532 replies to this topic

[Windies]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

I have to ask, what amount of armor did the Atlas pilot have on his rear CT armor? What weapons were you using? It sounds to me like you are reacting to the fear of something, not the reality of it. I mean how did DHS affect your balance assessment when you only fired for 3.0 seconds. Isn't that more a question of armor versus damage rather than heat versus time?

[MrPenguin]

Windies, on 06 November 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

I have to ask, what amount of armor did the Atlas pilot have on his rear CT armor? What weapons were you using? It sounds to me like you are reacting to the fear of something, not the reality of it. I mean how did DHS affect your balance assessment when you only fired for 3.0 seconds. Isn't that more a question of armor versus damage rather than heat versus time?

[SteelPaladin]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

Which is precisely why folks have been talking since closed beta about divorcing threshold from dissipation. Lower threshold but higher dissipation lets people make better use of large weapons in staggered fire while keeping crazy large alphas impractical. Instead, you all are (and have been) neutering the ability to have any sort of sustained fire w/large energy weapons because of a fear of huge alphas w/o exploding from heat (a valid fear, to be fair).

The current heat design means you can't tweak heat to address sustained fire issues w/o simultaneously affecting the ability to front-load alphas. It seems like that inability to move the dials on those two items independently is a big source of the current balance woes.

Nobody (sensible) wants 6 PPC alphas (which you can already currently pull off anyway, if you want to shutdown every time you unload). Folks just want classic PPC-as-primary-weapon designs to be viable, and they're currently not. A Marauder in MWO would be a joke because, instead of an AC/5 and 2 PPCs as its primary load out w/MLs for backup up close, it would be an AC/5 and 2 MLs primary (a pathetic primary arrangement for a 75-ton mech) w/2 PPCs that it can fire once in a while (and nowhere near the fire rate that would justify having 2 of them at all).

Edited by SteelPaladin, 06 November 2012 - 12:26 PM.

[Squidhead Jax]

MrPenguin, on 06 November 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Well that's a stupid response. He's asking for details so that a proper discussion can be had.

Seems to me like the devs started panicking about carrying capacity, as opposed to dissipation. A lot of community suggestions have revolved around being perfectly fine with nerfing DHS overheat capacity and nerfing it hard instead of dissipation. Why don't they give that a shot?

[EyeOne]

Vexgrave Lars, on 06 November 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Not really.. lot of people, including you, already invested not just money but a ton of time in this. I'll take overly "dramatic" to indifferent trash any day, particularly when I'm spending my money (I hope eventually) on something.

Ya know what? I've had enough of that. People around here, "including you", are discounting Founder's opinions on anything and everything because they are founder's. My opinion is what it is, and you can't toss it out of the equation because I'm a Founder.

Good for you, you are concerned for stuff. So, since my money is spent I don't care about any of it? Does that make any since to you?
Good for you that you are spending money later! Congrats, really! Well, I might be spending money later too. And to think that I'm not concerned about the development of this game because I've spent some already is the dumbest thing I've heard. Of course I care about the development and I hope that it does well. But arguing about how TT rules apply to a computer game in beta is absurd. On top of that, we haven't even used the rules than you are complaining about.

I need a new job that doesn't bore me so much that I come to this stupid place everyday.

[MustrumRidcully]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

An Atlas is rarely "fully armoured" from behind. What weapon loadout did you use that could overheat someone with regular heat sinks in 3 seconds, if I may ask? Did you equip 2 PPCs? Are you aware that the heat capacity of a mech is - even without DHS - at least 40? That would require you to produce 43 heat in 3 seconds to overheat.

And if you notice that the heat threshold is the problem - why not take the option where you reduce the heat threshold with double heat sinks? Not feasible to implement in a week?

I really suggest you and the designers to take a deep look into the math and balancing threads. There are many well founded ideas around here.

And we have to realize - if we upgrade the tech levels at all, damage output will get more. So maybe double armour will not be enough in the end. Or maybe it would have been better to do the logical thing - if we want table top weapons not just fire every 10 seconds, but 2, 3, or 4 times in 10 seconds, we need to also divide their damage output, heat output and ammo consumption by 2, 3 or 4...

[MrPenguin]

Squidhead Jax, on 06 November 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Well that's a stupid response.

Ironic coming from you.

[Sandpit]

Squidhead Jax, on 06 November 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Well that's a stupid response. He's asking for details so that a proper discussion can be had.

Seems to me like the devs started panicking about carrying capacity, as opposed to dissipation. A lot of community suggestions have revolved around being perfectly fine with nerfing DHS overheat capacity and nerfing it hard instead of dissipation. Why don't they give that a shot?

This isn't a proper discussion. This thread's title is nothing but a troll hunt. People are complaining about issues in the game that
A.) DEVs know about and are adressing http://mwomercs.com/...-command-chair/
Have multiple threads already in existence about
C) Let people argue over whether this is actually a BTech game

The devs aren't giving them a shot because the devs are designing the game. You don't have to like their ideas, you don't have to play the game that is developing here. It gets old hearing about how every time they change something it's the doom of dooms and MWO is now dead in the water and won't make it. Then the exact same people are back next week complaining about the new changes and how THESE changes will kill the game.
Bottom line is you can't please everyone and the best ideas are the ones that find the middle ground (which is ironic given DHS are 1.4 in the middle) that pleases the most people

[Solis Obscuri]

[Lanessar]

Garth Erlam, on 06 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

I'm not a designer, but I will say that DHS at 2.0 heat allowed me to core a fully armoured Atlas from behind in roughly 3 seconds. In my Jenner. Keep in mind that the 1.4 times boost isn't just to cooling DOWN, it's a boost to heat THRESHOLD as well.

This was shades of the SL Jenner of F+F beta past, and we reacted to it quickly, because well, we'd already seen what happens.

And remember everyone - we're still open beta, so weapon changes will still occur.

This is not possible against a stock atlas with a jenner using 6xML - only 30 points of damage in a 3-second cycle. If they stripped the rear armor, then yes, but I can do the same with a Gauss on a Raven.

Or, to use a more standard build, a 3xSSRM Commando + Med Laser. And those won't need DHS to do it.

Edited by Lanessar, 06 November 2012 - 12:27 PM.

[Kraven Kor]

EyeOne, on 06 November 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

Ya know what? I've had enough of that. People around here, "including you", are discounting Founder's opinions on anything and everything because they are founder's. My opinion is what it is, and you can't toss it out of the equation because I'm a Founder.

Good for you, you are concerned for stuff. So, since my money is spent I don't care about any of it? Does that make any since to you?
Good for you that you are spending money later! Congrats, really! Well, I might be spending money later too. And to think that I'm not concerned about the development of this game because I've spent some already is the dumbest thing I've heard. Of course I care about the development and I hope that it does well. But arguing about how TT rules apply to a computer game in beta is absurd. On top of that, we haven't even used the rules than you are complaining about.

I need a new job that doesn't bore me so much that I come to this stupid place everyday.

Listen, we are founders, and thus we are to blame for everything wrong in the game.

We kick puppies too.

And when the "Other Guy" wins tonight in America?

Yup, that's the fault of premades and founders as well.

[MrPenguin]

Kraven Kor, on 06 November 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

Listen, we are founders, and thus we are to blame for everything wrong in the game.

We kick puppies too.

And when the "Other Guy" wins tonight in America?

Yup, that's the fault of premades and founders as well.

Well, you just admitted to it.

[Lootee]

One of the foundations of BattleTech is there are 3 types of weapons.

Ballistics, missiles, energy.

Each class of weapon has its own quirks, advantages and disadvantages. But all three are viable.
You should be able to make a mech with nothing but ballistics, one with nothing but missiles and one with nothing but energy and still end up with a mech that performs similar to the others.

That's why each class of weapon has individual weapons for short, medium, long range. The problem now is that missiles and ballistics are in an ok place but energy is very lacking due to the jacked up heat system.

I bet a good 90% of energy weapons used right now are small and medium lasers. Which points out that energy is not viable at long range. Which makes this game fundamentally unlike Battletech.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 06 November 2012 - 12:36 PM.

[wanderer]

Squidhead Jax, on 06 November 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Well that's a stupid response. He's asking for details so that a proper discussion can be had.

Seems to me like the devs started panicking about carrying capacity, as opposed to dissipation. A lot of community suggestions have revolved around being perfectly fine with nerfing DHS overheat capacity and nerfing it hard instead of dissipation. Why don't they give that a shot?

And this wouldn't cause tears. Leave DHS overheat capacity matching SHS, but cooling at proper 2.0. Does wonders for reducing alpha strikes, but doesn't render DHS useless pieces of junk for larger designs.

[WildeKarde]

This won't work the same way as TT. We simply match mechs different as in TT you could spend less BV on a 3025 atlas as it was cheaper letting you get other mechs that were better on your side, but currently a atlas with SHS and AC20 is equal to the same one with DHS and gauss. Even the basic counting up tonnage per side made it more of a challenge than an atlas being the same as an awesome. SHS are only viable when they are giving you a benefit in either being cheaper to repair or your mech is cheaper balancing a game than the DHS version.

Another point for TT is that you could miss, you took a risk alpha striking in TT as the dice could be cruel. An LRM20 averaged only 12 missiles hitting, or 9 from an LRM15. You had to make a call on that extra heat as it took a full 10 secs under your heat sinks to dissipate.

Having DHS at 1.4 doesn't benefit the bigger weapons or the tier 2 assault mechs, an ER PPC was a big increase in heat from a PPC so DHS were needed to balance it. But it was rare you were fighting at 1 hex range in TT, in MWO that seems to be the norm. You could even spend a whole game in TT not moving and shooting at long range to win, and not getting heat from moving.

The 1.4 rating on DHS doesn't benefit the bigger mechs as much as lighter ones who can take the same small laser loadouts but just keeping shooting longer without overheating. The big lumbering assault mech, who in TT should hit about 50% of the time, will probably miss that small mech with anything of real damage. Even the LLaser will be minor damage to the light mech. The assault mech will probably be getting high on the heat but the light mech won't be.

The heat system now benefits weapon either low in heat or missile based which will hit with everything. Heavy and assault mechs should be able to take out mediums and light unless they are ganged up on (or get unlucky) but right now a light is a risk to an assault. Less risky to tackle another assault mech.

There are quite a few mechs not in MWO that would not be able to fight in stock config with DHS at 1.4.

[Sandpit]

PanchoTortilla, on 06 November 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

One of the foundations of BattleTech is there are 3 types of weapons.

Ballistics, missiles, energy.

Each class of weapon has its own quirks, advantages and disadvantages. But all three are viable.
You should be able to make a mech with nothing but ballistics, one with nothing but missiles and one with nothing but energy and still end up with a mech that performs similar to the others.

That's why each class of weapon has individual weapons for short, medium, long range. The problem now is that missiles and ballistics are in an ok place but energy is very lacking due to the jacked up heat system.

I bet s good 90% of energy weapons used right now are small and medium lasers. Which points out that energy is not viable at long range. Which is makes this game fundamentally unlike Battletech.

Swaybacks would disagree with you. My 4Sp would disagree with you. I can chain fire 4MLs quite regularly and not overheat. My Awesome would disagree as well. 3 PPCs in chain fire and a little self-discipline not to go,
"DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE YOU BASTAGES!!! FIRE FIRE FIRE! PEW PEW PEW!" and alpha strike every time my weapons recycle do wonders for heat management

[Vexgrave Lars]

EyeOne, on 06 November 2012 - 12:18 PM, said:

Ya know what? I've had enough of that. People around here, "including you", are discounting Founder's opinions on anything and everything because they are founder's. My opinion is what it is, and you can't toss it out of the equation because I'm a Founder.

Good for you, you are concerned for stuff. So, since my money is spent I don't care about any of it? Does that make any since to you?
Good for you that you are spending money later! Congrats, really! Well, I might be spending money later too. And to think that I'm not concerned about the development of this game because I've spent some already is the dumbest thing I've heard. Of course I care about the development and I hope that it does well. But arguing about how TT rules apply to a computer game in beta is absurd. On top of that, we haven't even used the rules than you are complaining about.

I need a new job that doesn't bore me so much that I come to this stupid place everyday.

Because you paid doesn't make you any better than the guys who hung on to their cash. Particularly those of us who have watch this degrade since DAY 1 of closed beta.. like me.. or the 20 years of playing games related to this franchise.

All it makes you is a few dollars shorter and in the same boat as the rest of us, waiting to see if PGI is going to hat trick some fixes or continuing the course of simplifying the game into boredom and repetition.

I do not discount opinions One Eye, but the suggestion that people should not voice opinions passionately for the effort, let alone the money involved, I'd have to beg you to reconsider.

I said in July or July that they could have made all this simpler by some very simple expectation changes, naming convention changes. Promptly ignored, sans reason. Your speaking from frustration, and I don't blame you or anyone else.

Sometimes its just good to vent.. go ahead.. let it out. We get a new patch in roughly 20 minutes and can start all over with whats wrong this time. I would expect you to be more driven in your drive to see the job done right, not less so.

You nor your opinion are dismissed, I want us to all be counted and stand for it!

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 06 November 2012 - 12:43 PM.

[Purlana]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

My Awesome would disagree as well. 3 PPCs in chain fire and a little self-discipline not to go,
"DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE YOU BASTAGES!!! FIRE FIRE FIRE! PEW PEW PEW!" and alpha strike every time my weapons recycle do wonders for heat management

If Awsomes could mount GR's your build would be outright inferior.

Edited by Purlana, 06 November 2012 - 12:42 PM.

[Lootee]

Sandpit, on 06 November 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

Swaybacks would disagree with you. My 4Sp would disagree with you. I can chain fire 4MLs quite regularly and not overheat. My Awesome would disagree as well. 3 PPCs in chain fire and a little self-discipline not to go,
"DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIE YOU BASTAGES!!! FIRE FIRE FIRE! PEW PEW PEW!" and alpha strike every time my weapons recycle do wonders for heat management

Can you read ? Are you really trying to say your hbk with medium lasers is effective at long range ? Did you not read the part where I said almost all energy weapons are either small lasers or mediums because those are the only reasonably viable choices ? Try some ERPPCs and ERLL and get back with us.

[Sandpit]

PanchoTortilla, on 06 November 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Can you read ? Are you really trying to say your hbk with medium lasers is effective at long range ? Did you not read the part where I said almost all energy weapons are either small lasers or mediums because those are the only reasonably viable choices ? Try some ERPPCs and ERLL and get back with us.

Apparently YOU can't read. See the part about Awes and 3 PPCs? See that? It's right there in the part you carefully quoted. So I'm back with you now sir.