73 replies to this topic

[Aurien Titus]

Lefty Lucy, on 05 November 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

A friendly with LoS. You add +1 for indirect fire. +1 more if the spotter fires (this is added to the spotter's shooting as well). Then you add the spotters AMM as well as your own AMM and TMM. Discounting the fact that +1 is a significant mod at the top end of the 2d6 bell curve, all these penalties make IDF significantly more difficult. I can get you specific page numbers if you want, but I believe page 111 of total warfare covers it.

The only one I missed was the spotters movement modifier being added, the rest are standard modifiers that every shot has added to it. No modifier for spotters firing. So there isn't much added to a shot by doing IDF. Page 80 FASA BattlteTech Master Rules.

[RAM]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

You do realize it is typically constant damage though right? It's not like a laser where you can twist and reduce the damage quickly and easily. An LRM 5 constantly firing will melt you with indirect fire no matter how spread the damage is because of the shear amount of it. Even LRM 20s have an overwhelming amount of damage in them and can be fire pretty fast. LRMs are the highest dps weapons in the game, with the least risk involved and are the easiest to hit with. Just because they exist as they are does not mean they are balanced or good for the game.

Constant dependent upon recycle you mean? Just like Lasers and other direct fire? You know you can twist during missile barrages?

Yes, each missile that hits does its full damage to where it hits – but all the missiles hit different locations. If you are dying to single LRM5 ‘barrages’ I just do not know what else to say…

It is an IDF thread, not an LRM balance thread.


RAM
ELH

[Noth]

RAM, on 05 November 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Constant dependent upon recycle you mean? Just like Lasers and other direct fire? You know you can twist during missile barrages?

Yes, each missile that hits does its full damage to where it hits – but all the missiles hit different locations. If you are dying to single LRM5 ‘barrages’ I just do not know what else to say…

It is an IDF thread, not an LRM balance thread.


RAM
ELH

I twist during a missile Barrage, they still hit my center torso even though my shoulder is to them. I've been cored by missile barrages that hit my shoulder that I had aimed towards their incoming flight path. THis is because they all don't fly directly into the same spot, they often wrap around the target. My CT was destroyed before my arm was. This only become worse with movement unless you are a very fast mech as it means more of them will either hit your soft back or into your front torsos

I twist while being hit with a laser, the laser spend most of it's damage on my arm. LRMS do massively more dps than lasers, do it from a safe range and without LOS. That guy shooting me with a Laser I can also shoot. I can also throw his shots off with simple terrain changes. I don't have to seek out tall cover and pray it's not a bugged piece of cover. There is so much more you can do to defend yourself from a direct fire user. There is so little you can do to defend yourself from IDF from LRMs, and the LRMs typically do a lot more damage than direct fire weapons.

Edited by Noth, 05 November 2012 - 04:16 PM.

[Britane]

do AMS systems on multiple nearby mechs all damage incoming LRMs on any one target? I know all nearby AMS visually fire, but does a close allies AMS help the target?

[SteelPaladin]

Britane, on 05 November 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

do AMS systems on multiple nearby mechs all damage incoming LRMs on any one target? I know all nearby AMS visually fire, but does a close allies AMS help the target?

Yes. A cluster of AMS-packing mechs can virtually nullify LRM fire as long as their ranges overlap and they don't run out of ammo.

[Khobai]

Quote

do AMS systems on multiple nearby mechs all damage incoming LRMs on any one target? I know all nearby AMS visually fire, but does a close allies AMS help the target?

Yes AMS will go off to protect friendly mechs and multiple AMS together will be more effective.

Although personally I dont advocate using AMS. My thought on AMS is that if my AMS is going off and im getting hit with missiles, I did something wrong anyway. Unlike some people... I have absolutely no problem staying in cover, breaking locks with missile boats, and killing spotter mechs.

[Hikyuu]

LRMs have no issues. I've been against them and i've used them and they almost never kill me unless i'm caught with my pants down in the open. 9/10 LRMs are just a nuisance to be avoided and smart piloting is all it takes to avoid them.

[Noth]

Hikyuu, on 05 November 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

LRMs have no issues. I've been against them and i've used them and they almost never kill me unless i'm caught with my pants down in the open. 9/10 LRMs are just a nuisance to be avoided and smart piloting is all it takes to avoid them.

Smart piloting is just staying in cover. They force you to stay in cover. The dictate the battle. It leads to stale gameplay. I've seen more action and more tactics used in the first 5 minutes of a non LRM heavy match than in all the LRM matches I've been in. LRM heavy play is just flat out boring.

[Khobai]

Quote

Smart piloting is just staying in cover. They force you to stay in cover. The dictate the battle. It leads to stale gameplay.

I agree with the gameplay being stale. Base Assault is a flawed gamemode since it promotes highly defensive play. Generally whoever commits first loses and that often creates standoff situations. But its situations like that where its important to know the rules of the gamemode. For example, weve won matches like that, just by killing one mech on the other team, then hiding until the timer ran down. The other team had to rush us before the clock ran out and we tore them apart.

The only way to eliminate that problem that is for to introduce new game modes that force both teams to play more aggressively instead of just taking up defensive positions and waiting for whoever makes the first mistake. We need a new gamemode with centralized objectives that are located in defensibly poor areas of the map. That way its a brutal slugfest to take the objectives, which is way more fun than a stalemate.

Edited by Khobai, 05 November 2012 - 04:37 PM.

[Grugore]

It's a very rare occurrence where I get killed by LRMs. If you keep dying from LRM fire, then you're doing something wrong. quit blaming your incompetence on a game mechanic. Also, ECM will be available tomorrow. There is nothing wrong with LRMs

[Noth]

Grugore, on 05 November 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

It's a very rare occurrence where I get killed by LRMs. If you keep dying from LRM fire, then you're doing something wrong. quit blaming your incompetence on a game mechanic. Also, ECM will be available tomorrow. There is nothing wrong with LRMs

ECM is not available tomorrow. The point with LRMs is not that you can counter them but that there is such little actual tactics around countering them. you either do it and win, or don't and lose. It's boring and leaves LRMs in a poor spot of being able to dictate the battlefield against everything but specifically design tactics or builds. No other weapon system does this currently. Most games call this being OP or bad for gameplay. They either nerf it or change it so that it enhances gameplay rather than restricts it.

Edited by Noth, 05 November 2012 - 04:42 PM.

[Virtusx]

Grugore, on 05 November 2012 - 04:37 PM, said:

It's a very rare occurrence where I get killed by LRMs. If you keep dying from LRM fire, then you're doing something wrong. quit blaming your incompetence on a game mechanic. Also, ECM will be available tomorrow. There is nothing wrong with LRMs

Just wanted to point out that ECM is in the future section and will not be out tomorrow. They mentioned that it still needs work. But it should be out soon.

Edit: Dang ninja Noth

Edited by Virtusx, 05 November 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[RAM]

Noth, on 05 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I twist during a missile Barrage, they still hit my center torso even though my shoulder is to them. I've been cored by missile barrages that hit my shoulder that I had aimed towards their incoming flight path. THis is because they all don't fly directly into the same spot, they often wrap around the target. My CT was destroyed before my arm was. This only become worse with movement unless you are a very fast mech as it means more of them will either hit your soft back or into your front torsos

I have been fairly forthcoming that LRMs spread damage per missile. Watch their flight path, not merely their incoming arc. There are many counters to them; most discussed in this thread.


RAM
ELH

[Noth]

RAM, on 05 November 2012 - 04:45 PM, said:

I have been fairly forthcoming that LRMs spread damage per missile. Watch their flight path, not merely their incoming arc. There are many counters to them; most discussed in this thread.


RAM
ELH

There are two counters to them. Get cover or group with AMS. That is what every single counter mentioned comes down to. It's not a lot of counters and not a lot of variety. You either do them and win, or don't and lose. Last time I saw a game have such a system in place that was do or don't they changed things to allow more to happen and be so reliant on such hard counters. It ultimately made the game better more varied and longer lasting. That game is also the biggest esport in the world currently.

[Lefty Lucy]

Aurien Titus, on 05 November 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

The only one I missed was the spotters movement modifier being added, the rest are standard modifiers that every shot has added to it. No modifier for spotters firing. So there isn't much added to a shot by doing IDF. Page 80 FASA BattlteTech Master Rules.

If the BMR differs from Total Warfare, then it is incorrect, as the current rules of the game are Total Warfare.

[SteelPaladin]

Khobai, on 05 November 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

I agree with the gameplay being stale. Base Assault is a flawed gamemode since it promotes highly defensive play. Generally whoever commits first loses and that often creates standoff situations. But its situations like that where its important to know the rules of the gamemode. For example, weve won matches like that, just by killing one mech on the other team, then hiding until the timer ran down.

The only way to eliminate that problem that is for them to introduce new game modes that force both teams to play more aggressively instead of just taking up defensive positions and waiting for whoever makes the first mistake.

There's actually some interesting WW1 trench warfare parallels there, a result of advances in weaponry not being matched by advances in countermeasures and mobility.

In MWO's case, we've actually had a retreat in terms of mobility w/engine restrictions. There is only really one "fast" chassis per size category bigger than light, and I've seen several posts arguing that nothing but a small, fast light can really dodge the incoming missiles. Everyone else has to duck into a trench of sorts and hope there's no clipping bug.

I won't lie, my current primary mech is a fairly close to stock CPT-C1 (dropped 2 HS and 2 MLs for 2 more tons of ammo, CASE and 2 SLs), so I love me some missiles (though I do a surprising percentage of my damage w/the lasers for a support mech). I wouldn't mind some adjustments to their agility, though. I'm curious if the game actually models flight paths for each missile, including turn speeds and radii, or if it just "decides" how many missiles will hit and tweaks the graphics to match. They sure as hell shouldn't be pulling 90 degree turns.

My point being, I suppose, is I would rather see better ways to avoid LRMs than seeing their damage output get nerfed. Artillery should be dangerous. Just walking through the rain SHOULD kill you dead. It shouldn't turn into trench warfare, though.

[Grugore]

Virtusx, on 05 November 2012 - 04:42 PM, said:

Just wanted to point out that ECM is in the future section and will not be out tomorrow. They mentioned that it still needs work. But it should be out soon.

Edit: Dang ninja Noth

My bad. But I stand by the rest of my post. I actually LIKE drops with heavy LRM support. I actually had one where we dropped against our own Merc unit, Completely by accident. We had three LRM boats, but they had more. We kept trying to neutralize the LRM's but failed, mainly because we had a pug in our group and one of our Missile boats lost his connection. Both sides agreed it was a good game and we all had fun.

Edited by Grugore, 05 November 2012 - 04:55 PM.

[Sam Slade]

This thread should go on hold until after e-war is introduced; you're all going to go mad as a bag of cats with the Artemis system coming in... wait and see what e-war does first.

[Lefty Lucy]

Kaijin, on 05 November 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

TT purist that you are, surely you wouldn't object to direct-fire being random hit location, assuming it hits at all? No? Thought not. Hypocrite..

I'm definitely not a TT purist. I just appreciate the fact that IDF is an option rather than a primary strategy in the TT game because of its limitations. However, against a pilot who is worth his or her salt, direct fire *is* fairly random, as they will be moving and rotating their torso to take hits on more damaged parts of their mech. Only against stationary targets can you reliably hit a target with a full laser beam on a single location. I find it to be very, very rare to see a dead mech that hasn't taken damage to every location.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I can easily identify a hostile LRM launch and hide after LRMs have been fired. I can also equip AMS.

It's not so esy to spot a bullet, change your course, and hide from it before impact, and bullets can't be shot down.