218 replies to this topic

[Diablobo]

Like I said, if we are going to abandon a tried and true set of gameplay mechanics because some authors decide to spice up their stories with stupid ideas like having weapon damage spike cockpit heat levels, then we might as well play Stackpole online.

[Diablobo]

CocoaJin, on 06 November 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

If the mech shouldnt explode without ammo, then it shouldnt explode. There are ways to convey the significant threat of overheating without ammo onboard.

Currently, damaging energy weapons themselves is a great alternative for eenrgy boats, not as destructive as an ammo explosion, but it get sthe job done(Ive had cascading weapon destruction before), the current damage to the CT is fine, but Im not sure the overheat damage to the CT should kill the mech, just take it down to red. I'd like to see more sub-system damage, damaged and destruction of heat sinks, damage to the part of the mech housing the heat sinks, damage to actuators, the gyro, the cockpit, even the pilot.

That's not a bad idea, but as it stands now, there is no internal system damage that occurs prior to a complete mech- destroying explosion. A pristine mech will simply go boom, no warning, no damage, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

That's not a bad idea, but as it stands now, there is no internal system damage that occurs prior to a complete mech- destroying explosion. A pristine mech will simply go boom, no warning, no damage, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

Consider it an electrical short, hydraulic fluid rupture, or coolant burst then. In a complex machine, there are any number of systems that can cause catastrophic failure.

[Diablobo]

Bubba Wilkins, on 06 November 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

Consider it an electrical short, hydraulic fluid rupture, or coolant burst then. In a complex machine, there are any number of systems that can cause catastrophic failure.

And these catastrophic failures just happen to occur every time and at the same rate as ammo carrying mechs?
NOPE, sorry, try again.

Edited by Diablobo, 06 November 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[Alfred VonGunn]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

Currently, when running a mech that has no ammo and only energy weapons, it is possible to blow up the mech by overheating.
There is no mechanic in any rule system of the Battletech universe that accounts for this. The only possible way for a mech to explode from overheating is by setting off the ammo. If there is no ammo, the mech simply shuts down until the heat dissipates.
As it stands now, a mech will blow up just as surely with no ammo as it would if it had 10 tons of ammo. This is not proper, and the devs need to address why they have chosen to have mechs explode rather than simply shut down when they overheat and don't any have ammo to cook.
Do the developers seriously mean to say that sophisticated and highly engineered machines are allowed to explode right under the pilots?
They are going to shut down before they explode, and no amount of rationalization of the heat mechanic would explain why we are all running around sitting on bombs that are going to explode if pushed too hard.
The engines are supposed to shut down, not explode.

No but running to hot to long can kill the pilot:) Plus in TT all the other bad things that happen if you stay to hot,,,

[Diablobo]

You are not paying attention Alfred. Mechs can be designed to never overheat.
In MWO, when a mech with two med lasers and 20 heatsinks can explode in Frozen City, something is very, very wrong.
The heat system is flawed, broken, and needs to be fixed. At the very least, mechs without ammo should not be blowing up in the same manner and at the same frequency as those that have ammo. No amount of extreme heat is going to cause complete mech destruction before an engine shutdown that cannot be overridden. Sure, the internal damage that occurs at extreme heat levels has an extremely small chance of causing a crit on the cockpit, but if the dice are going to be rolled for crits, then why can't the dice be rolled to override shutdown? The pilot skill roll shutdown is WAY more likely to occur than the mech-go-boom roll. Right now, they simply explode, and at the exact same frequency and probability as mechs that have tons and tons of ammo. This is not proper, and no amount of justification or rationalization is ever going to change this.

[Alfred VonGunn]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

You are not paying attention Alfred. Mechs can be designed to never overheat.
In MWO, when a mech with two med lasers and 20 heatsinks can explode in Frozen City, something is very, very wrong.
The heat system is flawed, broken, and needs to be fixed. At the very least, mechs without ammo should not be blowing up in the same manner and at the same frequency as those that have ammo. No amount of extreme heat is going to cause complete mech destruction before an engine shutdown that cannot be overridden. Sure, the internal damage that occurs at extreme heat levels has an extremely small chance of causing a crit on the cockpit, but if the dice are going to be rolled for crits, then why can't the dice be rolled to override shutdown? The pilot skill roll shutdown is WAY more likely to occur than the mech-go-boom roll. Right now, they simply explode, and at the exact same frequency and probability as mechs that have tons and tons of ammo. This is not proper, and no amount of justification or rationalization is ever going to change this.

DId you explode from heat or did you wander into one of teh unmarked Out of bounds areas? There are still a few spots on all maps were it thinks your OB and does NOT warn you.. then BOOOOOOMMMMMMM.. I ask because I have only died 3 times in 5 months to heat and all were on either Caustic or River city with Ammo..

Edited by Alfred VonGunn, 06 November 2012 - 02:51 PM.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Diablobo, on 06 November 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

You are not paying attention Alfred. Mechs can be designed to never overheat.
In MWO, when a mech with two med lasers and 20 heatsinks can explode in Frozen City, something is very, very wrong.
The heat system is flawed, broken, and needs to be fixed. At the very least, mechs without ammo should not be blowing up in the same manner and at the same frequency as those that have ammo. No amount of extreme heat is going to cause complete mech destruction before an engine shutdown that cannot be overridden. Sure, the internal damage that occurs at extreme heat levels has an extremely small chance of causing a crit on the cockpit, but if the dice are going to be rolled for crits, then why can't the dice be rolled to override shutdown? The pilot skill roll shutdown is WAY more likely to occur than the mech-go-boom roll. Right now, they simply explode, and at the exact same frequency and probability as mechs that have tons and tons of ammo. This is not proper, and no amount of justification or rationalization is ever going to change this.

It's an easy rule. Exceed the limit and things shut down. Override the limit and things cook to failure. Did you know that very few electrical systems are designed to operate above 90deg C? You know why? Because when temps get that high, the insulation tends to melt exposing the conductors and very bad things happen.

[RAM]

Diablobo, on 05 November 2012 - 04:36 AM, said:

There is no mechanic in any rule system of the Battletech universe that accounts for this.

Actually under the expanded extreme heat rules from TacOps it could happen if also playing with the Engine Explosion rules


RAM
ELH

[Tarman]

This thread is still going on? Jeebus OP, give it up already. I'll mail you a bag of dice and some figurines before your head explodes trying to figure out the difference between tabletop gaming and video gaming.

[PerfectTommy]

So you overheat and override and overheat and your engine takes critical heat damage and breaches and there's a thermal reaction which makes a nice ball of fire for a moment.

How is this not reasonable?




-PT

[Diablobo]

RAM, on 06 November 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Actually under the expanded extreme heat rules from TacOps it could happen if also playing with the Engine Explosion rules


RAM
ELH

Sorry RAM, and sorry to all you physics and lore advocates of engine explosions. Page 36 of the Techmanual EXPLICITLY states that engine explosions DO NOT happen.
The opening statement of the section:

Fusion engine explosions: an urban legend that won’t die. Let’s
see if I can kill it on this planet, at least. Where to start?

CHECK and MATE.

[Diablobo]

Also, the engine explosion rules only apply to catastrophic damage. Four or more critical hits that occur instantly. That is not possible with overheating, expanded heat rules or not.

IT DOES NOT HAPPEN, AND IT SHOULD NOT HAPPEN IN MWO!!

Edited by Diablobo, 06 November 2012 - 11:24 PM.

[Vermaxx]

Look guy, I agree with you but come on eight pages?

It is here to balance the mech that blows up to ammo. You have literally no way to avoid ammo explosion, whereas in tabletop a good roll could do it. Here, it happens every time.

[ebea51]

YES.

Mechs ARE designed to explode under their pilots who are stupid enough to run their mech overhot without waiting for heat to bleed off.
This is called natural selection MechWarrior style.

[Diablobo]

Like I said and will continue to say until the end of time. Mechs do not blow up from overheating! They can take internal damage, sure, but they will reach the point where the override no longer works and the mech won't start up again until the heat is way lower. A properly configured mech shouldn't reach that point, and even if it did, the mech would only be down for a matter of seconds, it will not blow up, and just because the mech is shut down, it does not mean that it automatically dies. What if there is no one around, or those who are are too busy fighting teammates? Heat dissipates, the mech carries on, that is all that can happen.

Everyone keeps saying "it's a video game, not TT" If so, then why do we have a TT turn-based heat system coupled with a video game realtime combat and fire rate? Triple the heat generation and only enough heat dissipation to handle one third of it? That's just stupid on the face of it.
It is like using a super powered engine with a weaker and normal transmission. It is going to fail.

IT IS BROKEN AND NEEDS TO BE FIXED!

[potatoparrot]

I really have nothing better to do if I'm lending my time here.

Diablobo, your issue with the current mechanic is that you believe that MechWarrior: Online is performing a 1:1 translation of the TableTop Heat Management System. I would like you to understand that this is not the case - MechWarrior: Online has used the heat and damage values as a starting point and is performing sequential tweaks to create a balanced system.
The primary indicator that MechWarrior: Online is not following TableTop Heat Management Systems is that there is only one penalty for excessive heat: Death. There are no to-hit penalties, no movement penalties and no sequential shutdown warnings requiring rolls.
In addition to this, the heat scale operates as 30+Heat Sinks is your "Threshold" and crossing this Threshold results in an automated shutdown. Overriding this shutdown deals damage to 'Mech internal structure and critical slots until the 'Mech either falls beneath its Threshold, shuts down or is destroyed. This damage can be extremely rapid - Seemingly (but not) instantaneous and massive - As it is based on the amount over the Threshold the 'Mech has gone.
For example, firing 2xML at the Threshold will cause a heat spike of +8 heat - This is actually quite a lot of heat and will deal significant internal damage very rapidly if the override is used. On the other hand, overriding with only a minor heat excess will deal fractional damage to internals.

I would also like to point out that your 20 heat-sink, 2xML overheat would actually run just short of heat neutral in MechWarrior: Online - A Medium Laser generates 10 heat per 10 seconds if fired continually, requiring 10 heat sinks to dissipate all of that heat. The environmental heat and base movement heat will not be dissipated in this time, causing a gradual increase in your heat level. If you reach the Threshold and fire again, you will exceed the Threshold by 8 heat and incur rapid internal damage, destroying the 'Mech.

It is important to note that this damage is not an engine explosion, nor is the damage engine related. The damage is purely the heat dealing internal damage, which can land crits on the cockpit, the engine, the gyro, the CT or the legs. If any of these points are destroyed, the 'Mech will be destroyed. The engine is not causing this destruction, nor is it exploding. The bang at the CT is the same bang that occurs for every form of 'Mech destruction method. Take out both of a 'Mech's legs and its CT will go bang - It's just a visual indicator that the 'Mech has been destroyed and is not strictly indicative of an engine destruction or even CT coring event.

To recap:
MechWarrior: Online does not use TableTop Heat Management as there are no penalties to heat levels, there is only the Threshold which when crossed and not shut down deals rapid damage to internal systems. Heat is accrued significantly faster in MechWarrior: Online as there is a much higher rate of fire for weapons, to the point where TableTop heat neutral 'Mechs are probably running around three times hotter than usual due to increased rates of fire.
MechWarrior: Online is not attempting to emulate TableTop perfectly, it is using multiple TableTop statistics as a starting point and making adjustments from there; for example Artemis IV operates differently, Double-Efficiency Heat Sinks only dissipate 1.4x the heat of Single to keep heat significant, many weapons deal different damage values and have different heat values, all weapons deal significantly more damage per TableTop turn due to increased rates of fire, Armour has been doubled to compensate and extend fight time.

There are lots of liberties taken - TableTop has been used as a starting point, but this game is not attempting to be a real-time TableTop translation. I'm afraid nothing is broken and nothing needs fixing. 'Mechs with ammunition are in significantly greater peril than 'Mechs without ammunition as the ammunition needs only one critical hit from overheat to be dealt to it for an internal ammo explosion - A 'Mech with no ammunition need has no risk in minor overheat scenarios other than minor internal structure damage.

I hope you read and acknowledge the entirity of this post, I have written it to inform you about underlying game mechanics you may not have been aware of and highlight their roles in the game's balance and design goals.

[Diablobo]

Jings, on 07 November 2012 - 12:25 AM, said:

I really have nothing better to do if I'm lending my time here.

Diablobo, your issue with the current mechanic is that you believe that MechWarrior: Online is performing a 1:1 translation of the TableTop Heat Management System. I would like you to understand that this is not the case - MechWarrior: Online has used the heat and damage values as a starting point and is performing sequential tweaks to create a balanced system.
The primary indicator that MechWarrior: Online is not following TableTop Heat Management Systems is that there is only one penalty for excessive heat: Death. There are no to-hit penalties, no movement penalties and no sequential shutdown warnings requiring rolls.
In addition to this, the heat scale operates as 30+Heat Sinks is your "Threshold" and crossing this Threshold results in an automated shutdown. Overriding this shutdown deals damage to 'Mech internal structure and critical slots until the 'Mech either falls beneath its Threshold, shuts down or is destroyed. This damage can be extremely rapid - Seemingly (but not) instantaneous and massive - As it is based on the amount over the Threshold the 'Mech has gone.
For example, firing 2xML at the Threshold will cause a heat spike of +8 heat - This is actually quite a lot of heat and will deal significant internal damage very rapidly if the override is used. On the other hand, overriding with only a minor heat excess will deal fractional damage to internals.

I would also like to point out that your 20 heat-sink, 2xML overheat would actually run just short of heat neutral in MechWarrior: Online - A Medium Laser generates 10 heat per 10 seconds if fired continually, requiring 10 heat sinks to dissipate all of that heat. The environmental heat and base movement heat will not be dissipated in this time, causing a gradual increase in your heat level. If you reach the Threshold and fire again, you will exceed the Threshold by 8 heat and incur rapid internal damage, destroying the 'Mech.

So you mean to tell me that a mech with only 2 med lasers and 20 heatsinks is supposed to overheat?
I have only one word to describe a game system that allows this: BROKEN

[Superslicks]

Yep I just self destructed twice in 2 games in my jenner because of overheat
4 med lasers 4 double heat sinks, and still i go Bang lol
regards
Superslicks

[potatoparrot]

Diablobo, on 07 November 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

So you mean to tell me that a mech with only 2 med lasers and 20 heatsinks is supposed to overheat?
I have only one word to describe a game system that allows this: BROKEN

After a significant amount of time, yes, it will overheat. It will take some time, even if we assume that you are generating around 5% excess heat per alpha strike it will take 20 full alpha strikes, dealing a potential 200 damage, before the heat hits the threshold.

I'm afraid you can't call it broken as it isn't broken. 200 damage is a lot, not to mention you aren't supposed to be engaging targets for that long anyway. It would take 1 minutes and 20 seconds of non-stop firing to overheat that 'Mech. That is 12 TableTop turns - Quite a long time indeed wouldn't you say? If we try and translate this to TableTop, this 2xML 'Mech is dealing a respectable 16.6 damage per turn, capable of firing for 12 turns unimpeded before needing to cease fire for 1 turn to cool enough that it may resume its 12 turns of unimpeded firing.

Of course it seems broken if you try and directly compare the two because the two cannot be compared as they are using different heat mechanics. Heat in MechWarrior: Online is intended to be a very real, very pressing thing that must be handled. It encourages the pilot to keep a mindful watch over his heat level, to engage targets with low heat and disengage when heat gets too high.
I'm afraid you simply can't take the TableTop mindset to this game - Heat Neutrality is not only a pipe dream, but it is inefficient in this game. Being Heat Neutral means that you are capable of firing forever, but with significantly lower burst damage against individual targets.
Firing forever is lovely if you have an infinitely long window of engagement, but you don't. Which would you prefer to pilot of the following:

Mech A:
Capable of dealing 10 damage per 10 seconds over an infinitely long duration.

Mech B:
Capable of dealing 20 damage per 10 seconds over a 30 second window before ceasing fire for 30 seconds.

Both deal the same 60 damage per minute, but Mech B will trounce Mech A. Why? Well, first of all, if the pair have 60 armour then Mech B is just going to cut Mech A in half in a straight up fight with ease. Mech A will lose every engagement with Mech B despite its Heat Neutrality as Mech B is capable of disengaging at will. Even if the two 'Mechs have identical speeds, Mech B can simply commence evasive torso twisting to provide a difficult target, then resume its burst to defeat Mech A.
Mech A loses.

Even if we reduce Mech B's damage to 15 over 30 seconds, it can still beat Mech A because it has greater burst. Windows of Engagement are what MechWarrior: Online revolves around. Heat Neutrality is useless here as firing forever is not necessary and it is detrimental due to the decreased weapon loadout necessary.

Don't try to design around the increased heat - You won't be able to. At least, not without making a horrible ineffective 'Mech with pitiful damage. Change your tactics.

Adapt or die, as they say.