425 replies to this topic

[twibs]

DHS are still usefull. I just upped my K2 heatsinks to double KNOWING it would go to 1.4

If you have the tonnage, use SHS (heavy and up)
If you have the slots, use DHS (up to some lighter heavies)

[luckyhobbit]

at least with streaks you had to get in close and actually aim to get the lock - now you can just lrm everyone from a mile away regardless of cover - way to go breaking the game! Expect all the fed up streak cats to be using lrms now - at least you got a chance to fight back before...

[Deonmag]

SSRM are still OP when used against lights. So even more nerf woun't be too much. Especialy after nerfing lasers.

[Egomane]

Onyx Rain, on 06 November 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

What I'd like to see....(assuming I haven't been witnessing bugs/flukes)

Strk2's only target head, side cores, and ct.... always hitting unless blocked by building or a very extreme angle.

If they ignore arms and legs, they become the overpowered tools they were before.

EnginesPurr, on 06 November 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

These are supposed to crunch Lights like cookies and they have trouble hitting them?

Nope, they are not! That is a common misconception due to former implementations of this weaponsystem. There should be no weapon system designed to counter a specific type of mech. It would throw balance out of the door.

I agree that the missles should not miss a target once they locked on. I hope this will get fixed in the future. But they should never get their former accuracy again.

[Saros69]

I don't know why they don't just make streaks like... aim for where you aimed when you clicked fire.
note: IIRC MW4 did something like this? I seem to recall aiming streaks at specific body parts.

And let collision do the rest. If I aimed for your CT and you twisted your torso and hence your arm is in the path, my streaks would still be flying towards your CT but hit your arm.

They should not circle around and magically hit your CT, which is what I believe they were somehow doing.

This would promote taking good shots, good angles, and the downside is you need lock + less damage/ton compared to SRMs and I think that's a fair trade given how SRMs aren't very good at targetting specific areas right now.

Edited by Saros69, 07 November 2012 - 04:01 AM.

[Egomane]

Saros69, on 07 November 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

I don't know why they don't just make streaks like... aim for where you aimed when you clicked fire.
note: IIRC MW4 did something like this? I seem to recall aiming streaks at specific body parts.

And let collision do the rest. If I aimed for your CT and you twisted your torso and hence your arm is in the path, my streaks would still be flying towards your CT but hit your arm.

And we would be straight back at the start, were Streak SRM were to strong. But now you can even aim them at the cockpit or previously opened up locations. Not a good solution!

[Lykaon]

IronGoat, on 06 November 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

i also have seen this my streak cat which if given a fair shot could get kills is now like an LBX10 cat. i get damage everywhere but have no control over where and its never enough in one spot to do serious damage. that combined with the horrid slow reload on SSRMS and the fact you cant really have enough on any build to do serious DPS has just boned another weapon.
GOD PGI STOP F*CKING AROUND AND GO BACK TO STRAIGHT CANON STATS!!!!!

ANOTHER balancing issue NO ONE was actually complaining about

i love that they balance things the majority think are fine but DONT fix things we all b*tch about..

I for one was concerned with the way streaks were preforming prior to the patch.A Streakcat was essentially packing an AC30 with CT homming ammo.A commando or centurion was kicking out 15 damage a volley like a short range gauss rifle with CT homming ammo.

It was way to much to give any build.You were vertually garenteed a Streakcat on every drop and a very good chance of tripple streak commandos or Cents.Why? because it was a no brainer to use these builds because they had inflated kill potential for a weapon that required three things and none of them are related to gunnery skills.

1) get into range 270m.
2) aim vaguely towards your target and lock.
3) Spam until you win because nearly every shot will hit CT.

I have yet to test the post nerf SSRMs mainly due to the current LRM issue making it difficult to test weapons that require you to not be under a rock

So yeah I was "complaining" about an easily exploited weapon system.

[Corrado]

streak cats are still deadly but are not as effective as before. if your aiming skill sucks so much you need a streak cat to play, fine. but cannot be the most rewarding build at the same time.. so...

[Blackfoot]

While I agree streaks always targeting CT needed to be fixed, they are totally useless now. Why not make it like MW4 where if you are aiming at a mechs legs, they target the legs, if you aim at arms, torsos, etc, they target those areas. Why cant something like this be implemented?

[Saros69]

Egomane, on 07 November 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

And we would be straight back at the start, were Streak SRM were to strong. But now you can even aim them at the cockpit or previously opened up locations. Not a good solution!

Aiming does not equal actually hitting. Get what I mean?

And you can limit my aim by maneuvering, how is this not good? Streaks don't do amazing damage, you can see where the fella is aiming for and maneuver/twist accordingly.

Also, you don't always aim precisely where you intend to aim do you? Either you're extremely godly or I'm really bad at aiming. Small stuff like terrain changes is enough to throw my aim off, let alone a mech that's moving around and twisting and turning and changing speed.

Blackfoot, on 07 November 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

While I agree streaks always targeting CT needed to be fixed, they are totally useless now. Why not make it like MW4 where if you are aiming at a mechs legs, they target the legs, if you aim at arms, torsos, etc, they target those areas. Why cant something like this be implemented?

Ah, so it WAS MW4 that had this.

And yes, that's what I was saying, that seemed to be a good system.

I don't recall boating Streaks in MW4, it seemed to be pretty well balanced, aim vs damage vs weight vs heat wise.

Edited by Saros69, 07 November 2012 - 05:05 AM.

[Egomane]

Saros69, on 07 November 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

Aiming does not equal actually hitting. Get what I mean?

And you can limit my aim by maneuvering, how is this not good? Streaks don't do amazing damage, you can see where the fella is aiming for and maneuver/twist accordingly.

Also, you don't always aim precisely where you intend to aim do you? Either you're extremely godly or I'm really bad at aiming. Small stuff like terrain changes is enough to throw my aim off, let alone a mech that's moving around and twisting and turning and changing speed.

I am not so good, that I can hold my aim on the location I want to hit, the whole time a laser fires, but I do know, that I will hit the location I aimed at, when I pulled the trigger. For a streak I don't have to hold the trigger, but simply watch it fly. Streaks are fast, and avoiding an already incoming streak on short range is close to impossible. At longer distance it is not a problem.

If you give streaks the ability to aim at a specific location, all slow moving mechs will get slaughtered by headshots.

[Totnacht]

Dear Developers,

with many changes you brought to this patch, which are widely discussed, there is one special thing, with which you rolled in the guillotine for the game and started pulling up the blade.

Warhammer Online once did so, and I guess you now how that ended, and I really don't want to happen the same to this game.

I'm talking about the new max group size feature and the matchmaking.

People are asking you the following on the forums for just some time :

"Please stop full premade against pug"

I guess, that's a good idea, because the 8 lone wolfs, don't like to get shot up in 20 seconds by an organized group of 8.

So you reacted, and said : "Max group size 4"

But this won't fix the problem at all.

Just imagine, these 4 people with communication programs are together as strong as 8 pugs without, because they can organize properly, they have a plan.

What will happen now :

an example :

red side : premade of 4, 4 lone wolfs
blue side : 8 lone wolfs

who will win ?

The chances are 75 to 25 for red, thats no fun to play for 8 people

another example :


red side : premade of 4, another premade of 4
blue side : 8 lone wolfs

The lone wolfs will get crushed, let this happen too many times for casual players and they're off to somewhere else.

You loose money and we loose friends to play with.


Here is an really EASY fix :

- max group size for joining in games with lone wolfs : 3, three people can have a fast and fun game.

- after a group size of 4, let only join 3 other premades to that game, so it's even

OR

- with a group of 4, 5,6,7 or 8 people, find another fitting premade of the same amount of players.

There's surely another possible organisation without stomping lone wolfs, which are surely 80 % of the playerbase, don't drive them away please, let us play together in harmony.

Best regards,

Totnacht

[Ravenholme]

Ah ok thanks for clarifying, i just thought the external double heat sinks would count as 2 instead of 1 for the total of 10. Say for the XL 210 it says 2 External Heatsinks

[Saros69]

Egomane, on 07 November 2012 - 05:16 AM, said:

I am not so good, that I can hold my aim on the location I want to hit, the whole time a laser fires, but I do know, that I will hit the location I aimed at, when I pulled the trigger. For a streak I don't have to hold the trigger, but simply watch it fly. Streaks are fast, and avoiding an already incoming streak on short range is close to impossible. At longer distance it is not a problem.

If you give streaks the ability to aim at a specific location, all slow moving mechs will get slaughtered by headshots.

Give them spread, lower their damage, reduce their flight speed, reduce their turning speed.

And again, please bear in mind that clicking on a spot should not guarantee a hit on that spot, it merely means that the missiles are going to fly towards that destination. Streaks are not and should not be magical teleporting missiles that appear and explode exactly at where you click. Streaks are also not and should not be instant hit 2000-speed projectiles.

If I aim at a mech that is circling me clockwise, and facing me, pewpewing with lasers and I aim + lock + click at their center torso with streaks, chances are the streaks will hit their right arm/torso. I really hope you see what I mean here. This is what I hope will be the implementation of streaks. However, if I choose to aim at his left arm, I have a higher chance of hitting the center torso. Of course, it's a lot harder to aim at the left arm than the torso.

If my target is charging (slowly) straight at me, and during his weapon cooldowns, continue to stare at me, and I shoot straight at his head, why should I not be able to hit it? Am I, as a streak user, to be penalised for my target's lack of defensive maneuvers? Why should SRM users have an easier time to hit slower targets than me? Shouldn't I have an advantage at targetting with streaks? Isn't that the whole point of, I don't know, HOMING MISSILES?

You mentioned slow targets, let's pick an Atlas. If I'm also in an Atlas using Streaks, you can approach me with your torso twisted sideways and all I'd hit would be your shoulder/arm (unless I have some kind of missile hardpoint sitting like a hat on my Atlas head). The streaks are not going to go "hey, look, his arm is blocking my destination, I'll just turn to that side and come around from the side". They're going to go to the XYZ coordinates that they were launched at and they're going to smash into whatever gets in the way.

If I'm in anything less than an Atlas, I'm pretty sure I'd be too short for my missiles to hit anything but your shoulder and maybe your hip/legs/torso. But to hit the head? I'd have to be standing on high ground, and what's wrong with me having an advantage on high ground? That's logical and tactical to me.

Why not instead of saying how streaks would not work, try to think of ways it would work?

Also, I don't know if it's my lag, or just a graphical glitch, but I do notice streaks missing even before this patch. They explode behind my target if they are circling very fast, e.g. Jenners. It seems that you can sort of out turn the streaks. And I don't mean the "fly straight without homing" type of streak. The streak turns but somehow it doesn't quite reach. So I'm pretty sure just changing the turn speed of the streaks a little would make a significant difference.

And yes, you are in my book, godly. When I shoot lasers at a target, I almost never know where it's going to hit. Unless both of us are standing still. I generally aim at the chest and hope it hits a torso rather than arms. I don't bother aiming for the head as I've never been rewarded for doing so. Yes, I suck at aiming, I can't seem to learn how to compensate for lag/mech speed and I use streaks to do SOME damage and have fun. Do you wish to ban me from the game then? I guess my money isn't good enough then? My lowly 200 damage and spending 50k on streak reloads are apparently too overpowered.

I might not have to hold the trigger on streaks, but you don't have to get a lock for your lasers every time. If I want to sustain fire, I'd have to sustain my lock, and that means showing my torso to the target.

Sure there are mechs with arms that allow you to aim at the extreme angles, but going off the angle just a bit means you lose lock, since you're at the extreme end and can't twist your arms any more. So you can't really use the extreme angle of your arms to aim all the time either.

If the target has any sort of brains, he'd just have to jink once to get me to move my torso to keep lock on him, and bam he has aim on my torso while I'm still deciding if I should go for the lock or take the hit on my arm and pray he is not chain firing and keeping other weapons in reserve for my torso. Teammates will also be able to circle around me and hit my back armor and I'd have to abandon my approach, having done little to no damage, and taken more damage.

Dude, have you even used streaks for a decent amount of time? Have you tried to arm aim with CTRL+mouse and can't see where you're running and run into a hill/rock and lose your lock? Have you continuously lost lock to a target that's weaving around obstacles, and ended up getting chipped to death by his lasers while you can't even blind fire Streaks straight ahead without a lock? Have you ever had to abandon a target and change position because keeping your lock on him would mean exposing your rear armor which is already stripped to another enemy?

And ffs, streaks are 270m, just pay attention to the paperdoll and don't approach them without unloading your longer ranged weapons. Or I don't know, maybe call out the target to your team. Lots of mechs have loadouts to deal with streaks.

This is the limit of my poor English writing skills. I hope someone comprehends me for once.

[Egomane]

Saros69, on 07 November 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

[snip]

Thank you for calling me godlike. I believe I am slightly above average, as there are still lots of players way better then me. Some call me real good, some call me real bad. To tell the truth: I don't care either way, as long as the game is fun.

I didn't want to attack you or your playstyle. I just wanted to point out the weakness in your original suggestion. You did change it in this follow up post to adress it. Your modified suggestion is much better, but I still belief it is the wrong way to fix the streaks. As I currently have no better solution, I will not further adress it.

I have played every build in the book and know the available systems in and out. The ability to ignore arms and legs, made streaks strong and feared. There were a lot of complaints about them for a reason (just like there are for LRMs). You wont find a post were I am complaining about them (or LRMs, or Gauss, or any other overpowered build of the week) though, because I work on finding ingame solutions to those problems, instead of posting a flame about them in the forum. So far I have succeeded in all cases. Most of the time, with the help of my friends.

I do point out my view of things and I adress weaknesses in proposed solutions, but most don't want to listen if their super solution is attacked. You did listen, that is why I take the time to adress your post once more and try to lift some of the hostility I read in your words.

[Dagger6T6]

streaks shouldn't be heading for the ct everytime... but streaks should hit the target... I was ok with the target location being randomized.

but streaks are trash right now, because half of them miss if fired in a large volley

streaks need to be some where in the middle of where they were, and how they are now.

[Tice Daurus]

I can't believe the amount of people who can't see the complete picture on this. Here's the real problem on this:

Last patch...we were given DHS. However...the problem is...there was an engine bug which caused DHS to be counted as SINGLE heat sinks. SINGLE. So we were never given a true test model to properly test double heat sinks. Then in this patch, they fixed the DHS heat sink engine bug. But then they nerf DHS down to 140 percent so they only give 40 percent more heat efficiency that singles.

Anyone seeing the problem here yet?

We NEVER got a chance to properly test the Double Heat Sinks to give the DEV's true data to see if DHS was too overpowered or not. So how can the DEV's go and nerf DHS with flawed data? I don't understand this whatsoever. I could see if it DHS HAD worked properly in the last patch, but they didn't, so the data they got is FLAWED.

Also, we never got a real reason as to why DHS was nerfed from PGI.

The true problems are this...

- DHS not properly tested with correct data to make a determination.
- The heat system has still not been fully looked at in my opinion to where it doesn't give the proper effects according to TT rules like they should, i.e, more heat, less movement, less torso twisting ability, HUD flickering and targeting causing problems, longer RoF time for weapons reliant on heat, like energy weapons, heat disappation rate.

Until these problems are addressed by PGI, this game has major flaws and will continue to do so. Now, as a Legendary Founder, I'm not asking for a refund on this. I'm not threatening to leave. That's what a child does, throwing tantrums and crying and whining to get their way.

I'm calling on PGI to please take a hard and serious look on this. Otherwise the problems will continue to get worse.

[Saros69]

Egomane, on 07 November 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Thank you for calling me godlike. I believe I am slightly above average, as there are still lots of players way better then me. Some call me real good, some call me real bad. To tell the truth: I don't care either way, as long as the game is fun.

I didn't want to attack you or your playstyle. I just wanted to point out the weakness in your original suggestion. You did change it in this follow up post to adress it. Your modified suggestion is much better, but I still belief it is the wrong way to fix the streaks. As I currently have no better solution, I will not further adress it.

I have played every build in the book and know the available systems in and out. The ability to ignore arms and legs, made streaks strong and feared. There were a lot of complaints about them for a reason (just like there are for LRMs). You wont find a post were I am complaining about them (or LRMs, or Gauss, or any other overpowered build of the week) though, because I work on finding ingame solutions to those problems, instead of posting a flame about them in the forum. So far I have succeeded in all cases. Most of the time, with the help of my friends.

I do point out my view of things and I adress weaknesses in proposed solutions, but most don't want to listen if their super solution is attacked. You did listen, that is why I take the time to adress your post once more and try to lift some of the hostility I read in your words.

I did not "modify" my suggestion. I merely clarified it because (1) I wasn't detailed enough (2) you appear have misunderstood me and I did not want others to share your misunderstanding.

Did I address your concern with my previous post?

edit: btw, please do discuss why the detailed suggestion is still weak.

Edited by Saros69, 07 November 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[WardenWolf]

xenoglyph, on 06 November 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

Lasers are fine on lights. My Jenner runs 4xMLAS just fine after the patch. It's the assaults we're concerned about.

This appears to be correct - light and even medium mechs mostly rely on the in-engine heatsinks, so while those aren't the full 2x they are still better than they were before the patch. What is taking a hit is the bigger mechs, where many are worse off today than they were before yesterday morning (ie they were better off with 2x added sinks and 1x in the engine). This is compounded because medium and large pulse lasers were often found on those bigger mechs, and now are also less viable (though rightly so, compared to other lasers).

My questions still stand, though, and I would love to see some Dev feedback about them... hint hint...

[Josef Nader]

My heat disappation rates pre-patch in my Atlas with 14 in-engine DHS and 3 external DHS: 1.49
10 + (7 x 2) = 24
My heat disappation rates post-patch in my Atlas with 14 in-engine DHS and 3 external DHS: 1.34
17 x 1.4 = 23.8

The big plus side to me is that they buffed the AC20. Once the missiles get fixed, I'll be a very, very happy Brawler Atlas.