205 replies to this topic

[Noth]

Jings, on 07 November 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

Wrong, it was not a singular strategy, it was simply the most effective one.

You said it yourself, other strategies included AMS blankets, moving through cover, counter battery from friendly LRM boats, snipers specifically moving to target LRM boats - There were plenty of options. Of those options, none still function. AMS blankets aren't effective against the now significantly greater volume of missiles, cover tends to do... Nothing... Against the sharper angle of attack, counter battery works because identical strategies cancel one another out, snipers was never a particularly effective strat, but it's even less so with the increased number of LRM boats. A sniper can pop one LRM boat, but that means nothing if he then evaporates under the hail of missiles from the other LRM boats.

All just related to sitting on your butt in cover hoping the LRM players are dumb enough to sit being picked a part by something. It is a singular strategy. AMS was something you had to have before even entering the match, making it mandatory (dictating the metagame). It was a singular strategy of sitting in cover waiting for teh LRMs to get distracted before you can do anything else. It was boring and stale. I could see more strategies and tactics come out in the first 5 minutes of a match light on LRMs than I did in all the LRM heavy matches I was involved in.

[Procobator]

Othe OP is a little correct. There are a few places to hide still. The heliport in the city, the arch in Forrest, the tunnel in frozen. I guess caustic you may be screwed lol.

[Noth]

Bleary, on 07 November 2012 - 06:09 AM, said:

It takes playing in clan matches to watch those matches or read the results? Look: honestly. Organized LRM tactics were not particularly viable against other organized teams pre-patch. This is not a secret. And they were not dominant in PuG-vs-PuG matches either.

ACtually they often did because pug are inherently unorganized. The team that was able to mass the most organized LRMs group usually would stomp the non non LRM group since the tactics to stop LRMs take more more coordination and organization than it takes to effectively use LRMs.

[CmdrLaw]

Some very good points here:

"Kill the scouts and the LRM boats can't get a lock on you"

Yup this definitely works!

Then what? Hide in cover the rest of the game whilst the LRM boats wait for you to come out of cover.............WHAT FUN!

A friend of mine has been having an absolute blast, had several 6 kill matches in his ATLAS -DC last night.
And he just advised of the Missile damage hotfix "[color=#333333]Yeah they fixed the showing of LRM damage. Just had a 5 kill game and did 1440 damage [/color][color=#333333][/color]"

It's a Golden age for the LRM boat! So join in or miss out. I had just sold my DC before the patch as had maxed base EXP so I will attempt to brawl in my founders Atlas still.

[potatoparrot]

Noth, on 07 November 2012 - 06:09 AM, said:

All just related to sitting on your butt in cover hoping the LRM players are dumb enough to sit being picked a part by something. It is a singular strategy. AMS was something you had to have before even entering the match, making it mandatory (dictating the metagame). It was a singular strategy of sitting in cover waiting for teh LRMs to get distracted before you can do anything else. It was boring and stale. I could see more strategies and tactics come out in the first 5 minutes of a match light on LRMs than I did in all the LRM heavy matches I was involved in.

I fail to see how moving under an AMS blanket or approaching through cover relies on so much as the presence of Light 'Mechs at all.

It's like you're telling me that LRMs dominated the metagame pre-patch because even though nobody was using an LRM boat (except trial 'Mechs, that are a constant), they totally could have if there weren't Lights everywhere to slaughter them.

They really weren't common. I don't remember so much as seeing a C1 with LRMs - They were running Streaks, or bog standard SRMs to deal with Lights or Brawl respectively. A1s were Streakpults, not LRM boats. Heck, most weren't even hybrid 2xLRM 4xSSRM builds pre-patch.

[Noth]

Jings, on 07 November 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

I fail to see how moving under an AMS blanket or approaching through cover relies on so much as the presence of Light 'Mechs at all.

It's like you're telling me that LRMs dominated the metagame pre-patch because even though nobody was using an LRM boat (except trial 'Mechs, that are a constant), they totally could have if there weren't Lights everywhere to slaughter them.

They really weren't common. I don't remember so much as seeing a C1 with LRMs - They were running Streaks, or bog standard SRMs to deal with Lights or Brawl respectively. A1s were Streakpults, not LRM boats. Heck, most weren't even hybrid 2xLRM 4xSSRM builds pre-patch.

Sigh, you don't see how having to rely on cover or an AMS blanket being the only strategies, unless you are a light mech is not dictating the metagame? Serious, it is one tactic and strategy. Everyone says there are numerous way to counter them but it's always use cover, use AMS blankets, or be a light. If that is not dictating the metagame I do not know what is.

I saw tons of non trial mech missile boats. I didn't really fear the trial mech missile boats because they typically ran out of Ammo fast meaning you weren't forced to sit in cover for most the match.

[Allekatrase]

Really don't know what game you were playing, Jings, but I saw tons of LRM boats. A1s usually had 2x LRMs and some streaks. Sure there were more streaks but it didn't matter. LRMs were strong enough you only needed about two boats to dictate the battle. I saw tons of assaults with LRMs and that's the worst. You can't even take them out fast and they have the tonnage for other weapons besides. Lots of DCs with lots of LRMs.

I haven't been able to play since the patch but about half the matches before the patch were being dictated by LRMs already.

[Bishop Steiner]

CmdrLaw, on 07 November 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

Some very good points here:

"Kill the scouts and the LRM boats can't get a lock on you"

Yup this definitely works!

Then what? Hide in cover the rest of the game whilst the LRM boats wait for you to come out of cover.............WHAT FUN!

A friend of mine has been having an absolute blast, had several 6 kill matches in his ATLAS -DC last night.
And he just advised of the Missile damage hotfix "[color=#333333]Yeah they fixed the showing of LRM damage. Just had a 5 kill game and did 1440 damage [/color][color=#333333] [/color]"

It's a Golden age for the LRM boat! So join in or miss out. I had just sold my DC before the patch as had maxed base EXP so I will attempt to brawl in my founders Atlas still.

So why was it that every time I used terrain to conceal me and my wingman (both running fast Centys) and flanked the LRM boats, even against teams, we shredded them nearly every time?

OH YEAH! Cuz they couldn't afford to pull all their units from the front line, and had to split their fire, cuz apparently, most of the PUGs I dropped with had the ******* to take a couple of hits and keep pressing, instead of going turtle and tucking tail everytime something splashed near them.

[Listless Nomad]

How my AMS feels following this patch:

Edited by Listless Nomad, 07 November 2012 - 06:26 AM.

[Bleary]

Noth, on 07 November 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

ACtually they often did because pug are inherently unorganized. The team that was able to mass the most organized LRMs group usually would stomp the non non LRM group since the tactics to stop LRMs take more more coordination and organization than it takes to effectively use LRMs.

The tactics to stop massed LRM boats with dedicated defenders takes more coordination that a PuG can manage. But PuGs also can't coordinate massed LRM boats with dedicated defenders. They'd get one or two boats that did't focus their fire on the same targets, and inevitably dissolved into futile circle strafing as soon as a Jenner ran up to zap them on its way to their base. Or they'd fire away, do decent damage, then after 2 players stupidly zerg rushed into the whole enemy column and the rest of their team lost the main engagement, they'd get mopped up in turn.

I played hundreds of PuG matches in between the last patch and this one. All I can keep telling you is that I did not see LRM boats scoring at the top of the tables or massed LRM tactics deciding many matches. What decided most of my matches were ***** lone wolves splitting off and getting killed or swarms of lights cutting our brawlers to pieces. And I'm very much not the only person who had this experience.

Edited by Bleary, 07 November 2012 - 06:28 AM.

[Purlana]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 November 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

So why was it that every time I used terrain to conceal me and my wingman (both running fast Centys) and flanked the LRM boats, even against teams, we shredded them nearly every time?

Because their light mech pilots suck and don't know what they are doing?

[Noth]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 November 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

So why was it that every time I used terrain to conceal me and my wingman (both running fast Centys) and flanked the LRM boats, even against teams, we shredded them nearly every time?

OH YEAH! Cuz they couldn't afford to pull all their units from the front line, and had to split their fire, cuz apparently, most of the PUGs I dropped with had the ******* to take a couple of hits and keep pressing, instead of going turtle and tucking tail everytime something splashed near them.

If the LRM boats were decent, no one on their frontline should be dead, And most your team would be either dead or severely damage. Grats on getting a few kills while they utterly destroyed your team.

[Sephlock]

Quote

goodnight Irene

Maybe your ping is skewing your experience ?

[Noth]

Bleary, on 07 November 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

I've killed people under the arch with missile salvos post-patch. Seriously; they screwed up the flight pathing. It's not just artemis, it a


The tactics to stop massed LRM boats with dedicated defenders takes more coordination that a PuG can manage. But PuGs also can't coordinate massed LRM boats with dedicated defenders. They'll get one or two boats that don't focus their fire on the same targets, and inevitably dissolve into futile circle strafing as soon as a Jenner runs up to zap them on its way to their base. Or they'll fire away, do decent damage, then after 3 of the team's players have stupidly zerg rushed into the whole enemy column and died, they'll get mobbed and moppe dup. I played hundreds of PuG matches in between the last patch and this one. All I can keep telling you is that I did not see LRM boats scoring at the top of the tables or massed LRM tactics deciding many matches. What decided most of my matches were stupid lone wolves splitting off and getting killed, and swarms of lights cutting our brawlers to pieces. And I'm very much not the only person who had this experience.

This is why they are overpowering in PUG matches. THey could flat out kill anything in the open at range with no threat of being shot at fatser than nearly every other weapon system in teh game that require LOS. Just because an orgainzed group can counter them with ease, doesn't mean that they are fine in pugs. In fact it shows a poor design of a weapon. Useless in one area, but potentially overpowering in another dednding solely on ability to use 1-2 strategies. That is horrid design. There are ways to make the LRM useful in competitive play yet not overpowering in PUG matches. I dont want LRMs useless anywhere in the game, and I don't want them to be overpowering in any part of the game either. I want them back to what they were meant to be, a support weapon, not a direct kill weapon.

[Orzorn]

Bleary, on 07 November 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

The tactics to stop massed LRM boats with dedicated defenders takes more coordination that a PuG can manage. But PuGs also can't coordinate massed LRM boats with dedicated defenders. They'd get one or two boats that did't focus their fire on the same targets, and inevitably dissolved into futile circle strafing as soon as a Jenner ran up to zap them on its way to their base. Or they'd fire away, do decent damage, then after 2 of the team's players stupidly zerg rushed into the whole enemy column and the rest of their team had lost the main engagement, they'd get mopped up in turn.

I played hundreds of PuG matches in between the last patch and this one. All I can keep telling you is that I did not see LRM boats scoring at the top of the tables or massed LRM tactics deciding many matches. What decided most of my matches were ***** lone wolves splitting off and getting killed or swarms of lights cutting our brawlers to pieces. And I'm very much not the only person who had this experience.

I had a different experience. Even when playing with a full 8 man premade, enemy LRM boat teams were brutal, particularly on Caustic Valley. You pretty much had one place to hide (behind the crater), and if you moved out, you'd get wrecked. If a light got in your face, you lose almost all of your armor before you could shoo them off. We only won because we waited until the less tactically inclined of the enemies rushed us and we killed them in a few seconds. When enough of them had thrown themselves at us, we would rush them and win. If they had simply waited, I have no doubt we'd eventually have been ground down.

With Artemis out and LRMs once again almost completely ignoring cover thanks to their arcs, I expect a situation like that would have been much more dire.

[potatoparrot]

Noth, on 07 November 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

Sigh, you don't see how having to rely on cover or an AMS blanket being the only strategies, unless you are a light mech is not dictating the metagame? Serious, it is one tactic and strategy. Everyone says there are numerous way to counter them but it's always use cover, use AMS blankets, or be a light. If that is not dictating the metagame I do not know what is.

I saw tons of non trial mech missile boats. I didn't really fear the trial mech missile boats because they typically ran out of Ammo fast meaning you weren't forced to sit in cover for most the match.

You're seriously baffling me here.

You claim there was only one strat for countering LRM boats, then list three different strategies that countered LRM boats.

In addition, the fact that a strategy to counter something existed is not indicative that the strategy was dictating the metagame. People were acting to counter LRMs, this really doesn't mean anything. People were acting to counter Lights with more Streaks, people were acting to counter Snipers by refusing to crest hills, people were acting to counter high heat generation by stacking more sinks, people were acting to counter streaks by using longer range weapons... None of these things were dominating the metagame.
In the absence of any of these actions, there would have been a problem. LRMs had lots of ways to be countered, thus they didn't dominate the metagame. They influenced it, yes, just like everything else. People acted to counter them to prevent the LRMs from slaughtering them - In the absence of any counters, the LRMs slaughtered them. In the absence of any Streaks, Lights would slaughter them. In the absence of any long range weaponry, Streaks would slaughter them etc.

Now let's talk post-patch, where none of these counters work any more. LRMs are now dominating the metagame as there is presently no counter to them - The previous ones just don't work any more. This is the problem. LRMs are killing everything in a way they didn't before - The scale has been tipped way too much. They went from pretty much just fine, an effective form of fire support that had an impact on the outcome of the game, to being game winning on their own.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

Artemis LRMs are actually much easier to dodge, provided you can break lock (i.e. take immediate notice of the incoming LRM warning and move to cover or break line of sight with nearby enemies). That's because an Artemis LRM barrage that loses lock will drop right straight down where you last were standing. You can literally almost sidestep them like that orc commander did with the incoming catapult rock in the LotR Return of the King movie.

Regular LRMs would keep travelling in on a diagonal arc, often slamming you in the face even if you could break lock.


.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 07 November 2012 - 06:36 AM.

[Marev Kilmer]

I am just shocked after this patch. As a long time MechWarrior fan, I can certainly say that LRMs are overpowered. In fact, they sit comfortably at the apex of weaponry in this game. They were already too powerful before the improvement of grouping, approach angles, and Artemis. With the current changes, frankly I'm minimally interested in continuing to play this game I love so much, because it is no longer a faithful representation of anything but paramount frustration.

LRMs are meant to be suppressive fire. They are not meant to rain hell and destruction down on the enemy, shredding armor away like artillery and rocking an enemy pilot into a half dozen concussions. They are not meant to sit in the back lines and steal (STEAL) every single kill on the battlefield. I've seen LRM boats score well over 1500 damage in matches on more occasions than I can count; far more than any other build I've seen. And what skill does all of this take? Sitting in the back of the field, waiting for targets, and clicking a button over and over again. At least Streak cats have to be in the action and maintaining targets while maneuvering.

Now, I consider myself a decent pilot at best, with a KDR somewhere around 3.5 before this last patch. I use cover effectively. I stay moving. I prey on LRM boats in the back lines to mitigate the associated risk for teammates. Currently I run in a Cicada modified to tote around heavy armor and a quintet of medium lasers. Nonetheless, being hit by a single salvo of LRMs puts me into critical damage.

Those saying that the key to avoid LRM damage is AMS and cover are absolutely ridiculous. AMS is not nearly powerful enough to mitigate the LRMs of even a single enemy, let alone multiple. Now with the changes in missile damage clustering and firing arcs, cover is minimally useful, and nevermind it anyway if a spotter is sticking you. Turn your attention to deal with the spotter and be blown away by the LRMs. With the addition of Artemis, approaching LRM boats is nothing but a suicide mission with maps that have such wide-open advances.

The problem of course is that LRMs aren't meant to be used so widespread. They actually do what they are supposed to do, but it is obvious that with players favoring them so heavily, they are out of balance.

So for now, to successfully mitigate the damage of LRMs, MechWarriors have no choice but to remain in cover for the entire match. That is not fun. And it is not what MechWarrior is about...

Edited by Marev Kilmer, 07 November 2012 - 06:41 AM.

[Z0MBIE Y0SHI]

I bet the people defending LRMs' current implementation would love a trench warfare simulator.

[Noth]

Jings, on 07 November 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

You're seriously baffling me here.

You claim there was only one strat for countering LRM boats, then list three different strategies that countered LRM boats.

In addition, the fact that a strategy to counter something existed is not indicative that the strategy was dictating the metagame. People were acting to counter LRMs, this really doesn't mean anything. People were acting to counter Lights with more Streaks, people were acting to counter Snipers by refusing to crest hills, people were acting to counter high heat generation by stacking more sinks, people were acting to counter streaks by using longer range weapons... None of these things were dominating the metagame.
In the absence of any of these actions, there would have been a problem. LRMs had lots of ways to be countered, thus they didn't dominate the metagame. They influenced it, yes, just like everything else. People acted to counter them to prevent the LRMs from slaughtering them - In the absence of any counters, the LRMs slaughtered them. In the absence of any Streaks, Lights would slaughter them. In the absence of any long range weaponry, Streaks would slaughter them etc.

Now let's talk post-patch, where none of these counters work any more. LRMs are now dominating the metagame as there is presently no counter to them - The previous ones just don't work any more. This is the problem. LRMs are killing everything in a way they didn't before - The scale has been tipped way too much. They went from pretty much just fine, an effective form of fire support that had an impact on the outcome of the game, to being game winning on their own.

AMS blanket is meant directly to counter LRM spam without having to remain in cover, it really doesn't counter anything else at all. There are two strats sorry and one tactic. The Strats are AMS blankets and having lights go harrass the LRMs while you hide in over. The tactic is hide in cover. Streaks could effectively kill any mech and effectively countered any mech not just lights. I could counter streaks by just using what was available on my mech, I didn't have to mount anything special. Heck I could even counter them in their dedicated range by being a good shot. Sniper I could counter by small terrain changes and good unpredictable movement. A small hill could effectively stop a sniper shot or throw the aim off enough it would hit something much less vital.

Post patch is only showing increased symptoms (the few counters no longer work) of a poorly design weapons systems.

Edited by Noth, 07 November 2012 - 06:39 AM.