205 replies to this topic

[Noth]

Jings, on 07 November 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

Hah, hardly.

LRM boats were poultry before this patch, an afterthought. Now they are ubiquitous, to put it lightly - And more importantly it isn't because of trials running LRMs. Pre-patch you'd see quite a few LRMs as 3 of the trials were LRM carriers, now you see a lot of C1s, A1s, LRM Atlas builds and LRM Hunchies.

LRM boats would quietly support the team from the rear previously, often scoring middle on the board. Now they top the board every game - No exaggeration - And slaughter 'Mechs wholesale rather than soften them up as was their previous role.

They're not fire support any more - They're the primary damage dealers.

They were dominating the metagame. You either stacked AMS every match, or stuck in cover so much that it was pointless to play any other way. Just because something is counterable doesn't mean it does not dominate the metagame. It it dictates how the battle has to be played every match, then it is dominating the metagame.

[potatoparrot]

Noth, on 07 November 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

They were dominating the metagame. You either stacked AMS every match, or stuck in cover so much that it was pointless to play any other way. Just because something is counterable doesn't mean it does not dominate the metagame. It it dictates how the battle has to be played every match, then it is dominating the metagame.

Simply put, this isn't even remotely what I saw last patch. Early Closed Beta, yes. Last patch? Heck no.

Last patch was Dawn of the Lights due to the removal of tripping, along with a smattering of LRM trials. Light 'Mechs were the show of force, flavour of the week. Supersonic, sufficiently lagshielded and immune to what was previously their one weakness? They dominated last patch. LRM boats were just the trials - I didn't see any real LRM boats.

[Noth]

Jings, on 07 November 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

Simply put, this isn't even remotely what I saw last patch. Early Closed Beta, yes. Last patch? Heck no.

Last patch was Dawn of the Lights due to the removal of tripping, along with a smattering of LRM trials. Light 'Mechs were the show of force, flavour of the week. Supersonic, sufficiently lagshielded and immune to what was previously their one weakness? They dominated last patch. LRM boats were just the trials - I didn't see any real LRM boats.

Lights were the only thing that could survive being in the open without a group of AMS mechs against LRM users. Not saying lights weren't a problem, but they were pretty much the only mech that could be out of cover against an LRM boat without getting mowed down, thus it's natural to see a rise in lights. Heck I even began running lights because it allowed me to do more than just sit in cover.

Edited by Noth, 07 November 2012 - 05:46 AM.

[Bleary]

I had no problem running a Gauss Hunch last patch. And my SRM Hunch consistently outscored my LRM Hunch.

I'm with Jings. I could deal with a Catapult, if they even bothered bringing a dedicated LRM build in the first place. Don't run out in the open toward them, brawl with their teammates while your lights run over to take care of them. Or just ignore them until you've won the main engagement. Your team could often bring more DPS by focus firing with direct weapons than they could with indirect LRMs.

The patch is night and day.

Edited by Bleary, 07 November 2012 - 05:57 AM.

[Cybermech]

I proved on TS that you can use cover for lrm fire.
River city is a great example of using cover, just the smallest buildings don't work.
Also remember that if any of your legs/ears are sticking out they will get hit.

[QuantumButler]

Cybermech, on 07 November 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

I proved on TS that you can use cover for lrm fire.
River city is a great example of using cover, just the smallest buildings don't work.
Also remember that if any of your legs/ears are sticking out they will get hit.

Or sometimes the missiles will just fly through the buildings and hit you anyway because **** you.

[Purlana]

Bleary, on 07 November 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

Don't run out in the open toward them, brawl with their teammates while your lights ran over to take care of them.

Bad idea, if their teammate has a lock then your going to get pounded by rain...

Lights defend the LRM boats and tag targets, brawlers defend the line, LRM boats pound everything in range to dust.

Edited by Purlana, 07 November 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[Noth]

Bleary, on 07 November 2012 - 05:50 AM, said:

I had no problem running a Gauss Hunch last patch. And my SRM Hunch consistently outscored my LRM Hunch.

I'm with Jings. I could deal with a Catapult, if they even bothered bringing a dedicated LRM build in the first place. Don't run out in the open toward them, brawl with their teammates while your lights run over to take care of them. Or just ignore them until your team has won the main engagement. Your team could often bring more DPS by focus firing with direct weapons than they could with indirect LRMs.

The patch is night and day.

Yes you could counter them in an organized group. In a PUG, you were lucky not to lose several mechs before the LRMs stopped. The simple fact that you either stay in cover (unless a light mech), or stacked AMS because of the threat of the LRMs means that they were indeed dictating the metagame. The fact that there is such a huge disparity betwwen their effectiveness against an organized group and a pug is also a sign of a problem. Most games that see this change the thing at fault because it is broken.

[potatoparrot]

Purlana, on 07 November 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

Bad idea, if their teammate has a lock then your going to get pounded by rain...

Lights defend the LRM boats and tag targets, brawlers defend the line, LRM boats pound everything in range to dust.

An LRM boat with a Striker on it is an LRM boat unable to fire without taking substantial damage.

The issue is that post-patch, two LRM boats have enough firepower to defend each other from Strikers, making the previous strategy obsolete. With that strategy obsolete, there isn't yet a replacement - Snipers don't work, Strikers don't work, the advancing wall of meat certainly won't work...

[Karl Marlow]

I totally agree. LRMs are so easy to Dodge. I went to work at midnight last night and when I got back home this morning I hadn't died to LRM's once.

[Noth]

Jings, on 07 November 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

An LRM boat with a Striker on it is an LRM boat unable to fire without taking substantial damage.

The issue is that post-patch, two LRM boats have enough firepower to defend each other from Strikers, making the previous strategy obsolete. With that strategy obsolete, there isn't yet a replacement - Snipers don't work, Strikers don't work, the advancing wall of meat certainly won't work...

Again singular strategy. That is a problem. They were indeed dictating the metagame. All this patch did was remove the very few strats that beat LRMs. If they weren't dictating the metagame in the first place you would have more than 1 or 2 options to deal with them.

[potatoparrot]

Noth, on 07 November 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

Yes you could counter them in an organized group. In a PUG, you were lucky not to lose several mechs before the LRMs stopped. The simple fact that you either stay in cover (unless a light mech), or stacked AMS because of the threat of the LRMs means that they were indeed dictating the metagame. The fact that there is such a huge disparity betwwen their effectiveness against an organized group and a pug is also a sign of a problem. Most games that see this change the thing at fault because it is broken.

Personally I don't include PuG-stomping tactics as part of the metagame precisely because organization tends to completely shut them down. I also omit trial 'Mechs from my considerations when looking at common 'Mech variants - I saw a lot of Ravens pre-patch and I see a lot of Cicada's post-patch, but at no point was that because either 'Mech was fantastic, it's just because they were trials.

[Bleary]

Purlana, on 07 November 2012 - 05:54 AM, said:

Bad idea, if their teammate has a lock then your going to get pounded by rain...

Lights defend the LRM boats and tag targets, brawlers defend the line, LRM boats pound everything in range to dust.

They do now, yes. Not before. There's a reason no one was running LRM teams in competitive clan matches before the patch.

Noth, on 07 November 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

Yes you could counter them in an organized group. In a PUG, you were lucky not to lose several mechs before the LRMs stopped. The simple fact that you either stay in cover (unless a light mech), or stacked AMS because of the threat of the LRMs means that they were indeed dictating the metagame. The fact that there is such a huge disparity betwwen their effectiveness against an organized group and a pug is also a sign of a problem. Most games that see this change the thing at fault because it is broken.

I have never dropped in a group. The simple fact is that LRMs weren't nearly as decisive before the patch. Several 'Mechs on your team could be in a brawling engagement with 'Mechs on their team while a boat fired on you and you could still win that engagement, especially as you often had numerical superiority because no one on your team was hanging back to 'boat. Or one of your lights could run up and chase them off. Or if you got a bead, you could outduel them at range with direct fire.

Now, once LRMs start dropping on you, no matter if you're brawling or sniping or you're a Jenner trying to run up and stop the rain, you have exactly two options: break the lock immediately or die.

Edited by Bleary, 07 November 2012 - 06:06 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

"OVER-POWERED" is usually QQ speak for "My tactics suck, and instead of adapting them, I am going to complain that the game doesn't cater to my skill set (or lack there of)".

Played against multiple LRM heavy units (usually in frikking Caustic! LRM Heaven) for about 3 hours last night. Lost 3-4 out of 20ish matches. Used terrain to base cap, or flank and pincer the LRMBoats. It's amazing how "uncoordinated" most groups get when they are facing foes front and rear, especially ones using terrain to conceal themselves from LRMs.

I'd also point out that many of the more popular LRM builds are nearly unfeasible, post Patch, as things like the SteakCat (A1) with 6 LRM5s now have to devote 6 tons and 6 crits to Artemis, since it's an all or nothing deal. 6 tons that previously went to ammo or HS. And yes, cost of LRMs and stuff DO help balance it (I had a coupla guys in my team using them heavily, and after a few matches had to drive other mechs for a bit to actually make money, after exhausting some 7-10 tons of Ari-LRMs per match)

So far, I have only had one "LRM-Life-Lesson" post patch, and it reminded me why you don't over-extend on Caustic in a stock Founders Hunchie. Slow mechs, with no cover or long range weapons are easy meat.

My fault, not LRMs being OP.

[Allekatrase]

You have never dropped in a group yet know what is being run in competitive clan matches...

Are those even a real thing at this point?

[potatoparrot]

Noth, on 07 November 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Again singular strategy. That is a problem. They were indeed dictating the metagame. All this patch did was remove the very few strats that beat LRMs. If they weren't dictating the metagame in the first place you would have more than 1 or 2 options to deal with them.

Wrong, it was not a singular strategy, it was simply the most effective one.

You said it yourself, other strategies included AMS blankets, moving through cover, counter battery from friendly LRM boats, snipers specifically moving to target LRM boats - There were plenty of options. Of those options, none still function. AMS blankets aren't effective against the now significantly greater volume of missiles, cover tends to do... Nothing... Against the sharper angle of attack, counter battery works because identical strategies cancel one another out, snipers was never a particularly effective strat, but it's even less so with the increased number of LRM boats. A sniper can pop one LRM boat, but that means nothing if he then evaporates under the hail of missiles from the other LRM boats.

[Allekatrase]

Oh, and to the guy above me, apparently he's doing it wrong. You get 75% ammo for free. You shouldn't ever be paying for ammo right now. Fix that and it will be less of an issue.

[Noth]

Bleary, on 07 November 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

They do now, yes. Not before. Lights defend the LRM boats and tag targets, brawlers defend the line . . .and the other team has twice as many brawlers to engage that line, because they're not running LRM boats. If they overwhelm that line or their lights chase off the ones defending the LRM boats, then the boats are useless. There's a reason no one was running LRM teams in competitive clan matches before the patch.


I have never dropped in a group.

You were lucky then. Also no one runs LRMs in competitive matches because they are useless in organized play because once again the teams could just stack AMS or just stay in cover (it dictates that you do this). They could potentially and often did absolutely rule the battlefield in pug games. You what,that shows a design flaw in the LRMs. In LoL when something is useless in competitive team play and often over bearing in pugs, they would rework that thing to make it useful in team play and easier to handle in pugs. It was usually done through a combination of nerfs, buffs and even redisigning of aspects of the thing at fault.

So again, just because something was counterable, doesn't mean it wasn't dictating the metagame nor that it isn't broken.

[Bleary]

Don't know what to tell you. Lagshielded lights were my problem in PuG games pre-patch. LRMs were not. Neither getting shot by them nor running them myself. You can't ascribe it to luck; I'm not unique in this opinion. But this is both an old and, post-patch, completely pointless argument.

Allekatrase, on 07 November 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

You have never dropped in a group yet know what is being run in competitive clan matches...

Are those even a real thing at this point?

It takes playing in clan matches to watch those matches or read the results? Look: honestly. Organized LRM tactics were not particularly viable against other organized teams pre-patch. This is not a secret. And I did not find them to be dominant in PuG-vs-PuG matches either.

Edited by Bleary, 07 November 2012 - 06:12 AM.

[Budor]

Im lvlng Jenners now after Centurions, quite op but after the patch LRM outdoes even scouts. I run around and tag stuff while a friend of mine rains from an atlas, stuff explodes so fast its not even funny...