425 replies to this topic

[ChaosTh3ory]

I am fine with what they done.

All you need to do is take more care of your heat tbh.
Its not hard and takes more skill.
Also you will proberly find that this was not the final change to them anyway so learn to vent your anger outside and not here.

[whiteknight]

AntharPrime, on 07 November 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Were the Innershpere double heatsinks not 2 slots and 2 tons, and the clan double heatsink 1 slot and 1 ton? The was an experimental corrosive liquid cooled double heatsink that was 3 slots.

No, IS Double Heatsinks were always 1 ton, 3 crits, Clan doubles were 1 ton, 2 crits

[Bishop Steiner]

AntharPrime, on 07 November 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Were the Innershpere double heatsinks not 2 slots and 2 tons, and the clan double heatsink 1 slot and 1 ton? The was an experimental corrosive liquid cooled double heatsink that was 3 slots.

eh. No.

Clan Double Heatsinks are 2 criticals, 1 ton, Inner Sphere are 3 Critical, and 1 ton. Always has been. Of course they also were DOUBLE, not 1.4........

[EvangelionUnit]

but now the engine heat sinks work with 1.4 instead of 1 so you get 10*1.4 + what ever you install with 1.4 ... i guess thats more then 10*1+X*2 ?
or i'm just 2 stupid for basic math ?

well
old 250 reactor with like 6 double heatsinks
10 +12=22
new
14+8,4=22,4

well yeah, not this much more, but more?!

Spoiler

250 engine with 10 double heatsinks
10+20=30

14+14=24 well okay i think after 6 heatsinks the system is somehow broken to the old one ?

250 engine + 7 DHS
10+14 = 24
14+7*1.4=23.8

Well yeah, you see, it seems like you should switch back to SHS when you use more then 6 double heat sinks ?!

[Grok]

Can I have my CBills back? I spent a long time getting the 3 million to upgrade my two mechs, I could have got a new mech if I had known...wasting peoples time is a good way to put them off the game.

If something is getting patched to such a degree I fell a refund is in order.

Edited by Grok, 07 November 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[Corvus Antaka]

the heatscale is the problem, not DHS.

and it is not all that bad right now. maybe 25% more dissapation per heatsink, and 25% lower heatcap would work.

[Vorg]

AntharPrime, on 07 November 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Were the Innershpere double heatsinks not 2 slots and 2 tons, and the clan double heatsink 1 slot and 1 ton? The was an experimental corrosive liquid cooled double heatsink that was 3 slots.

IS: 1 ton, 3 slots, 2HP
Clan: 1 ton, 2 slots, 2HP

[MuFasa]

Im probably going to get flamed beyond belief for this. But I cant for the life of me figure out why with every patch the game is all of a sudden TOTALLY broken in the eye's of some folks around here. It's like their glass is always half empty vs being half full. Instead of constructive input it is always this intweb rage. I swear sometimes reading these forums I think I am playing this game with some 2 year olds.

Here is a hint, we are playing a beta, that means things can and do change. Now, we can debate weather the game is a release or not, I very likely will agree with you. But release or not things can and WILL change more than they stay the same.

I wont disagree with many of the complaints, releasing the Artemis system and the return of the old original missile flight path without anything that will allow people to combat against these changes was in my opinion a bad call. I HOPE that the data they are collecting this week will show them, short of banging their own heads against a wall this was NOT one of the smarter things they could have done. The difference is I guess the approach, how it's handled. With each patch a whole group of people whose builds have been tweaked to fit the current system are invalidated and instead of adapting and changing with the game, they come to the forums and rage... Come state your issue, and see what happens, doesn't mean the dev's or for that matter anyone here will agree, doesn't mean they won't either. But the place would be a bit easier to tolerate than it is now.

Just an idea

Oh, and if you're gona quit.... can I have your stuff?

[ZodiacX]

Here's a tabulation of the affect of the patch on heat dissipation.

Note: This does not mean I agree with the nerf, just a helpful little visual to understand the direct impact from fixing the flawed calculation but nerfing it simultaneously.

[Vorg]

This screwup with DHS means in many, if not most cases, only lights and maybe mediums can make use of DHS. The extra slots needed mean use loose on heavy/assault.

[cmdr_scotty]

the trade off people are seeing is that the larger mechs that need a huge amount of SHS will suffer with the IS DHS due to the size restrictions they impose.

Granted they are called double because they are supposed to be double efficiency, however, as PGI stated in the patch notes, through testing they found that 1.4 would be a more balanced approach. Since this is a realtime game and not turnbased, things need more tweaking for it to be useful.


Just wait till the clans come, 2 crit double heatsinks. Then the larger mechs will be able to benefit better from them

[Stingz]

The limits on DHS is crit slots, and there's diminishing returns on "Improved Heatsinks".
After about 16 DHS, you would be better off using regular HS.

Light/medium mechs usually lack tonnage to pack more standard HS: Crits>Tons (Put on DHS)
Heavy and Assault mechs suffer from too much tons, not enough crit slots to put stuff in: Tons>Crits (Avoid DHS)

[ZodiacX]

Stingz, on 07 November 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

The limits on DHS is crit slots, and there's diminishing returns on "Improved Heatsinks".
After about 16 DHS, you would be better off using regular HS.

Light/medium mechs usually lack tonnage to pack more standard HS: Crits>Tons (Put on DHS)
Heavy and Assault mechs suffer from too much tons, not enough crit slots to put stuff in: Tons>Crits (Avoid DHS)

To an extent I agree with this, however if you have both the tons and crit slots it is still beneficial to use DHS over SHS because 0.14 > 0.1 no matter how you spin it.

[EvangelionUnit]

there is a way out of the heatsink mess .... just install 400 rated engines in as many mechs as possible, XL if you have too, you can mount some extra heatsinks or what ever engine gives you some free heatsinks (how much heatsinks you can get from the engine max ? and at what rate ?

anyway, you then have a lot of 1.4 Heatsinks (dont wanne call em doubel xD) and that just für 6 extra crit slots

[SixstringSamurai]

ZodiacX, on 07 November 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Here's a tabulation of the affect of the patch on heat dissipation.

Note: This does not mean I agree with the nerf, just a helpful little visual to understand the direct impact from fixing the flawed calculation but nerfing it simultaneously.

ZodiacX what have we told you about spread sheets!!!!


But on a more serious note, prepatch

engine HS at SHS was 1
DHS was 2
I had a mech with 20 total heat sinks listed (10 in the engine) so:

10 x 1.0 = 10
10 x 2.0 = 20
so I had the heat management of 30 SHS

After the patch

20 DHS (10 in engine)
10 x 1.4 = 14
10 x 1.4 = 14

Now only 28 SHS worth of heat management at the same weight. Now if they had chosen 1.5 as the value:

20 x 1.5 = 30

The exact same weight and heat management as before with the engine at single and the rest DHS.

Edited by SixStringSamurai, 07 November 2012 - 01:26 PM.

[JelloMan]

I think the reaction to the LRMs may be justified, but the DHS anger really isn't.

If you read the patch release notes and Dev comments, they lowered the DHS value to 1.4 TO START. They have openly said that they are using the value right now as a test. You cannot expect them to fix MULTIPLE things that are heat dependent and still have perfect scaling heat, especially when it's very obvious people disagree with the heat scale.

They FIXED a LOT of the laser heat values and readjusted the DHS in one patch. How would they know how the higher values and lower values would work. I would assume that if they did not up the heat production of those lasers then the 1.4 would seem MUCH better.

Again it's beta and they are starting the DHS low while EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME THAT MATTERS (edit: in regards to heat) IS BEING UPDATED.

Edited by JelloMan, 07 November 2012 - 01:24 PM.

[ZodiacX]

SixStringSamurai, on 07 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

ZodiacX what have we told you about spread sheets!!!!

That they are awesome and I should continue to provide well formatted images which help display trends in a quick to interpret format.

Also I am glad that your math matches my spreadsheet.

[Stormwolf]

ZodiacX, on 07 November 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

That they are awesome and I should continue to provide well formatted images which help display trends in a quick to interpret format.

Also I am glad that your math matches my spreadsheet.

win

[KageRyuu]

Enough with the melodrama, seriously. But yes, "double" heat sinks aren't worth their money right now, it's far more cost efficient to just stick more single heat sinks in your mech then to pay the exorbitant fees for their 1.4 heat sinks, but regardless the real problem isn't the 1.4 heat sinks (which are still quite under powered), but rather their heat dissipation rules, which are atrocious even on the ice maps. 4 medium lasers should not overheat a Jenner on an ice map in 2 volleys, and "double" heat sinks should be twice as effective as the single heat sinks. There is no reason why they should make single heat sinks viable at all (except for Guass Cats), in fact single heat sinks should be effectively replaced by doubles in everyone's builds, not just supplementing some.

Edited by KageRyuu, 07 November 2012 - 01:40 PM.

[ZivyTerc]

There should be a refund for DHS upgrades. I fortunately upgraded one mech only but it is still wasted mil and half Cbills.