65 replies to this topic

[VanillaG]

Nice analysis but you have left out the Pilot Efficiencies which modify both the heat dissipation(+7.5% at Basic and +15% at Elite) and heat capacity(+10% at Basic and +20% at Elite). I think at if you wanted to keep the max dissipation the same as table top when you have unlocked Elite the starting value for DHS needs to be .174.

The other part that is missing is how the weapons behave at the various efficiency levels. Any change that you make at the top end might have the effect of making the stock designs even worse. Personally I think you need to look at balancing the weapons at the Basic unlock level even though it harms the Trial Mechs.

[Allekatrase]

VanillaG, on 07 November 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Nice analysis but you have left out the Pilot Efficiencies which modify both the heat dissipation(+7.5% at Basic and +15% at Elite) and heat capacity(+10% at Basic and +20% at Elite). I think at if you wanted to keep the max dissipation the same as table top when you have unlocked Elite the starting value for DHS needs to be .174.

The other part that is missing is how the weapons behave at the various efficiency levels. Any change that you make at the top end might have the effect of making the stock designs even worse. Personally I think you need to look at balancing the weapons at the Basic unlock level even though it harms the Trial Mechs.

While I can agree that the value needs to take into account bonuses, I also think the current XP system and bonuses are lame and need a complete rework

[Khobai]

Ive done the math on DHS and reached the conclusion that they need to dissipate at least 0.17 heat per second in order for most mech builds to benefit from using them over SHS.

[Vermaxx]

1.4 value becomes 1.61 with Elite pilot tier.

The mech/engine speed boost is enough reason to grind up to Elite if you didn't think doubling the entire Basic tier was worth it to begin with.

They specifically do not want 2.0 sinks, so coming up with the perfect number to hit 2.0 is a waste of effort. I personally think the sinks are fine now, having accepted that most maps funnel you into short/medium range anyway; and therefore using large type energy weapons is often a waste for me. Except large lasers, god I want another Awesome with large lasers.

All they need to do is add some role stuff into the Pilot trees, like skill tree specialization in WoW. Assault mech pilots could get an ADDITIONAL heatsink function for specializing in assault mechs, etc.

Clearly, light and medium would not get heat bonuses in their trees, since the system is already slanted toward using smaller weapons.

I think raising the cooldowns as much as people have expressed would make the game less run and gun, and less fun. You've basically made a small laser as slow as a gauss, so why would anyone take anything but gauss, if given the choice?

Edited by Vermaxx, 07 November 2012 - 08:53 AM.

[Cmdr Harabec]

Yes, could not agree more with your findings. It's pretty much impossible to disagree, but some people still manage to thinking that games aren't built entirely on math when it comes to weapon performance. I wish I could like this post more than once.

As piloting skills go, those should just remain bonuses ontop of how well DHS perform as it is. It's a little extra and that's fine. Though, really, I think it's a bit silly you get all of them -- and further HAVE to -- for all chassis to go to the next. Wouldn't it be better if you could only pick X amount, meaning your mech was tailored to a particular way? That'd work best with even more options than currently presented, of course. But this is off topic a bit...

The problem with starting at 1.4 is that the instant they announced it, everyone knew it was too low. There didn't need to be any testing because math determines how well the weapons do, and the facts of what that'd do were brought up within the hour. More to the point, the math proved that overall 2.0 efficiency was not overpowered, only a small, small sections of weapons were.... Which still wouldn't be as powerful as LRMs have been made, frankly.

Edit:

Also, increasing the cooldown/cycle rate for Gauss would be a great thing as well. It definitely fires too fast. Their convergence when mounting two should be fixed as well, if no one's going to fix the whole "Catapult carrying weapons way larger than its mounts should reasonably allow it to" issue.

Edited by Cmdr Harabec, 07 November 2012 - 08:56 AM.

[Tuhalu]

VanillaG, on 07 November 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Nice analysis but you have left out the Pilot Efficiencies which modify both the heat dissipation(+7.5% at Basic and +15% at Elite) and heat capacity(+10% at Basic and +20% at Elite). I think at if you wanted to keep the max dissipation the same as table top when you have unlocked Elite the starting value for DHS needs to be .174.

The other part that is missing is how the weapons behave at the various efficiency levels. Any change that you make at the top end might have the effect of making the stock designs even worse. Personally I think you need to look at balancing the weapons at the Basic unlock level even though it harms the Trial Mechs.

Ah yes. This will change the areas of most of the weapons by some amount (although Trial Mechs will never have this advantage!). It won't fix small and medium lasers. As high heat weapons, they get an advantage from these efficiencies.

It would be worth everyone's time to see graphs adjusted with these efficiencies though

[Mawai]

riverslq, on 07 November 2012 - 06:48 AM, said:

If they'd only have a beta test server open like WoT does so the community can get their hands on early patches to find out problems they missed. Yeah, I know MWO is still in 'beta', but the crap they've been sending out is pushing away old users and pretty much killing off the new ones too.

For the amount of stuff the community finds, and their team doesn't... I think they need our help (and god knows if they listen.,..)

LOL ... ... sorry this made me laugh. The MWO servers ARE Beta test servers ... Like it or not the game isn't ready for prime time ... it certainly hasn't "launched" depending on how they define the term and the developers clearly consider it "Open Beta". If they had a larger internal testing team then perhaps they could catch some of the issues before they made it out to the "Open Beta" servers.

For example, I would think that they would have an automated test suite ... a series of matches which spawn two mechs facing each other in different positions. One fires at the other until the other is destroyed with dozens of variations. Damage due to crits would be monitored and all of these would generate logs that would be automatically parsed. End result would be an automated regression test suite that would flag performance changes between builds and likely catch many of the bugs before they make it to live servers. The effect of single and double heat sinks could be monitored ... time to overheat, time to shutdown, heat level at shutdown ... there are many items that could be monitored and used to flag issues.

[MustrumRidcully]

Tuhalu, on 07 November 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

Ah yes. This will change the areas of most of the weapons by some amount (although Trial Mechs will never have this advantage!). It won't fix small and medium lasers. As high heat weapons, they get an advantage from these efficiencies.

It would be worth everyone's time to see graphs adjusted with these efficiencies though

WOuld it also be worth Vapor Trail's time, though? I figure he may do it in the end, but you have to realize... making these charts is a lot of work. On the other hand, what else is he gonna do - play the game with the current patch?

[Apoc1138]

BA Dillard, on 07 November 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

You understand the 1.4 is the lower end starting point, yes? They can, and probably will tweek it over time. Be patient young Padawan, be mindful of the Living Force.

Now, I will admit to the fact that I have not yet personally tried DHS yet. However I have heard from some that some builds benifit and some do not. So I understand some of your frustration. The Devs are aware of your frustration, they are a small company trying their best to please everyone. Relax, go and test some more. Have fun.

I'm losing my ability to believe this.
I've been one of the staunchest supporters of MWO but the more they tighten their grip Tarkin, the more players will slip through their fingers.

They are making huge changes to things they don't need to when a tiny change to the actual problem item would be much easier.

DHS' only help you if you only run engine heatsinks or a small handful of mounted heatsinks due to weight contraints (e.g. small mechs)... if you are running anything over about 22 SHS then switching to DHS' either reduces your heat capability or keeps it the same with very a minor weight saving (which you can't use to increase your damage output because doing so increases your heat output but you can't mount any more heatsinks to compensate).

Roll on jagermech or cataphract with dual gauss basically

[Vapor Trail]

Heh... I've patched... and I have yet to play. At best, I'm going to find myself in a decent 4 man team and probably stomping at least as hard as I usually do, maybe with a bit more challenge. Or I'm going to find myself just getting LRMed to death.

Or at least that's the impression I get from the forums.

As for the efficiencies. I thought the entire point behind them was for them to be a "small" boost. 15% to heat dissipation is pretty darn close to 1/7th (3/20 vs 3/21). Basically for every 7 heat sinks you run you get a free heat sink. So running about fourteen heat sinks gives you two free tons on your mech.

There were times in TT when I was designing a mech where I would have considered killing and eating people for an extra half ton to put another heat sink on.

The efficiencies are an additional complication that I'd like to address once we get a working weapon balance down. Take it in order... big stuff first, little stuff once the big stuff is working.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 07 November 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[Tuhalu]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 November 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

WOuld it also be worth Vapor Trail's time, though? I figure he may do it in the end, but you have to realize... making these charts is a lot of work. On the other hand, what else is he gonna do - play the game with the current patch?

Maybe. I got the impression he was punching numbers into a spreadsheet and then making images of the graphs that produced. If that's the case, it's a simple change and maybe 10 mins of work. If he's doing it by hand, then certainly not

[Vermaxx]

Yeah, playing this game is a giant pain. I'd rather watch my baby. Or clean the kitchen. Or any of the things I didn't do last night and had to rush through before work this morning because I WAS PLAYING THE GAME.

The game is loads better when in a team. That is Emperical Fact Number One.

The game is loads better when one of your team has LRM+Artemis. That is Emperical Fact Number Two.

Heatsinks favor small mechs with too many crit slots and not a lot of large type weapons. That is Empirical Fact Number Three.

The maps often make large type weapons impractical, certainly you are not hurting anywhere if you skip them. That is Empirical Fact Number Four.

I could go on, but why bother. The heat system is fine for most mechs and most people. They will figure out a way to make large type weapons work better, at least compared to the raw min/max dps potential of smaller type weapons. I really doubt this will ever be a game of shining balance examples for you 'esports' players. It will always be quirky Battletech. It will probably get to a point where everything is at least 'generally useful' in the near future.

LRM+Artemis will either get toned down, or ECM is so gorramn good every one will slot it as an upgrade in every mech. I personally think that is more likely. They are slowly eroding our mechs with 'mandatory upgrades.' Endo and DHS eat up crit slots, Artemis/ECM/BAP(maybe?) eat up tonnage. Once the game is DONE(ish), I expect things will be a lot more palatable.

This from the guy who claimed gauss was always balanced (or would be with DHS and community warfare economies), that 2.0DHS HAD TO BE IMPLEMENTED OR HE WOULD QUIT (they're generally ok now while still making heat a thing), and that the game is going to go out of business if things continue.

I think Piranha's number one problem is they don't communicate well. They're relying on podcats, and twitter feeds, and facebook threads. They need to sit down one day and have an exhaustive post about how things are going. Cite real examples, give concrete hopes for the future. Some of them won't be possible and will have to be changed, but at least they could show they are trying to get the info out there.

I think that the single biggest threat to MWO surviving is the lack of any kind of goal. Grinding mechs and xp isn't enough, without the huge community warfare hook, the game is going to limp along. I only hope it survives the demands of the production company and investors until CW (theoretically) saves it.

[Sprouticus]

Excellent post, thanks for all your work. However, I think you are missing a few big issues


1) While RIGHT NOW, changing only ml and sl would probably fix the issue, it still means that DHS are pretty much mandatory for all mechs. This would not be the end of the world, but it does add a huge cost to every mech, which free players wont like (especially on their 1st mech). It also makes trial mechs REALLY useless.

2) PGI has to balance more than just right now. They have new mechs coming out, and those new mechs will allow configs we cant look at right now. DHS @ 2.0 would make the balancing more difficult. Much more difficult. Unless, again, they assume everyone is at DHS. But then why even have SHS

3) Regardless of everything else, raising heat sink capacity raises total DPS (mechs can either afford more weapons or afford to fire them more). This lowers time to kill when engaged with a mech, It also lowers total game time. PGI is shooting (pun intended) for a 10-15 minute game. I would prefer more, but that is their call. Lowering that time is a real problem.

[Matist]

BA Dillard, on 07 November 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

You understand the 1.4 is the lower end starting point, yes? They can, and probably will tweek it over time. Be patient young Padawan, be mindful of the Living Force.

I think his point was that it doesn't really matter how you tweak the 1.4 number since small and medium lasers are out of whack and therefore throw everything else off.

It's really obvious in play how much better normal lasers are over pulse variants and again his graphs show that off perfectly.

[Vermaxx]

Sprouticus, on 07 November 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Excellent post, thanks for all your work. However, I think you are missing a few big issues


1) While RIGHT NOW, changing only ml and sl would probably fix the issue, it still means that DHS are pretty much mandatory for all mechs. This would not be the end of the world, but it does add a huge cost to every mech, which free players wont like (especially on their 1st mech). It also makes trial mechs REALLY useless.

2) PGI has to balance more than just right now. They have new mechs coming out, and those new mechs will allow configs we cant look at right now. DHS @ 2.0 would make the balancing more difficult. Much more difficult. Unless, again, they assume everyone is at DHS. But then why even have SHS

3) Regardless of everything else, raising heat sink capacity raises total DPS (mechs can either afford more weapons or afford to fire them more). This lowers time to kill when engaged with a mech, It also lowers total game time. PGI is shooting (pun intended) for a 10-15 minute game. I would prefer more, but that is their call. Lowering that time is a real problem.

DHS are mandatory. Add 1.5 million to the cost of any mech, or buy the mech with CB and use the CB you saved for DHS and endo, or whatever.

DHS Are Mandatory in Battletech, THAT is Empirical Rule Number Five.

Why have SHS at all? After DHS and large type weapons are properly balanced, there won't be a reason. Some people will prefer the critsavings of regulars.

You're right, 1.4HS is going to make a lot of the Clan and fancy IS designs hard to use. That may be the tradeoff, that your Timberwolf (you know who you are) isn't the Almighty God of Battletech anymore. You may have to be more sparing with your fire.

CLAN DHS will make every other choice completely nonsensical. Accept this, and you will be happier in MWO.

[Sprouticus]

Vapor Trail, on 07 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Heh... I've patched... and I have yet to play. At best, I'm going to find myself in a decent 4 man team and probably stomping at least as hard as I usually do, maybe with a bit more challenge. Or I'm going to find myself just getting LRMed to death.

Or at least that's the impression I get from the forums.

As for the efficiencies. I thought the entire point behind them was for them to be a "small" boost. 15% to heat dissipation is pretty darn close to 1/7th (3/20 vs 3/21). Basically for every 7 heat sinks you run you get a free heat sink. So running about fourteen heat sinks gives you two free tons on your mech.

There were times in TT when I was designing a mech where I would have considered killing and eating people for an extra half ton to put another heat sink on.

The efficiencies are an additional complication that I'd like to address once we get a working weapon balance down. Take it in order... big stuff first, little stuff once the big stuff is working.

so you did math but didnt actually test the game?

[Tuhalu]

Sprouticus, on 07 November 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Excellent post, thanks for all your work. However, I think you are missing a few big issues


1) While RIGHT NOW, changing only ml and sl would probably fix the issue, it still means that DHS are pretty much mandatory for all mechs. This would not be the end of the world, but it does add a huge cost to every mech, which free players wont like (especially on their 1st mech). It also makes trial mechs REALLY useless.

3) Regardless of everything else, raising heat sink capacity raises total DPS (mechs can either afford more weapons or afford to fire them more). This lowers time to kill when engaged with a mech, It also lowers total game time. PGI is shooting (pun intended) for a 10-15 minute game. I would prefer more, but that is their call. Lowering that time is a real problem.

1/ DHS are pretty much mandatory only on most mechs. There will always be some mechs that just don't need them or use SHS due to critical considerations. Some Trial Mechs will have DHS as more stock mechs with DHS are added to the game.

3/ Actually, mechs get a choice of doing a number of things due to DHS. DPS is only one of them. The other possibilities are taking out their XL engines so they are harder to kill (in cases where they can't really go fast like Assault mechs!) or putting in a bigger XL engine so they are harder to kill and more manoeuverable. You are making the false assumption that every player has already chosen to do the defensive stuff and only has buffing their DPS left.

[MustrumRidcully]

Tuhalu, on 07 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Maybe. I got the impression he was punching numbers into a spreadsheet and then making images of the graphs that produced. If that's the case, it's a simple change and maybe 10 mins of work. If he's doing it by hand, then certainly not

Well,it all depends how you set your formulaes up. For example, I used a formula that assumed that heat sinks add their heat dissipation value (x10) to the heat capacity. Changing this will require some handiwork. And their tonnage is also calculated based on a single efficiency modifier, and with the rounding necessary to get to "real" heat sinks and not 1.35 heat sinks for some setup, this may no longer work with uneven numbers. I'll have to check.

Of course, those are my excel sheets. Vapor Trail may have been more clevererer than me.

[Super Mono]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 November 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

In MW:O, the range disadvantage isn't as significant. In TT, hitting with a medium laser at 90m was difficult, and if you got even closer, the enemy mech may just end up hitting you in melee and kicking your mech to trash.

What do you know, when you directly implement only half of a game's rules and systems it throws the whole thing out of whack..

[Vapor Trail]

Tuhalu, on 07 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Maybe. I got the impression he was punching numbers into a spreadsheet and then making images of the graphs that produced. If that's the case, it's a simple change and maybe 10 mins of work. If he's doing it by hand, then certainly not

Yeah it's a spreadsheet. But the design work on the basic formulae is what takes the time. I have to think about three steps ahead of where I am so I don't have to sit there and punch the same number in to thirty different cells just to change one figure.

This is what it looked like about 2/3s the way through, before I added most of the ballistics (and the CBBal). Sorry about the readability though... Photobucket eats images over a certain dimensional size, and this pic was taken at the native resolution of my desktop.



If you're curious, the graphs represent the weapons at TT roF.
Damage(range), DPS(range), and DPSpT(range) respectively.