425 replies to this topic

[Neozero]

Frankly this has been the subject of much talk on TS3. How does PGI justify the three crit slots and massive upgrade costs for DHS when providing only a small fraction of the intended benefit. What I do not understand is how they plan to balance clan weapon systems without fully functional DHS. Firing 2 IS ER PPCs at any sustained rate is hard enough now imagine trying to do that in a timberwolf, or warhawk. DHS needs to be fully restored in order to maintain balance between ER and regular weapon's technology.

Sure there will be issues with mechs like the Awesome or Hunchie that have ridiculous amounts of beam hard points vs ballistic and missle, that stand to gain the most from true DHS, but as it stands right now ER weapons are still going to be rare and useless. How does PGI expect to handle advanced IS or clan designs that feature exclusively ER and Pulse weapons tech? Those variants will be totally broken because they lack the DHS that would have made them viable choices.

Bottom line is whenever you introduce new capabilities previously not active, it is gonna change the dynamics of the game, true DHS was not something I think or feel would have been game breaking. Armor values have been doubled, weapon values are above their norms with the exception of ballistic systems, missles constantly are being upgraded to be the winner take all system with the new Artemis, why can you not show some love to ER weapons? Hell even the AC/20 got a heat reduction and that weapon really did not need any tweaking.

I have been a strong supporter of MWO, and have invested lots of time and money into supporting this product PGI is developing. However I am beginning to have strong reservations about the direction of the project as I see it catering to the lowest common denominator more and more. We have been promised much and while I have accepted delays in content release as the nature of the beast, I find it hard to actively encourage people to play a game that keeps changing established game mechanics that had worked out just fine in previous versions of mechwarrior/battletech games.

[Crimson Fenris]

I still dont understand PGI when they claim "setting DHS to 2.0 unbalanced some builds".

Yes, 2.0 would have made lights a bit more effective with lasers. And medium too. All all classes, maybe saving the assault classes that are clearly penalized with using full energy weapons.
That also makes PPC and ERLL totally useless, since only Assault and Heavies can fit those weapons with enough firepower for their classes...

But, seems like PGI forget a simple thing : balance is made by tonnage and slots limit. There is room in a light, but not enough tonnage to fit the "OP" energy builds some are dreaming about.
At the contrary, on heavier chassis, the room is taken by big guns and ammo, then there is not enough room to fit a proper heat dissipation (again because of ratio tonnage/HS efficiency).

That is the balancing thing, not setting an arbitrary number on a device that's supposed to be twice as effective...

Current situation will leads to missile/gauss abuse, and LL/PPC being barley used at all...

Otherwise, balance the whole thing by lowering some high heat weapon values, instead of making a penalty on all of the energy weapons users... thanks.

[Valder]

Dear gawd guys! This thread is not to discuss the finer points of nerfing! This was to address what I thought was a bug in the system the devs intended.

[whiteboy007]

I had just finished building an AWS-8Q that ran with triple ERPPC's and triple Medium Lasers. Using DHS I had my efficiency at 1.05. After the patch it's now .88. Yikes.

The part that is crippling to my build is that I'm out of room to add more heat sinks. There is nothing else I can do to make it any better. With the build the way it is I would have to trade out the ERPPC's for regular PPC's to get me to 1.01 efficiency. This to me has made the money I spent on DHS a waste.

I don't expect amazing heat efficiency, but if I can't get more than the new rating it makes certain builds (like mine) very difficult to utilize. Putting it back to stock and still having DHS made it just slightly more efficient than stock. Not worth the 1,500,000 C-Bills I spent on DHS.

[CyanideLev]

I completely agree with the guy who said it's like they don't even want us using lasers. Upping the heat generated by them, and then nerfing DHS? Seems pretty dumb. I don't understand where this nerf came from. I've been using DHS for a while now, and they only boosted my efficiency from .80 to 1.2. I overheated quite a bit as it was. Also, it feels good to know that 1.5 mil on the upgrade was completely, and utterly wasted..

Edited by CyanideLev, 06 November 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[Hexcaliber]

Project Dark Fox, on 06 November 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

Your old heat efficiency ratings did not take into effect the bugged engine heat sinks. 10 DHS then still had the efficiency of 10 SHS -- but it would not show this in the graphs.
Now, take your 10 DHS and observe it should act like 14 SHS. Your graph may drop, but you should've actually seen some improvement.


Ooh, they nerfed laser boats! Have you perhaps considered using different weapons, or maybe dropping a weapon or two? I think they made the right call, though further testing will yield if they should bump it to 1.5 or 1.6 or so.

Laser boats were already inferior to LRM, Gauss and balistics due to heat problems, making LL, ERLL, LLPL, and PPC inferior, when they are supposed to be viable alternatives. Perhaps you should spend a little less time pontificating, and more time trying a larger range of weapon platforms so you have a balanced view instead of grabbing the FOTM.

This game needs more variety, not less.

[JingleHell]

How many of you whiners actually played since the patch? Because I literally can't make my mechs overheat despite the lower listed efficiency... or maybe it's some side effect of me not being a founder. Carry on.

[IronGoat]

they should have just fixed the bugged engine heat sinks. DS are a known variable we could all deal with ( as users of AND facing them) but this 1.4 crap for 3 spaces? i mena as has been said WTF is the point? very few builds need a little extra weight at the cost of MAD SPACES!! tbh, as annoying as laserboats were they wernt that bad now, but nerfing DH has nerfed EVERY build that uses them so theyve punished all for the sins of the few. and of course as is PGI policy NOTHING was done to bring back knockdown or in ANY WAY hinder all the ******** light mechs...

i get the feeling PGI is staffed by kids who got thier ***** handed to them in mech 3/4 by assault mechs and so they built just this game to "punish" anyone who isnt a light mech pilot..

the BT universe was NEVER about tons of puny mechs running around like puppies.. if PGI claims to be BT fans then its a Blasphemy of epic purportions. they have turned BT 180 deg from waht it is was and meant to be to have this bastardized" light mechs only fest"

lets count the ways..
1 netcode favors speed... light mechs are the onl ones allowed to go really fast by PGI
2 assualt mechs have had basic movement slowed so that they cannot shoot at light mechs, turn in place with any speed ( ive seen LOTS of fat heavy people spin in place VERY quickly) or even defend themselves ( that is when the netcode actually counts any hits they land)
3 light mechs CANT be physically stopped or knocked down anymore ( thye claim to fix the mechanic. but why remove i tuntil it IS fixed?)
4 you cant LOOK BEHIND YOU!! no radar no rear view monitor ( you know like your dad has on his mid priced sedan in the 21st century) just so light mechs can have a HUGE blindspot to hide in.
5 torso movement is gimped to the point most mechs move like they are in rigor mortis! they cant move the upper torso more then a few degrees off the horizontal (giving light mechs a HUGE safe zone to hide in)

considering they claim no more stat wipes. it seems the deck is stacked right out of the gate in favor of lights..
and no the DHS BS since light mechs have no real need or use for DHS to do what they do again the result is the larger mechs get nerfed


seriously PGI we GET it you got PWNED in mech 3/4 cause you INSISTED on using light mechs as combat units..
now that we realize you guys are ******** over light mechs. can we please have the BT title you promised and hyped back in the spring?

[whiteboy007]

JingleHell, on 06 November 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

How many of you whiners actually played since the patch? Because I literally can't make my mechs overheat despite the lower listed efficiency... or maybe it's some side effect of me not being a founder. Carry on.

What are you builds like? I have a triple ERPPC AWS-8Q that I can make over heat whenever my trigger finger gets to heavy. It takes a judicious "finger" indeed to keep it from doing so. I just want my investment into DHS to be reflected in their performance. I cannot speak for others, but in my opinion they need to be made a bit stronger to offset the cost and space needed.

[Kanil]

IronGoat, on 06 November 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

the BT universe was NEVER about tons of puny mechs running around like puppies.. if PGI claims to be BT fans then its a Blasphemy of epic purportions. they have turned BT 180 deg from waht it is was and meant to be to have this bastardized" light mechs only fest"

Have you ever actually played against a JR7-F Jenner in tabletop? It's a ferocious 'mech that can 1v1 an Atlas with a reasonable (50/50?) success rate.

Also, I don't see how this helps light 'mechs vs assault 'mechs. If anything, the nerf to all the smaller lasers hurts the light 'mechs more than the gauss toting Catapults and Atlases.

[JingleHell]

whiteboy007, on 06 November 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

What are you builds like? I have a triple ERPPC AWS-8Q that I can make over heat whenever my trigger finger gets to heavy. It takes a judicious "finger" indeed to keep it from doing so. I just want my investment into DHS to be reflected in their performance. I cannot speak for others, but in my opinion they need to be made a bit stronger to offset the cost and space needed.

My builds are various Dragons. They had a mild tendency to start sounding like the official forum for any PC game on patch day if I kept up a steady rate of fire. With absolutely zero change in the builds (DHS before and after), they've stopped overheating. Ever.

Granted, I'm not using something completely through the roof, but the guys I was grouped with were also having much better results with the exact same loadouts as before. Including one guy Alpha striking in an Atlas.

[Department of Human Resources]

So DHS isn't a win button? And they have to be used intelligently? And the indicator variable don't lie any more? Fantastic.

[Th3 Ron1n]

F me. just got done playing a few rounds and all my jenners are basically pointless with endo and ferro upgrades. once u get that u can only fit 5 dhs and the heat that lasers even small lasers are putting out make it pointless except to stand around and spot. only way i can see getting the heat under control is by going back to SHS and dropping my armor down to nothing so i can fit on more SHS's. i think PGI just got tired of the hit detection problem so they decided to just make lasers completely pointless so they have one less thing to deal with. i was having alot of fun before open beta, then the patch came and it had major issues but the game was still fun, now its getting to the point where there are so many things hindering gameplay that the fun is outweighed by the frustration of dealing with the game mechanics.

[Valder]

JingleHell, on 06 November 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

My builds are various Dragons. They had a mild tendency to start sounding like the official forum for any PC game on patch day if I kept up a steady rate of fire. With absolutely zero change in the builds (DHS before and after), they've stopped overheating. Ever.

Granted, I'm not using something completely through the roof, but the guys I was grouped with were also having much better results with the exact same loadouts as before. Including one guy Alpha striking in an Atlas.

After running mine I've discovered it is also much easier to keep cool. I can never keep it from overheating eventually, but now 8 tons of AC2 ammo is no longer enough because I can keep shooting long enough to make it run out before the match is over...

[Th3 Ron1n]

Department of Human Resources, on 06 November 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

So DHS isn't a win button? And they have to be used intelligently? And the indicator variable don't lie any more? Fantastic.

i dont see any bonus to it. they use up too many critical slots that endo and ferro use to the point that u cant fit enough of them to make a difference. maybe if they dropped the slot usage from 3 down to 2 they would make sense but right now i cant find a use for em

[whiteboy007]

JingleHell, on 06 November 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Granted, I'm not using something completely through the roof, but the guys I was grouped with were also having much better results with the exact same loadouts as before. Including one guy Alpha striking in an Atlas.

I realize builds like mine are the minority and therefore seem extreme, but it isn't outside the realm of possible. And in that I think you find the problem with DHS. They just aren't efficient enough to warrant the cost and space needed to utilize them. I know you can tell a difference between a build with DHS and SHS. I've felt the difference personally.

However, making DHS less efficient indirectly makes weapons like ERLL's and ERPPC's less effective. Maybe if the damage of PPC's, for example, were higher maybe it would offset the lower rate at which they can be fired.

Just an idea.

[Krow Ames]

You know, using regular heat sinks is better than the DHS's.

But here's the issue. You know how you could flush coolant in every mechwarrior game ever made? Yeah. Kinda wish we could flush coolant. It would add a little more heat management strategy to the game, rather than just slapping parts on a mech and making the number on your heat management window in the garage move.

[Valder]

Th3 Ron1n, on 06 November 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

i dont see any bonus to it. they use up too many critical slots that endo and ferro use to the point that u cant fit enough of them to make a difference. maybe if they dropped the slot usage from 3 down to 2 they would make sense but right now i cant find a use for em

My build wouldn't work without them, because it would be too hot to be useful. So I like them for that. However, I agree that they're not useful if you need like 20 of them. But I use 16 and am very satisfied.

Krow Ames, on 06 November 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

You know, using regular heat sinks is better than the DHS's.

But here's the issue. You know how you could flush coolant in every mechwarrior game ever made? Yeah. Kinda wish we could flush coolant. It would add a little more heat management strategy to the game, rather than just slapping parts on a mech and making the number on your heat management window in the garage move.

The Devs said they will never add that, because it was a product of playing a single player game where you had to single-handedly fight your way thru a 40 minute map. That basically, if you're going to let people go heat neutral in very quick matches by giving them leet collant buttons, then what's the point of having a heat system at all?

Edited by Valder, 06 November 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[Ezrekiel]

Ok, I moved the XL Engine 210 from my Raven into my Gaussapult, which uses DHS.

The Engine comes with 10 HS, 8 of which are included in the engine itself, and 2 more should need critical slots, but not additional tonnage.

But when I add those 2 DHS then my Mech gets 2t heavier.

So -->> a bug

[Cynwulf]

Kanil, on 06 November 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

Have you ever actually played against a JR7-F Jenner in tabletop? It's a ferocious 'mech that can 1v1 an Atlas with a reasonable (50/50?) success rate.

Also, I don't see how this helps light 'mechs vs assault 'mechs. If anything, the nerf to all the smaller lasers hurts the light 'mechs more than the gauss toting Catapults and Atlases.

I have played tabletop for many years and that is definetly not the case Atlas wins almost always.