218 replies to this topic

[SHORTZ]

orrrr seeing as its midnight where i am and i have an exam in the morning you could just impart your wisdom to me now and save me some time please?

[Krivvan]

SHORTZ, on 06 November 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

orrrr seeing as its midnight where i am and i have an exam in the morning you could just impart your wisdom to me now and save me some time please?

You're getting a bad reaction because your reply looked like this:

"The engine is a fusion engine that does not meltdown."

"I see, but what kind of engine is it? Fission or Fusion?"

[Gorith]

Look people have been trying to explain this to you for awhile I think at this point considering your last reply it's fairly clear either your mind is completely closed to anything people are telling you or your being a troll.

Either way this post will not accomplish anything. Perhaps a mod will lock it before it gets out of hand.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

These so-called engine explosion TT rules are pretty weak. Like I said, one point of internal damage randomly distributed in the mech is not going to make it explode. Your TT rule argument doesn't apply.

As for the lore, since I'm from Missouri, you're going to have to "show me" an instance in the lore where a mech without ammo has blown up from high heat levels. I'll save you the trouble. It's not there.

The physics part is pretty straightforward. Do you mean to say that a reactor is going to explode when the design of reactors is completely different from that of bombs? Someone needs a refresher course in short-bus science.

Like I said, you are the stubborn one who is clinging to an indefensible position.

Good thing in this game it's not one point then is it. In this game overheating does continuous crits all over you mech. This mean that you could potentially take 3 straight crits to the engine and thus it fails. How it fails depends on various things.

Try reading the wiki, or pretty much any book about BT. If you refuse to do the research to actually know what youa re talking about, I'm not going to do it for you.

As to the physics, let me quote a recent post in this very thread that you likely ignored:

DrxAbstract, on 06 November 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

No. Fusion reactors are different from Fission (Nuclear reactors). They cannot 'meltdown'. The only explosions a Fusion reactor can cause is if the vacuum chamber were breached and air from outside rushes in, gets superheated in a matter of nanoseconds, expands and turns the reactor chamber into a beer can with an m40 inside. Or there's too large a reaction going on for the reaction chamber to contain in which case the mech will literally explode in a thermal detonation. Either only causes minor devastation to the immediate area - and a pretty show to watch. This is already addressed in TT lore, by the way.

If the heatsinks on the engine fail the reaction can literally become too much for the containment field (which requires those heatsinks to safely dissipate heat). This would lead to a thermal explosion. It's not going nuclear but is still an explosion.

As for why it always shows explosion in the game is so that players know the mech is dead. An extended shotdown in this game is an inoperable mech, thus a dead mech.

[SHORTZ]

Okay i apologise i didnt pick up on that when i read it, fusion reactors it is. If you guys could cut me some slack that would be nice i have been studying for the last 5 days for my maths final which is in 9 hours so my mental capacity is not up to its usual standards. Thankyou for your help though

[Krivvan]

SHORTZ, on 06 November 2012 - 05:05 AM, said:

Okay i apologise i didnt pick up on that when i read it, fusion reactors it is. If you guys could cut me some slack that would be nice i have been studying for the last 5 days for my maths final which is in 9 hours so my mental capacity is not up to its usual standards. Thankyou for your help though

Perhaps it might be better to rest up for that rather than getting yourself worked up on these forums.

[Diablobo]

It is VERY clear that the rules make it highly unlikely that heat levels will reach the point of internal system damage BEFORE the engine shuts down.

Right now in the game it only takes heat levels of less than 20 or so (rough estimate) for the mech to explode. System damage only occurs at 36. The first point happens then, and that is only assuming that someone rolls perfectly with super high modifiers with pilot skill to avoid a shutdown before that point. Why is it so offensive that a mech shut down before then until the heat dissipates? In real-time terms, it would only be seconds, and despite what some might think, this is hardly a death sentence.

Face it, the heat system is broken, and the overheated mechs without ammo explosions are absurd, broken, and need to be changed; especially for the new players who can't manage heat as well as you or I.

[Diablobo]

Either that or take away the override button. What is it there for if the mech is going to explode so easily? Right now, the mechs explode too quickly. IT IS BROKEN and needs to be fixed or tweaked.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 05:20 AM, said:

It is VERY clear that the rules make it highly unlikely that heat levels will reach the point of internal system damage BEFORE the engine shuts down.

Right now in the game it only takes heat levels of less than 20 or so (rough estimate) for the mech to explode. System damage only occurs at 36. The first point happens then, and that is only assuming that someone rolls perfectly with super high modifiers with pilot skill to avoid a shutdown before that point. Why is it so offensive that a mech shut down before then until the heat dissipates? In real-time terms, it would only be seconds, and despite what some might think, this is hardly a death sentence.

Face it, the heat system is broken, and the overheated mechs without ammo explosions are absurd, broken, and need to be changed; especially for the new players who can't manage heat as well as you or I.

You again show you lack of knowing what exactly is going on in this game. Heat limits last checked was 30+ number of heatsinks. You have to get 100 percent heat to even have the threat of shutting down. Then you have to override that shutdown to risk any crit damage and engine explosion. The mech always shuts down before the explosion happens. It will only blow up if you over ride the shut down. If you are dieing before that something else is killing you.

Heat system is designed to give you plenty of room for firing but to have you actually have to manage you heat when it comes down to it.

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

Either that or take away the override button. What is it there for if the mech is going to explode so easily? Right now, the mechs explode too quickly. IT IS BROKEN and needs to be fixed or tweaked.

To make a last stand, take one more mech with you? I typically have to over ride 2-3 times before I die and that is with ammo in my mech. Over ride is a desperation measure, not a freeby to keep firing.

[DrxAbstract]

You know, we have a saying in my field of employment: "Pain is a sign to change your habits."

If you're overheating and exploding or taking damage from it then YOU are the problematic factor and YOU need to make some changes. Your argument is tantamount to demanding the weather get colder because you're too hot in that coat.

[Ewigan]

Long thread and everything, sorry but: TL;DR

Anyway, they could avoid that situation with anything exploding, and instead just kill the pilot if your mech runs to hot for to long.
If i remember that correctly from all my MW books back then, overheating OF THE PILOT was always a problem

[Diablobo]

Noth, on 06 November 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

You again show you lack of knowing what exactly is going on in this game. Heat limits last checked was 30+ number of heatsinks. You have to get 100 percent heat to even have the threat of shutting down. Then you have to override that shutdown to risk any crit damage and engine explosion. The mech always shuts down before the explosion happens. It will only blow up if you over ride the shut down. If you are dieing before that something else is killing you.

Are you being deliberately stupid, or is it because you are? Since we have already established that the mechs are firing two to three times as fast with only the single rate of heat dissipation, and two medium lasers will cause a mech to shut down even though it has more than enough heat sinks to fire them, we can safely say that once the overheat limit is reached, we are only at 15 or 20 extra heat beyond the normal heat level of the mech. System damage does not occur, and shutdown beyond the control of the pilot is going to happen way before any internal damage takes place. Why is a mech that doesn't have ammo going to blow up? It is not because of internal damage, and no amount of rationalization is going to change the numbers. The math doesn't add up. The heat system is broken, and so is the mech exploding from high heat levels.

[Noth]

Stop treating this like TT. The game does not use heatscale like TT. If this game used the heat system from TT, Heat would be trivial and that is not what the devs want.

Why a mech without ammo going to blow up? It has been explained to you exactly how and why multiple times. IF fail safe were 100 percent safe there would bo no rule in TT for mechs blowing up from heat nor lore supporting it. Failsafes are not 100%. Stop acting like the lore supporting and rules supporting it do not matter. Because all you are doing now is saying that some rules don't matter and lore doesn't matter while cherry picking your own rules and lore. You can't just cherry pick what supports you and ignore everything else.

[Diablobo]

I suppose my main concern is that having mechs overheat is possible and supposed to happen for mechs that carry too many hot weapons, but with proper design, these things should not happen, and having a mech shut down in the middle of a battle is no fun. It is especially no fun when a mech explodes simply from high heat, and the rules EXPLICITLY make this highly unlikely.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

I suppose my main concern is that having mechs overheat is possible and supposed to happen for mechs that carry too many hot weapons, but with proper design, these things should not happen, and having a mech shut down in the middle of a battle is no fun. It is especially no fun when a mech explodes simply from high heat, and the rules EXPLICITLY make this highly unlikely.

You know how to stop exploding in this game? Stop alpha striking and firing every cooldown and stop over riding your shutdown. The problem lies with you and not the game.

[MATEO FALCONE]

The mech chassis will go critical if you flush coolant too many times. Take less weapons and more heat sinks so you dont have to spam your shut-down override. Until forensics guys can inspect your wrecked mech chassis there is absolutely no way to determine whether "hot ammo" or "hot coolant" destroyed your mech while you were over heated.

[Diablobo]

Noth, on 06 November 2012 - 05:46 AM, said:

Stop treating this like TT. The game does not use heatscale like TT. If this game used the heat system from TT, Heat would be trivial and that is not what the devs want.

OH REALLY? Does not use heatscale like TT? Is that why all the weapon heat and damage values have been carried over almost verbatim? Wrong answer. They have broken it, and need to fix it. Already they can't get double heat sinks properly implemented, so I guess I can understand your confusion. I'm not going to sit quietly while they butcher a beloved game system like they have so far.

Edited by Diablobo, 06 November 2012 - 05:52 AM.

[Aym]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 04:55 AM, said:

Mechs do not explode from overheating. If there is no ammo, the mech will simply shut down.
Even if the physics of an engine explosion were possible, which they are not, the conditions of high heat would automatically collapse the reaction processes in the engine before it got to the point of explosion.

I am well aware that with the current game mechanic it is possible to explode from overriding the heat shutdown process, but my point is, is that it is not proper, and it does not follow the Battletech rules. Mechs without ammo NEVER explode from overheating in the Battletech game system. They shut down until the heat dissipates. That's all that happens.

By the way mechs don't ever actually "blow up" in MWO, they're simply damaged with critical components destroyed so that they can no longer function. This is either the engine, cockpit, or both legs. Over heating and then over-riding and then generating more heat causes damage to ALL internal components, and you can just as easily destroy the function of legs and arms before destroying the engine this way, however, sometims over-riding the heat-related shutdown and then generating MORE heat either by firing weapons or moving can cause enough damage to your engine to render your mech inoperable.
TL;DR - You're wrong and L2P

[Tarman]

Nope, you can't save this one Noth, it's either a well-lettered troll or a die-hard mourning the transition off the kitchen table. Either way, vast amounts of sense and proof will avail thee naught! It is sad. They do not want to giant robot, they want to play Rules Lawyer.

[Noth]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

OH REALLY? Does not use heatscale like TT? Is that why all the weapon heat and damage values have been carried over almost verbatim? Wrong answer. They have broken it, and need to fix it. Already they can't get double heat sinks properly implemented, so I guess I can understand your confusion. I'm not going to sit quietly while they butcher a beloved game system like they have so far.

No it doesn't use the heatscale like TT. The fact that the lower limits of heat capacity in this game tend to be as big and the upper limits in TT. The fact that you can run that heat capacity to max before ever shutting down. The fact that the weapons fire faster. The fact that heat numbers have been tweaked and will continue to be tweaked. It's not like TT heatscale at all. They want you to actually have to manage heat not just make a heat neutral mech and spam any time all the time. That is why DHS are not true DHS, it would make heat management too easy.

I say this again. Stop acting like this is TT. It is not. It borrows from TT, but it is not TT. It is also not former Mechwarriors. It is it's own game following the BT lore which is all it needs to do to really be a BT game.

Edited by Noth, 06 November 2012 - 05:58 AM.