206 replies to this topic

[William Petersen]

Sprouticus, on 19 April 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

That's my point Bryan, is says JR7-D, but you have it configured as an F and yet you are leveling a D. What is the point of making the leveling system based upon variants if the variants dont actually mean anything. Why not modify the leveling system or modify the mechlabs so it is consistent..

Thanks for the reply

It's just too much overhead and worry over a non-issue. If someone wants to do that, well, it's their choice to 'cheat' the system, and there's really not much you can do to prevent it short of removing the MechLab entirely. If you *don't* want to play like that, awesome, you'll end up a more well-rounded player for it.

[MaddMaxx]

GargoyleKDR, on 19 April 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

No, but you turn a Swayback into an 2xPPC with 4xML (or better) carrying Mech within the limitations of the Hardpoint system. It has the crits, hardpoint weapon count, and available weight to do it.

The down-side is that nearly all the weapons are in the RT. That's a common limitation of all HB variants.

That might be useable. At the North Pole of a FROZEN Planet. lol

[MaddMaxx]

After looking at the "unused" Hard-points, it seems very reasonable the DEV could create variants for the Game that would not cross pollinate and provide the variant MIX needed for the Leveling system.

As for the ability or need to be able to recreate "every" canon variant, why? The players will only have to Level +/-3 Variants per Chassis so a proper mix of variants, and what they can be transformed into, should suffice.

[Volthorne]

I'm just going to jump in and say that any twin PPC's on a standard HBK-4G are going to over-heat it on every shot, unless you strip out a crap load of armor for heat-sinks, and then you're going to get nuked very easily (read: instant of enemy contact). The cons outweigh the pros. Is it possible? Sure as hell. Will anyone with an IQ above 75 (standard *****) do it? **** no.

[Solis Obscuri]

Didn't the Role Warfare devblog state we'd need to level up more than one variant of the same chassis to get to the higher-level efficiencies?

Also, aren't most 'mech efficiencies, like, 2.5% to a single stat? Everything I saw in that devblog indicated that 'mech efficiencies would give minor bonuses that would be nice to have, but not by any means a requisite to compete. The pilot skills looks more impressive to me, and those aren't affected by what chassis you're using, so I don't really see a valid concern here.

[Orzorn]

Solis Obscuri, on 19 April 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Didn't the Role Warfare devblog state we'd need to level up more than one variant of the same chassis to get to the higher-level efficiencies?

Also, aren't most 'mech efficiencies, like, 2.5% to a single stat? Everything I saw in that devblog indicated that 'mech efficiencies would give minor bonuses that would be nice to have, but not by any means a requisite to compete. The pilot skills looks more impressive to me, and those aren't affected by what chassis you're using, so I don't really see a valid concern here.

With Elite Variants factored in (which also answers you first question. Yes, we must level up multiple variants to get the higher level efficiencies), those efficiencies are raised to about 10% with (at least in the example given in the dev blog) all the variants leveled.

[MaddMaxx]

Volthorne, on 19 April 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

I'm just going to jump in and say that any twin PPC's on a standard HBK-4G are going to over-heat it on every shot, unless you strip out a crap load of armor for heat-sinks, and then you're going to get nuked very easily (read: instant of enemy contact). The cons outweigh the pros. Is it possible? Sure as hell. Will anyone with an IQ above 75 (standard *****) do it? **** no.

Try this Mech Builder. You might be surprised. Trading 1 weapon with a max range of 270m, for 2 weapons with a max range of 540m can have its own advantages.

http://remlab.source...e.net/remlab30/

[Solis Obscuri]

Orzorn, on 19 April 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

With Elite Variants factored in (which also answers you first question. Yes, we must level up multiple variants to get the higher level efficiencies), those efficiencies are raised to about 10% with (at least in the example given in the dev blog) all the variants leveled.

More like 3.5%, and that's dependent on a lot of leveling.



Also, Uziels suck, and they're too far ahead to be in timeline to be in the game at launch, anyway. I really don't see what the hell they have to do with the mechlab and leveling, or why I should be worried about Hunchbacks being converted into slow, half-assed imitations of Uziels with heat management issues.

Besides, customizing a HBK-4N by removing the two LRM-5s and two MLas in the right torso and replacing them with a single PPC would be a much more efficient option than trying to stuff two PPCs into a HBK-4G. Everyone knows that!

[autogyro]

People have got to stop attacking the 'replace AC/20 with PPC' argument. It is not relevant except as a point of example.

The point that is being made is that variants have no meaning if you can make most variants into other variants.

Well, my thoughts are below:

1) Who's to say we're getting variants which are almost identical to other variants? There are 3 variants, based on the above graph. I'm betting we won't get a Jenner JR7-F.

2) Different variants will have different hardpoints and different number of hardpoints, even if they are cross-convertible. There is a benefit in allowing the Swayback to mount the two PPCs in the more heavily armoured RT rather than each arm which could be taken out in 2 or 3 AC20 shots.

3) Why SHOULDN'T we be allowed to convert both the Swayback and the Hunchback into something similar to the Uziel per your example? Sure, you need to pilot 3 variants to unlock elite status, but it doesn't say you need to pilot the bone stock variant, nor is there any indication that you aren't allowed to pilot pretty much the same mech, if you want to spend the money and have your favourite custom variant. I don't recall, do we even know how we buy variants? Or are they all unlocked upon purchase of a battlemech chassis?

[Gigaton]

Volthorne, on 19 April 2012 - 02:45 PM, said:

I'm just going to jump in and say that any twin PPC's on a standard HBK-4G are going to over-heat it on every shot, unless you strip out a crap load of armor for heat-sinks, and then you're going to get nuked very easily (read: instant of enemy contact). The cons outweigh the pros. Is it possible? Sure as hell. Will anyone with an IQ above 75 (standard *****) do it? **** no.

IIRC, Hunchie with 2 PPC and 1 MG with ton of ammo with the default armour can mount 16 heat sinks. If there is no ballistic hardpoint you can switch the MG + ammo for SLAS + heat sink, which is heat neutral like the MG.

Assuming moving at full speed generates 2 extra heat (or thereabout), Awesome that shoots and moves at full speed nets 5 extra heat per 10 secs and this Hunchie would get 6. So bit hot yes, but it's not crippling.


As for the overall topic at hand: I think the OP has fair point, but ultimately I guess I agree with William Petersen. It's not that big of an issue. Mechlab could perhaps use additional restrictions based on current info, but I don't think conclusion on the matter is possible yet.

Edited by Gigaton, 19 April 2012 - 05:03 PM.

[Toothman]

You can't put PPCs on a ballistic hardpoint. You'd have to purchase the variant that had the energy hardpoints. You Can't make the stock into the variant. At least not the example you have given.

[Kartr]

Sprouticus, on 19 April 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

NOTE: This is one example, I am sure I could think of others, but try to get past the specifics and see the root issue the example highlights.

The Jenner-A has 1 LL.
The Jenner-D has 4 ML.
The Jenner-C has 3 ML and a C3 slave


They have the same equipment otherwise.

I dont like having my scout only have medium lasers, and I dont want to have to learn to pilot my Jenner-D with medium lasers

So I remove all 4 medium lasers & 1 HS
Add 1 Large Laser. . Now I have a quasi-Jenner-A. It doesnt matter that the F has 4 hardpoints, all I need is one for the LL.

Now I get mech XP of the Jenner-F while riding around in what is effectively a Jenner-A.

I make some money and Buy a Jenner-A. Now I level up the Jenner-A without having to learn any new tactics, effectively I am running the exact same mech for both variant level ups.

Not I level up again and buy a Jenner-C.
I remove the Medium lasers and C3 along with 1 HS
I put in a LL and poof I have my favorite Jenner-A again.

I level up that variant and now I get elite 1 for the Jenner

Rinse and repeat for Elite 2 (doesnt even cost me any money.)


Does this highlight how customization can do an end around of the leveling system the way it is setup right now? It is a large flaw in the system IMO, one which the Dev's need to fix. How they fix it is a matter of discussion of course. But to pretend the flaw does not exist is just silly.

I don't really see how this is a problem. I want to level a Jenner, I don't like 4MLas so I get a LLas why is that a problem? I have to buy each variant and customize each one to get it how I like, I can't just use a single chassis change weapons and save money leveling. So where is the problem?

It'd be different if I could take a stock Awesome and turn it into a missile boat, or drop the PPCs for AC/s and make it a Atlas clone. We can't do that however so there's no real problem as far as I can see. The crazier people get and the further their modifications are from baseline the more problems they're going to run into balancing heat, armor, speed and firepower. To me it sounds like a fairly self correcting system and this fear is more of a "I don't want a 'Mechlab period, people should play what they're given and be happy!" kind of mentality.

GargoyleKDR, on 19 April 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

No, but you turn a Swayback into an 2xPPC with 4xML (or better) carrying Mech within the limitations of the Hardpoint system. It has the crits, hardpoint weapon count, and available weight to do it.

The down-side is that nearly all the weapons are in the RT. That's a common limitiation of all HB variants.

How can you do that? One PPC in each arm 4 in the torso? That's more tonnage then the stock Hunchback with an AC/20 uses. That means you're either stripping armor buying an expensive endosteel or XL upgrade or maybe lowering the top speed. Not to mention you're going to loose the extra HS the Swayback has to help dissipate the extra heat from the 6 extra ML and you're going to be ramping up the heat even more. You'll be shutting down so often as to be nearly useless.

If that's what you want to do though I don't see the problem, its going to cost you a ton of Cbills to do and you're going to run into some pretty hefty drawbacks.

[Gigaton]

Toothman, on 19 April 2012 - 05:01 PM, said:

You can't put PPCs on a ballistic hardpoint. You'd have to purchase the variant that had the energy hardpoints. You Can't make the stock into the variant. At least not the example you have given.

It's been stated many times in this thread, the PPCs would go in the arms and replace the 2 medium lasers. Both arms have 8 free critical slots, a PPC takes 3. Hunchback has 21.5 tons available for weapons, so using one example I posted: 2x PPC (14t) + SLAS (0.5t) + 7 single heat sinks (7 tons) = 21.5 tons.

Current word on 'mechlab is that hardpoint can hold weapon of any size as long as it could be mounted as per TT counstruction rules. OP was trying to argue for more restriction on hardpoints.

[MagnusEffect]

Doom, the OP says. DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMM

My point is, I think judging by how attuned the devs are to the source material, I think we can trust them to work this out. Also, it is waaay too early... this is all wild speculation.

I'm not saying this thread is pointless, just saying I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it just yet

Edited by MagnusEffect, 19 April 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Gigaton]

MagnusEffect, on 19 April 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Doom, the OP says. DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMM

He said doom somewhere? Anyway, can people stop with this particular pointless argument (there seem to be few people doing this on every page of this thread)? Sprouticus made a valid argument based on the information we have available.

You are free to disagree with him or argue against him, but telling him he shouldn't have voiced his concern or accusing him of being a doomsayer is pointless.

Edited by Gigaton, 19 April 2012 - 05:30 PM.

[MagnusEffect]

Gigaton, on 19 April 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

He said doom somewhere? Anyway, can people stop with this particular pointless argument (there seem to be few people doing this on every page of this thread)? Sprouticus raised a valid argument based on the information we have available.

You are free to disagree with him or argue against him, but telling him he shouldn't have voiced his concern or accusing him of being a doomsayer is pointless.

Um.. I didn't say that nor was I arguing that, but you are free to disagree.

Also, sarcasm...

Edited by MagnusEffect, 19 April 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[rollermint]

I think its already been voiced a number of times, even by a dev that the most obvious solution is to only include variants that significantly differ from each other so as to disallow unintended imitation or mirroring.

That said, the devs could also tweak or re-balanced variants that are too similar to each other. Or they could also include bonuses down the specific variant skill tree so even though you can customise Variant B to somehow mimic Variant A, it won't perform not even nearly as well as the original Variant A with its skill tree maximised.

I'm not sure what else is there to fret about...You are really jumping the gun by claiming it to be useless when we have so limited info...

[EDMW CSN]

Make it simple. A player buys a mech or its variants.
Only stock variants can get full mech Xp.

If you wish to min max your own insane chassis, you can do so BUT you gain 50% of the mech gain exp.
So yes it will keep players playing stock for a long time, but still allow them to use their pimp loadouts for hard battles.

Alternatively players who use stock get a carrot and gain mech xp faster instead. Like 30% to 50% more exp ?

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 19 April 2012 - 08:39 PM.

[LordDeathStrike]

you cant take the ac 20 out of a hunch and put in 2 ppcs. your might not even be able to put 2 ppcs in the swayback (ppc hardpoints may not be compatible with laser points, different weapon type)

[Halfinax]

OP I see and understand your point, but there are too many unknowns for us getting super concerned about it. Those I see right of the bat:

A.Your variant x->y argument could actually be intentional. Many IS 'Mechs have more than a half dozen variants so if the devs pick 3 that can't be converted to one another, but could be converted to similar, but not included, variants then I actually see this as a good thing (I am against any customization at all for the record).

B. We have no idea what it will cost,if anything, to customize a base variant to your liking, but assuming it is in I would imagine it's not going to be cheap considering they are referencing the original TT rules where they can logically be applied to a real time environment, and still be fun (like costs),

C. This is all WIP, and the devs don't seem to be too shy about stating that all of this may change as testing gets underway, and that thanks to the F2P model they can actually change things after launch as well if things aren't working as intended.

Basically I see this all as a moot issue until we know/see more about those points before I can make a decision. Initially I groaned when I realized we were going to be allowed to customize IS 'Mechs in the first place, but I've developed a wait and see aproach, and am cautiously optimistic. The PGI guys seem to have their finger on the pulse of what will please the old hats and the new comers along with everyone in-between.

This is an interesting discussion.