532 replies to this topic

[Dr Killinger]

Honestly, in TT, DHS were a must, and you were pretty much an ***** for not using them. In MWO, it has it's place, and is a definitite advantage, but can only fit on certain builds. For example, my Swayback definitely benefits from DHS. The advantages are obvious, if not as drastic as in TT. On my Atlas, it would not be worthwhile to try and squeeze DHS onto it, because of the large, crit0heavy weapons on it. And you know what? My build is still completely viable without it. Especially after tonight's patch, DHS will be a definite advantage if you can get them onto your mech, but won't be an IWIN button.

Not as drastic as the TT though, but who the hell wants to see heat-neutral 7mpls Awesomes and Whatever the hell the cool kids are running their Swaybacks in these days? I will concede that PPCs are running very hot with few advantages at the moment, so parhaps they could get a bit of a buff in the form of a reduction in heat, but other energy weapons are scary enough already.

[John Norad]

Tempered, on 05 November 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

You can not translate a turn based pen and paper game into first person mech simulator without making some changes.

I guess everybody agrees with that.
The question is what you change. And whether or not you plan, right from the beginning, to include matchmaking, game modes / objectives and map design into the balancing process.

Apart from that it's a bit paradoxical to state that the current game is mostly ok and TT rules had to be changed, since the current game is actually still very close to the TT rules and the things that don't work properly tend to be the things that were changed.

As I said, it all depends on what exactly you modify.
Medium or Small Lasers can seem too good because hitting fast mechs is difficult, due to netcode issues or client performance, or because the maps are small and there are no open fields, so you always get into a brawl.
Autocannons can be useless because it's hard to hit with them, or there are no side-effects implemented, like knockdown. Or because they are single shot instead of rapid fire.

There are many ways to translate the TT rules into real time. It's not like the way PGI chose is the only one possible.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Rifter, on 05 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

When you start to break stock canon designs such as descibed above to the point where tier two tech is WORSE that tier one tech but still alot more expensive you are now in a place where you are just making a mockery of battletech and the lore involved and should stop using the BT/MW name.

All Mechwarior games are therefore not Mechwarrior games.

Darn, I thought they were MechWarrior games.

[Helmer]

JewBoy, on 05 November 2012 - 09:01 PM, said:

Lag armor still makes small fast moving mechs with small lasers a iWin button. LRMs are now OP and PUG wins are often determined by who has more LRMs. And ACs are still useless, I swaped out the AC20 on my HBK-4G for a Gauss.

And things were 3 times as bad in F+F before some of the tweaking. At least things have moved in a more balanced direction. Hopefully things will keep moving in this direction.



Cheers.

[Rifter]

Prosperity Park, on 05 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

All Mechwarior games are therefore not Mechwarrior games.

Darn, I thought they were MechWarrior games.

In most mechwarrior games tier two tech was better than tier one tech.....

[Sleeping Bear]

Rifter, on 05 November 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

Sorry i missed it, no i do not, that would be to slow paced.

I think they need to rebalance the whole weapons system to come inline with the(on average) 3 second firing rates that they have now. They went wrong when they reduced firing rate but not damage or heat generated, all issues they have been having with balance since then stem from this mistake.

They already reduced the firing rate by 66% on average so they also need to reduce weapon heat and weapon damage by the same amount(roughly 66%), this will keep weapon balance in tact while giving them the faster fire rates they seek.

If you are advocating reducing the damage of weapons by 66% then you need to increase ammo capacity by 66% or you will totally put ammunition dependent weapons at an insurmountable disadvantage to energy weapons.

Edited by Sleeping Bear, 05 November 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[John Norad]

Dr Killinger, on 05 November 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Not as drastic as the TT though, but who the hell wants to see heat-neutral 7mpls Awesomes and Whatever the hell the cool kids are running their Swaybacks in these days?

If there are long range maps where those close range designs would just be slaughtered before they get into range, then where would the problem be?
Medium Pulse Lasers are horribly close range. If you have no problem getting into range every match with a slow as hell Awesome, then something is wrong somewhere else in the concept.
You need one-sided maps to make versatile mechs good. Otherwise you'll just take the route that suits your min-maxing build.

-edit-
Btw 70 heat sinks are needed to negate the heat of 7mpls. Good luck with that. It'd be possible to fire them more often, but that also applies to every other mech.

Edited by John Norad, 05 November 2012 - 09:17 PM.

[Rifter]

Sleeping Bear, on 05 November 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

If you are advocating reducing the damage of weapons by 66% then you need to increase ammo capacity by 66% or you will totally put ammunition dependent weapons at an insurmountable disadvantage to energy weapons.

Right, that is mostly due to doubling the armor, when they doubled armor they should have doubled ammo as well.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Rifter, on 05 November 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

In most mechwarrior games tier two tech was better than tier one tech.....

Pulse lasers aren't consistently "better" than lasers, Clan Tech is often debuffed in ways to make it compreable to IS tech, and other exmples exist where "level 2 Tech" and other fancy techs aren't made Better than standard tech. If they did this in videogames, then half of the game inventory would be unneeded, and that'd be a serious drag.

[rythex]

This game would be better if every weapon fired every 10 seconds imho instead of the ****** gauss small laser/lrm/ssrm spam fest it is now.

Edited by rythex, 05 November 2012 - 09:21 PM.

[JewBoy]

Krivvan, on 05 November 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

What Helmer was referring to was when Swaybacks ran around at high speed with 11 small lasers firing constantly getting instant head killshots.

HBKs cant boat 11 lasers, not even the 4P. And theyre not exactly fast, my 4P has a 250 engine and only goes 81kph.

Edited by JewBoy, 05 November 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[Kaziganthi]

Sean von Steinike, on 05 November 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:

Fire once every 10 seconds, take turns moving, and click a set of dice in your cockpit to see if and where you hit, you know, to stay true to the TT rules.

If you play the Solaris VII rules, the turns are every 3 seconds and everything has been recaculated around that. Heat, weapon recycle times, jump movement.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 05 November 2012 - 09:25 PM.

[Rifter]

JewBoy, on 05 November 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

HBKs cant boat 11 lasers, not even the 4P. And theyre not exactly fast, my 4P has a 250 engine with elite level pilot skills and only goes 81kph.

Yeah calling a hunchback a high speed mech is laughable. Even without the engine nerfs laserbacks were not a issue to deal with, they had very weak rear armor. and the RT with all the lasers was a huge target as well.

[MCXL]

http://mwomercs.com/...r-the-solution/

[Rifter]

MCXL, on 05 November 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

http://mwomercs.com/...r-the-solution/

I read that post last night, and i agree with it. They are going about balancing the game in the totally wrong way.

[Gray Carlyle]

JewBoy, on 05 November 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

HBKs cant boat 11 lasers, not even the 4P. And theyre not exactly fast, my 4P has a 250 engine and only goes 81kph.

HBKs could go over 100 kph in early stages of the CB. If I remember correctly they had 11 energy hardpoints.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I like your Sig, MCXL, it's as if you're either warning people, or complaning to the developers inthe hopes that your sig will raise awareness and cause the peoples to rise up and force the devs to put more manpower behind fixing the netcode. We all know they don't see the hit detection problems, and we know they're not doing anything about it in the upcoming patch... or maybe they are, I forget. no, wait, I remember, they are rolling back their latest changes that caused some problems and are working on new solutions.

Good thing you have the siggy to keep them on their toes.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 05 November 2012 - 09:29 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

Helmer, on 05 November 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

And things were 3 times as bad in F+F before some of the tweaking. At least things have moved in a more balanced direction. Hopefully things will keep moving in this direction.



Cheers.

DHS to 1.4 is not a balanced direction.

Gee, lets just give people ANOTHER reason to use Gauss, LRMs or SSRMs.

:-|

Gray Carlyle, on 05 November 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

HBKs could go over 100 kph in early stages of the CB. If I remember correctly they had 11 energy hardpoints.

Yes and it was fun.

[MCXL]

Prosperity Park, on 05 November 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

I like your Sig, MCXL, it's as if you're either warning people, or complaning to the developers inthe hopes that your sig will raise awareness and cause the peoples to rise up and force the devs to put more manpower behind fixing the netcode. We all know they don't see the hit detection problems, and we know they're not doing anything about it in the upcoming patch... or maybe they are, I forget. no, wait, I remember, they are rolling back their latest changes that caused some problems and are working on new solutions.

Good thing you have the siggy to keep them on their toes.

Never know whats coming next!

[Grey Rabbit]

This is going to sound totally crazy, but bare with me....

Let's see how it works out in combat on the different maps with different heat levels before we go nuts over something that may not even be broken. Your numbers add up on paper, sure, but this remember this is a table top translation and not table top.

-Rabbit