206 replies to this topic

[Oswin Aurelius]

Bryan Ekman, on 19 April 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Even though you can and will be able to recreate some variants using MechLab, XP will not accumulate for a particular chassis unless you actually purchase and use it. A Jenner JR7-D is still a JR7-D, even if you make it look like a JR7-F. The serial number on the chassis still says JR7-D.

The problem people are trying to point out is that people will be able to take a variant that has the XP tree they want, and then find some way to customize the hell out of it to make it more efficient than the actual variant and it's XP tree.

I personally agree with this. You have a mech. You get good at using said mech. You gain a personal attachment to said mech, but want to mix up the weapon configuration. Cool, mechwarriors do that all the time in the novels. Now, if you started with the stock variant for the Hunchback, for example, why the bloody hell would it have ANY XP rewards that would make a PPC more effective? It wouldn't. You (and your mech, but that's just me personifying them ) aren't used to mounting PPCs on it, and the chassis isn't specifically made for it, so you're never going to achieve the same level of efficiency as a variant that was designed to mount energy weapons instead.

The only weapons that should gain any XP rewards from leveling a mech variant that aren't its default loadout should be ones that are very similar. Oh, those medium lasers you got in the arms? You might be able to swap them out for smalls and still gain a damage bonus, but that should be it. A PPC is absolutely nothing like a medium laser except for the fact that they're both classified as energy weapons and don't use ammo. Even including large lasers might be pushing it a bit too much.

A prime example of this is the Dragon compared to the Grand Dragon variant. The Dragon would only have the slightest damn idea what to do with a PPC mounted in either of its energy hardpoints (if possible), but the Grand Dragon would straight-up smack its pilot in the head (if it could) if it knew he was trying to swap it's PPC for an Autocannon, which is completely impossible. Thus, the Grand Dragon is going to have absolutely ZERO rewards that deal with ballistic weapons, and the normal Dragon shouldn't have any that involved energy-heavy weaponry. And on top of that, an AC/20 in the Dragon's arm would probably gain very little as well, being VASTLY different from the AC/5, not to mention the recoil could cause some serious damage to those arm joints.

EDIT: Hell yeah, top of the page! XD

Edited by Oswin Aurelius, 19 April 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[Bryan Ekman]

William Petersen, on 19 April 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

I tend to think in Jenners because I like that design and am familiar with them. But, for example, take the JR7-F and JR7-D. I drop the SRM and ammo on the D and add 3 tons armour. Oshit, I just made a JR7-F and can still level the exact same chassis twice.

Well, for one, you can only level a chassis (JR7-D) once. If you made a fake JR7-F out of a -D chassis, you would only get XP in the JR7-D tree. Which is perfectly fine and cool. However, you won't gain the benefits of being a Jenner or Light BattleMech Expert per se, since you did not level up each variant. So a player who takes the time to XP-up each chassis type, will have an advantage over someone who doesn't.

Does that help/make sense?

[Oswin Aurelius]

I seem to have been a bit short-sighted in my example for not including the Elite tiers where you truly master a mech CHASSIS, rather than just one variant, but I'm sure you can all extrapolate.

[William Petersen]

Bryan Ekman, on 19 April 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

Well, for one, you can only level a chassis (JR7-D) once. If you made a fake JR7-F out of a -D chassis, you would only get XP in the JR7-D tree. Which is perfectly fine and cool. However, you won't gain the benefits of being a Jenner or Light BattleMech Expert per se, since you did not level up each variant. So a player who takes the time to XP-up each chassis type, will have an advantage over someone who doesn't.

Does that help/make sense?

I totally understand that. What I'm staying is this:

I have a JR7-D.
I make a JR7-F with it.
It's still a JR7-D.
I level it up, and max out a JR7-D.
Now I buy a JR7-F for realsies.
I level up the JR7-F and max it out.

I've now maxed out two variants while only really ever playing one 'configuration'. I think that's what the OP is talking about, and like I said, I don't see how that's necessarily a bad thing, or even really preventable. If a player wants to play in that kind of boring way, well, that's their choice. /shrugs And yeah, when you hop in the *real* -F, you're not going to have all the perks and things you had in your "-D that you made into an -F."

Personally, I like my missiles and will be sad when the time comes I have to level the -F. XD

[Orzorn]

William Petersen, on 19 April 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

I totally understand that. What I'm staying is this:

I have a JR7-D.
I make a JR7-F with it.
It's still a JR7-D.
I level it up, and max out a JR7-D.
Now I buy a JR7-F for realsies.
I level up the JR7-F and max it out.

I've now maxed out two variants while only really ever playing one 'configuration'. I think that's what the OP is talking about, and like I said, I don't see how that's necessarily a bad thing, or even really preventable. If a player wants to play in that kind of boring way, well, that's their choice. /shrugs And yeah, when you hop in the *real* -F, you're not going to have all the perks and things you had in your "-D that you made into an -F."

Personally, I like my missiles and will be sad when the time comes I have to level the -F. XD

I believe they also mentioned something about different variants having different arm movement degrees and torso twist speeds and angles.

So the same "variant" will still be different on actual variants, because they have different capabilities.

Edit: I looked and couldn't find anything... but I swear I heard something like that.
Or maybe I'm just losing my mind.

Edited by Orzorn, 19 April 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[Havoc2]

William Petersen, on 19 April 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

I totally understand that. What I'm staying is this:

I have a JR7-D.
I make a JR7-F with it.
It's still a JR7-D.
I level it up, and max out a JR7-D.
Now I buy a JR7-F for realsies.
I level up the JR7-F and max it out.

I've now maxed out two variants while only really ever playing one 'configuration'. I think that's what the OP is talking about, and like I said, I don't see how that's necessarily a bad thing, or even really preventable.

Or even really a problem?


I am curious about this talk of BattleMech XP now though. If we as a pilot purchase a variant, is it now locked to us or can we re-sell it?
If we can re-sell it, does the XP/abilities we unlocked on that variant stay with that variant, or are they simply unlocked under our pilot profile as proficient with Chassis X, Variant Y?

Orzorn, on 19 April 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

I believe they also mentioned something about different variants having different arm movement degrees and torso twist speeds and angles.

So the same "variant" will still be different on actual variants, because they have different capabilities.

Edit: I looked and couldn't find anything... but I swear I heard something like that.
Or maybe I'm just losing my mind.

Stock variant A vs. stock variant B should be the same, however once you unlock proficiencies on variant A it will perform better than variant B until you unlock those same proficiencies.

I believe is how it's been stated to work.

[LackofCertainty]

William Petersen, on 19 April 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

I totally understand that. What I'm staying is this:

I have a JR7-D.
I make a JR7-F with it.
It's still a JR7-D.
I level it up, and max out a JR7-D.
Now I buy a JR7-F for realsies.
I level up the JR7-F and max it out.

I've now maxed out two variants while only really ever playing one 'configuration'. I think that's what the OP is talking about, and like I said, I don't see how that's necessarily a bad thing, or even really preventable. If a player wants to play in that kind of boring way, well, that's their choice. /shrugs And yeah, when you hop in the *real* -F, you're not going to have all the perks and things you had in your "-D that you made into an -F."

Personally, I like my missiles and will be sad when the time comes I have to level the -F. XD

I very much agree that this doesn't matter at all.

In this scenario:

1. You've still spent the money to buy the two variants. (Money sink checked off)
2. You've still spent the same amount of time in the two variants. (Time sink checked off)
3. The player in question has only gained experience with one type of mech. (slight downside, but you can't stop people from doing what they want)


I feel like this argument is silly, because if you boil it down enough you could say, "Customization is dumb, because I can make my hunchback function like a ppc boat." Okay. but if I wanted a ppc boat I could play an Awesome.

Sprouticus, on 19 April 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Let me describe ascenario that outlines my concerns.

NOTE: This is one example, I am sure I could think of others, but try to get past the specifics and see the root issue the example highlights.

The Jenner-A has 1 LL.
The Jenner-D has 4 ML.
The Jenner-C has 3 ML and a C3 slave


They have the same equipment otherwise.

I dont like having my scout only have medium lasers, and I dont want to have to learn to pilot my Jenner-D with medium lasers

So I remove all 4 medium lasers & 1 HS
Add 1 Large Laser. . Now I have a quasi-Jenner-A. It doesnt matter that the F has 4 hardpoints, all I need is one for the LL.

Most likely we won't have all these variants for the jenner, Sproticus. You're assuming that they're going to put in variants that are essentially the same, but as was said, "there would be no point" The Jenner is a curious case, because basically all of it's variants are just minor tweaks. Honestly, I'd rather see the devs do some all new variants that support more diversity, rather than doing the cannon "It's like the base jenner, but we pulled off a laser. -This- one is like the base jenner, but we pulled off the missiles. -=This=- one is like the base jenner, but we pulled off -3- lasers." (jenner designers are so boring)

Edited by LackofCertainty, 19 April 2012 - 12:16 PM.

[Colorfinger]

I understand the concern but don't agree that it is a problem. If players have to spend and build out their Mech the way they want in the Mech lab 4 times in 4 variants to master a Mech, so be it. That is their choice. If a player sucks with missiles and doesn't want to master them but is really found of a specific chassis, they should be able to master that Chassis and never have to fire a missile from it. After all, in the chassis they pilot this is no missiles. That doesn't make the XP system valueless. It just means that specific player isn't forced to play in a Mech they don't like for sake of leveling. Why force someone to mash away in a Mech they hate just so that they can get XP?

I think the devs are doing a nice job of balancing Mechlab custom jobs with variants. There is no way to make us all happy but they seem to have a good balance in place.

[Rhavin]

I don't think there will be as many varients as some people think. We have seen alot of focus on the Jenner, but lets look at another mech.

Hunchback alone has 16 types on Sarna, 8 of which are valid in our timeline, however most of the changes are minor. The varients we will see will be major changes in the mechs loadout, like from Swayback (energy boat) to 4j (missle boat) . Not likely to see the 4sp (SRM's instead of AC) because the ballistic hardpoints have already been changed to missles for the 4j, same for any varient that swaps the ac 20 out for a smaller AC , unless that varient adds many more criticals or hardpoints to other areas of the chassis.

A varient could even be designed around the fact that it has an additional stock module slot. Of for the simple fact that it mounts electronics, or has different internal structure or engine.

I am thinking there will be 3 to 5 for most Chassis. for Hunchback I predict Stock (ac-20), Swayback, and 4j.

Edited by Rhavin, 19 April 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[Famous]

Rhavin, on 19 April 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

I don't think there will be as many varients as some people think. We have seen alot of focus on the Jenner, but lets look at another mech.

Hunchback alone has 16 types on Sarna, 8 of which are valid in our timeline, however most of the changes are minor. The varients we will see will be major changes in the mechs loadout, like from Swayback (energy boat) to 4j (missle boat) . Not likely to see the 4sp (SRM's instead of AC) because the ballistic hardpoints have already been changed to missles for the 4j, same for any varient that swaps the ac 20 out for a smaller AC , unless that varient adds many more criticals or hardpoints to other areas of the chassis.

A varient could even be designed around the fact that it has an additional stock module slot. Of for the simple fact that it mounts electronics, or has different internal structure or engine.

I am thinking there will be 3 to 5 for most Chassis. for Hunchback I predict Stock (ac-20), Swayback, and 4j.

^This is what I was trying to point out in my previous post. Just because Sarna lists a wide variety of variants doesn't mean we will see them in the game.

Taking the Jenner as our example I would expect there to be two chassis for the Jenner- JR7-K and JR7-C2, aka Laser Jenner and Missile Jenner. All of the other listed versions can be made by customizing one of these chassis.

I'm fully expecting a difference in the number of 'MechLab variants and canon variants. In the BTU there is no easy swap 'MechLab so you get different production runs with "minor" changes ie. -C, -K, -F but we don't have to worry about that. So the number of available variants will be based on the number of distinct load outs rather than every single change listed

[Orzorn]

Famous, on 19 April 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

^This is what I was trying to point out in my previous post. Just because Sarna lists a wide variety of variants doesn't mean we will see them in the game.

Taking the Jenner as our example I would expect there to be two chassis for the Jenner- JR7-K and JR7-C2, aka Laser Jenner and Missile Jenner. All of the other listed versions can be made by customizing one of these chassis.

I'm fully expecting a difference in the number of 'MechLab variants and canon variants. In the BTU there is no easy swap 'MechLab so you get different production runs with "minor" changes ie. -C, -K, -F but we don't have to worry about that. So the number of available variants will be based on the number of distinct load outs rather than every single change listed

Good point. As long as you can make every canonical variant, it doesn't really matter to have all of them as their own separate variant. Like you said, just having 2 different Jenners is enough to support all of the canon variants.

[William Petersen]

Well, on the Dev blog in the comments they already said some variants will come with HPs that are unused in the default loadout, so it may well be that the -F and -D are differentiable, maybe the F has a pair of ballistic HPs in the side torsos (or maybe something not quite that extreme), who knows? Time will tell.

David Bradley, on 18 April 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

I just want to say that Garth is right about this being more or less right.

Also, regarding some of the other confusion in here about how one weapon gets replaced with two or more, I'll give you this example. Just because a stock Hunchback 4G, fresh out of the Technical Readouts, only has a single Medium Laser in each arm, that doesn't mean that it only has one energy hardpoint in each arm. It could have two energy hardpoints in each arm, allowing the player to put in extra weapons. The default loadout just isn't using all the hardpoints, because it's already at its weight limit. The number of hardpoints are related to the default loadout, but they aren't a one for one copy.

EDIT: Bold/underline the quote for ease of locating relevant phrases.

Edited by William Petersen, 19 April 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[Rhavin]

Guess we will see how it pans out at release, I know I will lvl the hunchback or dragon first. To me doesn't make any sense to bounce from mech to mech unless your new to the BTU, you would gain more from picking a mech and then bounceing from one Varient to the Next depending on your playstyle and the needs of the mission before you. So far for me still itching for a dragon or a hunchback. Lvling will also be determined by how long it takes to max out a specific varient. My bet is that the more varients possible the less time to lvl each one, whereas Chassis with less varients will take longer to max out the tree. Thus ensureing some balance in lvling.

[Gun Bear]

Hardpoints people. You won't be able to mount a big arse laser onto the shoulder of a standard hunchback because it will only be a hardpoint for ballistic weapons. Different variants will have different hardpoints so even if you switch around weapons you can't change weapons types. The Standard Hunchback is designed around a ballistic hardpoint to mount an AC 20 on it. Maybe you could place a gauss rifle there, or a bunch of AC/2s but you won't be able to put a missile or laser there. The two arms sport an energy hardpoint each. You can't turn that into a Swayback, and you can't turn a swayback into a 4J, and you can't turn a 4J into a Regular hunchback. Mechlab will not break leveling.

[GargoyleKDR]

Gun Bear, on 19 April 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Hardpoints people. You won't be able to mount a big arse laser onto the shoulder of a standard hunchback because it will only be a hardpoint for ballistic weapons. ... You can't turn that into a Swayback,

No, but you turn a Swayback into an 2xPPC with 4xML (or better) carrying Mech within the limitations of the Hardpoint system. It has the crits, hardpoint weapon count, and available weight to do it.

The down-side is that nearly all the weapons are in the RT. That's a common limitiation of all HB variants.

Edited by GargoyleKDR, 19 April 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Oswin Aurelius]

GargoyleKDR, on 19 April 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

No, but you turn a Swayback into an 2xPPC with 4xML (or better) carrying Mech within the limitations of the Hardpoint system. It has the crits, hardpoint weapon count, and available weight to do it.

The down-side is that nearly all the weapons are in the RT. That's a common limitiation of all HB variants.

I think we've established this by now. Yes, we'll be able to mount PPCs on a Swayback, what are you getting at?

[GargoyleKDR]

Oswin Aurelius, on 19 April 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

I think we've established this by now. Yes, we'll be able to mount PPCs on a Swayback, what are you getting at?

I'm just pointing out that what you can't do with one variant may be possible with a different available variant within the hardpoint system. It's going to take some experimentation with the Mechlab to establish exactly what is possible.

[UncleKulikov]

OP
Isn't there just 1 level tree per mech, including it's chassis and variants?
as it turns out, no there isn't. Some more details on "scout master" and "light mastery" would help.

GargoyleKDR, on 19 April 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

No, but you turn a Swayback into an 2xPPC with 4xML (or better) carrying Mech within the limitations of the Hardpoint system. It has the crits, hardpoint weapon count, and available weight to do it.

The down-side is that nearly all the weapons are in the RT. That's a common limitiation of all HB variants.

Sure you can. Which will generate 20 heat just from firing the PPCs. That and 2 ppcs weighs a lot more than the 6 medium lasers, taking up weight that could go to heat sinks to remedy that problem.

Edited by UncleKulikov, 19 April 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[William Petersen]

Gun Bear, on 19 April 2012 - 01:23 PM, said:

Hardpoints people. You won't be able to mount a big arse laser onto the shoulder of a standard hunchback because it will only be a hardpoint for ballistic weapons.

Maybe not the torso, no, but I could sock one in each arm of a 4G, since it has a MLas in each arm...

[Sprouticus]

Bryan Ekman, on 19 April 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Even though you can and will be able to recreate some variants using MechLab, XP will not accumulate for a particular chassis unless you actually purchase and use it. A Jenner JR7-D is still a JR7-D, even if you make it look like a JR7-F. The serial number on the chassis still says JR7-D.

That's my point Bryan, is says JR7-D, but you have it configured as an F and yet you are leveling a D. What is the point of making the leveling system based upon variants if the variants dont actually mean anything. Why not modify the leveling system or modify the mechlabs so it is consistent..

Thanks for the reply