reasons

i dont know how this thread got so many posts and this was hardly mentioned.

tabletop is not some sort of bible that is unchangeable.

While there certainly are differences between a tabletop and video game, the Battletech game system is already quite balanced and all of these things have been taken into account. Do you mean to say that the MWO devs have a greater store of gameplay balance experience and knowledge than the authors and publishers of the Battletech game system that has been around for 28 years? That's wrong, if only for the sheer number of years that Battletech has existed prior to MWO. If I were an author or owner of this license, I would be upset that some kids decided to throw the heat mechanic out the window.

Yes, as a matter of fact, the TT rules are a bible of sorts; rules are rules and are not changeable in this very drastic and very gameplay-affecting way. They either are a Battletech-based game, or they are not, and Battletech mechs without ammo do not completely blow up because of high heat levels like mechs with ammo.

Changing a point or two of damage here and there with the weapons and armor is one thing, but a complete destruction of a mech is another. I seriously doubt that even the authors of the Battletech novels decided to arbitrarily blow up a mech without ammo because it got too hot. The authors of the novels also loved to have cockpit heat levels spike when a mech received damage, which is ludicrous, so they were hardly a good example of Battletech lore with respect to gameplay.

Edited by Diablobo, 06 November 2012 - 03:22 AM.

[Diablobo]

The whole heat system in general is broken as far as I'm concerned.

When a mech with 20 heat sinks and two medium lasers can constantly fire and still overheat, the system is broken.
I've tried it, and it will happen in about two minutes. IN FROZEN CITY!! What sort of stupid engineer would design a mech like that? Isn't that one of the appeals of MWO - the ability to design mechs that are not only powerful, but heat-efficient as well? Right now, heat efficiency and the prevention of overheating is IMPOSSIBLE, no matter how many heatsinks you stick on a mech. Almost every mech that is customized in the tabletop can be made to never overheat, so why can't we do it here?

The obvious and easy solution has apparently been rejected by the devs: Double standard heat sinks just like they doubled the armor. They did it with the armor, so why are they so reluctant to do it with the heat sinks? I guess we are all destined to run around in EZ bake ovens. Thanks a lot devs.

Edited by Diablobo, 06 November 2012 - 03:51 AM.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

The whole heat system in general is broken as far as I'm concerned.

When a mech with 20 heat sinks and two medium lasers can constantly fire and still overheat, the system is broken.
I've tried it, and it will happen in about two minutes. What sort of stupid engineer would design a mech like that? Isn't that one of the appeals of MWO - the ability to design mechs that are not only powerful, but heat-efficient as well? Right now, heat efficiency and the prevention of overheating is IMPOSSIBLE, no matter how many heatsinks you stick on a mech. Almost every mech that is customized in the tabletop can be made to never overheat, so why can't we do it here?

The obvious and easy solution has apparently been rejected by the devs: Double standard heat sinks just like they doubled the armor. They did it with the armor, so why are they so reluctant to do it with the heat sinks? I guess we are all destined to run around in EZ bake ovens. Thanks a lot devs.

It's not broken, it done in a way to make heat matter. Rather than just making a mech heat neutral in the Mechlab, you have to actually think and pay attention to your heat in the field. Doubling heatsinks make heat management too easy (hy DHS are going to be 1.4 instead of 2.0 as well)

Edited by Noth, 06 November 2012 - 03:51 AM.

[Tarman]

Not sure if trolling or set-in-stone grognard. Dude, if you want 100% TT, play TT. If you want to get inside a mech and fight it out from the cockpit, then deal with some changes for realtime combat. Also, nice topic direction change after you got called out on the engines. Now lets just complain about heat in general everybody! You should be grateful we're not running Stackpoles or else you'd really be cranked, eh?

[Diablobo]

I was not called out on the engines. They do not "blow up" in any way by any gameplay mechanic in the Battletech system. We have already established that one point of internal damage does not destroy a mech, so nothing has really changed with regards to my original post. It seems you are trolling.

[Tarman]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

I was not called out on the engines. They do not "blow up" in any way by any gameplay mechanic in the Battletech system. We have already established that one point of internal damage does not destroy a mech, so nothing has really changed with regards to my original post. It seems you are trolling.

Your mock formality does not make you any more correct sir, it just gives you an air of pompousness, especially in your error.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

I was not called out on the engines. They do not "blow up" in any way by any gameplay mechanic in the Battletech system. We have already established that one point of internal damage does not destroy a mech, so nothing has really changed with regards to my original post. It seems you are trolling.

I'm pretty sure you were called out. In fact with both lore and gameplay rules proving you wrong.

[DrxAbstract]

Stackpole online, where PPCs go through an atlas to headshot the awesome standing behind it.

[Diablobo]

Noth, I am disappointed. You were doing so well, and then you went and threw it away. One point of internal damage does not make a mech go boom. You slipped up when you tried to claim that mech systems already fail and provide warning before complete destruction. That does not happen, and your simple "you're wrong" statement holds even less weight when you try and cling to a bad position.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

Noth, I am disappointed. You were doing so well, and then you went and threw it away. One point of internal damage does not make a mech go boom. You slipped up when you tried to claim that mech systems already fail and provide warning before complete destruction. That does not happen, and your simple "you're wrong" statement holds even less weight when you try and cling to a bad position.

No where do you mention only 1 point of damage in your OP. We have established that both lore, rule mechanics, and physics facilitate engine explosions, both wholeheartedly proving your OP wrong.