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How the mechlab will break leveling


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#161 Nik Van Rhijn

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 04:02 AM

View PostIceSerpent, on 20 April 2012 - 09:53 PM, said:


Nik, do we know for a fact that there will be enough free crits there (I didn't follow the forums for about a week)? I sort of assumed that energy hard point designed for a single ML will not have enough crits to fit a PPC. I.e. number of crits is governed by the actual hardpoint instead of "location X always has N crits in it".

Ice, if they are going off TT then there are plenty of crit spaces. Most "Level 1" mech designs have plenty of empty spaces with the major limiting factor being weight. It's only when you start using Endo Steel or Ferro Fibrous and XL engines all of which eat up crits do you have space problems.

#162 Gigaton

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 04:23 AM

View PostBarHaid, on 20 April 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

The general inference is that hard points are one "point" per weapon and weapon size isn't a factor, but ths hasn't been explicitly confirmed.


It has been, actually:

View PostInnerSphereNews, on 18 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

[DAVID] Hardpoints will limit the number of weapons that can be placed in a location on the ’Mech. The number of slots those weapons can occupy is not predefined (outside of the maximum number of slots in the location). So let’s say that I’m allowed 2 energy weapons in my right arm. I currently have 2 Medium Lasers which occupy 1 slot each. I would still be allowed to put in 2 Large Lasers, which occupy 2 slots each.


All is subject to change, naturally.

Edited by Gigaton, 21 April 2012 - 04:25 AM.


#163 MaddMaxx

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 04:57 AM

View PostLightfoot, on 20 April 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:


Well, then there is nothing to limit boating in the hardpoint system. So I don't think it's going to work that way since the ability to load a PPC into a Medium Laser slot negates the purpose or need for hardpoints.

Perhaps they mean you could load several Medium Lasers into a large energy slot or one PPC, etc.


Actually the HardPoint system IS the answer to Boating. If a chassis/variants contains only 1 or 2 HardPoints in each of the known weapon categories (Energy, Ballistics, Missile) and you can only place the same weapon type in any Slot, regardless of size, how does one BOAT a Single weapon type. (the definition of Boating right?)

#164 IceSerpent

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 09:38 AM

View PostNik Van Rhijn, on 21 April 2012 - 04:02 AM, said:

Ice, if they are going off TT then there are plenty of crit spaces. Most "Level 1" mech designs have plenty of empty spaces with the major limiting factor being weight. It's only when you start using Endo Steel or Ferro Fibrous and XL engines all of which eat up crits do you have space problems.


Yes, but the question is how close to TT is it going to be? This whole issue is easily controlled by tweaking the max. number of slots/crits in the location. While in TT you always have N crits in a given location to play with, MWO can simply use a system where an Awesome has a single energy hardpoint with 3 crits in the PPC arm, but has no open crits at all in the other arm.

#165 GrizzlyViking

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:44 AM

Until we actually play the game it is unwise to speculate such things as these.

#166 Azantia

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:51 AM

Lest we not forget gentlemen....different mechs have different torso twist ranges, torso twist speed, acceleration, turning speed/radius, different hit boxes / silhouettes, may or may not have jump jets available by different "variants" (See TROs).

Along with all that the way the leveling works : by having all the variants "maxed" you get additional bonuses, so regardless if you can make two variants "the same" your min/max'ers will want to grind them all.

my 2 cents. Back to your regularly scheduled mayhem.

#167 Azantia

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 10:54 AM

View PostGigaton, on 21 April 2012 - 04:23 AM, said:


It has been, actually:



All is subject to change, naturally.


Okay to close this subject once and for all, for all those who have not played tabletop (the rules they are using for mech construction)
I give you the following:

A mech is considered to have a "Hardpoint" for every weapon of a given type it possesses. Each mech still must follow canon rules for tonnage and critical space, however you will not be able to mount 15 medium lasers.

A mech has 12 "critical" spaces in the Arms, and Torsos (left, center, right), and 6 in the head and each leg, but some of these "critical" slots are filled with things that cannot be moved based on the chassis.

Arms all have Shoulder actuators, others may have upper arm, lower arm and hand actuators all which take up one "critical" slot. The centurion for example has a gun on its right arm, so it does not possess a "hand" actuator, but has a hand on the left, therefore it possesses the "hand" actuator.
So in the centurion, the left arm has Shoulder, Upper Arm, Lower Arm actuators (3 slots) and 9 free slots for weapons and equipment, where its right arm has shoulder, upper arm, lower arm and hand actuators (4 slots) and 8 free slots for weapons and equipment

In all mechs center torsos there are only 2 "free" slots out of the 12, because the engine takes up 6 slots and the gyro takes up 4. If you use a Light or an extra-light engine (which lowers the weight of the engine by 25 and 50%respectively) it will also take up 2 critical slots if light and 3 critical slots if extra-light in the right and left torso.

The right and left torso's have 12 free slots, unless you use a light or extra light engine

Legs have only 2 "free" slots each due to Hip, upper leg, lower leg and foot actuators

The head only has 1 "free" slot due to the presence of the cockpit, life support and sensors, which take up a total of 5 slots.

So using the Centurion as an example lets take a look

Example :

The Centurion has :
2 Medium Lasers (1 Ton each, 1 Critical Slot Each) In Center Torso
1 AC 10 (12 Tons, 7 Crits) In Right Arm
1 LRM 10 (5 Tons, 2 Crits) in Left Torso

So it has
2 Energy Hardpoints
1 Ballistic Hardpoint
1 Missile Hardpoint

This would matter in the above because although the Centurion has 2 energy hardpoints, you only have 2 critical spaces to play with, so you could remove 2 medium lasers to replace them with a Large Laser, which is 5 tons and 2 crits. you couldnt place another energy weapon because you have no more "critical" spaces left in the center torso. Likewise the Large Laser weights 3 more tons than the 2 medium lasers, so you would have to find that weight.

Now if you can place weapons where-ever you would like on the mech, but are limited to hardpoint restrictions, its not as bad because I can have a max of 2 energy weapons on the centurion, but can move them to say...the right torso, where I have 12 free critical slots, and could mount, say a PPC, or 2 Large Lasers. But as I understand it, you cannot, the hardpoint is "hard-slotted" to the location of each weapon in the base variant.

Again you must satisfy tonnage and critical space requirements and are limited in how many of each type of weapon you can mount. This is what they are calling "Hardpoints"

The weapons MUST stay in the same location on the mech, in which weapons placed in the head or center torsos become a problem as they generally cannot be replaced due to the lack of "critical" space.

Just as a second example to make sure you guys understand the hardpoint system :

The Jenner JR7-D mech has 4 Medium lasers and 1 SRM 4

so it has 4 Energy Hardpoints and 1 Missile Hardpoint, but those weapons only weigh 6 Tons....so while you have 4 Energy hardpoints, you dont have enough tonnage if you strip all the weapons to even mount a single PPC (7 tons 3 crits). If you freed up another Ton, by removing armor, heat sinks, downgrading the engine etc, the you could mount a single PPC, as long as you had 3 critical slots available in the location of one of the energy "hardpoints"

Let me know if you guys have questions and I will answer to the best of my ability....this is very interesting because it prevents "boating" which is the loading up of one specific type of weapon, mainly is used to load up on lots of LRMs, PPCs, medium lasers or Large Lasers....

Basically think of the Awesome mech, it is a "PPC Boat"...where as the Catapult is a "Missile Boat"

I took this from my post from our unit forums, so ignore the part about answering questions....

Edited by Azantia, 21 April 2012 - 11:00 AM.


#168 Nik Van Rhijn

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:01 AM

The question was about the Hunchies arm Energy hardpoints. The way they explained things was that what you put in there was dependant on hving weight and crits free. At present it has an ML, but the system as explained does not limit it to one crit. The arm has 8 crits "free" without the ML so, assuming you free up weight elsewhere, you can fit lhe largest energy weapon ie PPC which only takes up 3 crits. We were asking that hardpoints should have a crit limitation so that the standard Hunchback remained a ballistic mech, rather than being transformed into a LL or PPC mech (can't call it a boat with only 2 weapons :D). I wouldn't argue if people wanted to replace the AC20 with a Gauss Rifle as although it completely changes the attack profile, it remains a ballistic mech.
The 4J which uses 2 LRM mounts can't be turned into an SRM "boat" because it only has 2 missile hardpoints. Because it has 3 extra ML's it does give you 5 energy hardpoints.
The 4P is a classic energy "boat" with 8MLs.
At the moment, the system is that hardpoints are limited as to type but not size and can only hold one weapon.

With regard to the Awesome, as it doesn't have a hardpoint in the other arm it is irrelevant, as far as weapons are concerned, how many free crits it has.

#169 Azantia

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:15 AM

They are limited by size : you have to satisfy tonnage, critical space and hardpoint requirements. I think its a good system, I have played with it and tried to look at customizing several variants.

I dont think you have to worry about the base Hunchback being a non-ballistic mech, because if someone wants to have an energy boat version, they get more options with the Swayback Hunchie.

#170 Dream Seaker

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:27 AM

i feel like, i just read a theory on relativity or something. :S i'm not trying to be rude, but its just all going over my head, could someone please clarify, or break down, or point me to somewhere where i can learn and properly participate in this discussion? please and thankyou :D

Edited by Dream Seaker, 21 April 2012 - 11:28 AM.


#171 Shredhead

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 11:50 AM

View PostDream Seaker, on 21 April 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

i feel like, i just read a theory on relativity or something. :S i'm not trying to be rude, but its just all going over my head, could someone please clarify, or break down, or point me to somewhere where i can learn and properly participate in this discussion? please and thankyou :D

Of course. Visit the toilet and your freezer to do what's to be done and fetch something to eat and drink. Make yourself comfortable afterwards and visit http://mwomercs.com/...evelopers-blog/ There you read Dev Blogs 1-6 and the Dev Blog Q&A 1-6. This will take some hours, but after reading this, you'll be able to follow tech specific discussions like this. For background and fluff and Battletech history there is http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ as a good read (and for clarification of technical terms).
Welcome to the dark side!
Aunt Edit(h): Fixed a link

Edited by Shredhead, 21 April 2012 - 12:04 PM.


#172 jjuurriijj

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:05 PM

Sigh, this is what devs get for trying to make a game with freedom and options... This is why we can't have nice things...

#173 IceSerpent

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:34 PM

View Postjjuurriijj, on 21 April 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Sigh, this is what devs get for trying to make a game with freedom and options... This is why we can't have nice things...


We can't have too much "freedom and options" because people will abuse that in more ways than you can imagine, just like they've done in the past. Pretty much all mechlab suggestions/discussions go along the lines of "this particular feature was abused in MW2/MW3/MW4, so we need to do something to prevent the same kind of abuse in MWO".

#174 Riptor

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 02:04 PM

If you want to put PPCs into your hunchies arms be my guest...

Those arms have **** poor armor anyways and it would make it so easy to render the mech useless and ignorable in just a couple of hits. Even a Catapul can stay dangerous due to its 4 meds even if you rip off the obvious targets that are its missle launchers.

The arms are most often the first thing to go since people tend to twist their torsos so that incomming fire does not hit the center torso.

#175 Azantia

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 03:52 PM

Exactly. The swayback is a better option for Double PPCs as they are protected in the torso

Edited by Azantia, 21 April 2012 - 03:53 PM.


#176 Nik Van Rhijn

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 05:24 PM

But you might get better/faster targeting in the arms - that would be determined by playing the game of course.

#177 Rejarial Galatan

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 05:49 PM

Well, honestly. As I have not been at friends and family beta and seen how things are working right now, nor do we have access to open beta to see for ourselves, I for one am going to stop speculating on the mechlab, and besides in a diff thread the devs basically said shut up and wait with out actually saying it. We will not know for certainty until its in our hands.

#178 Dream Seaker

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Posted 21 April 2012 - 08:37 PM

View PostShredhead, on 21 April 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

Of course. Visit the toilet and your freezer to do what's to be done and fetch something to eat and drink. Make yourself comfortable afterwards and visit http://mwomercs.com/...evelopers-blog/ There you read Dev Blogs 1-6 and the Dev Blog Q&A 1-6. This will take some hours, but after reading this, you'll be able to follow tech specific discussions like this. For background and fluff and Battletech history there is http://www.sarna.net/wiki/ as a good read (and for clarification of technical terms).
Welcome to the dark side!
Aunt Edit(h): Fixed a link

thank you very much, good sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar :rolleyes:

#179 cardinal vice

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:01 PM

I haven't seen any mention of role warfare... As an integral piece of player development and satisfaction, I think the mech-lab 'breaking' pilot leveling is not only a good thing, but it is necessary.

Ok, so lets say you choose a role that you enjoy and a mech that it compliments. As it turns out, you can hold your own in that position and have a fun time accomplishing your missions. Naturally, you would work towards maximizing your abilities in that mech, which requires spending time in the variants. In order to continue playing the game that you like, it will require that the variants are modified in such a way as to support your chosen style.

If the variant can not be customized enough to support the chosen role warfare, the player will get stuck in a phase where they have to grind pilot levels in a format they don't enjoy.

Let's say you are a brawler and loving it, but now to reach elite status in your chariot, you have to play a long range support variant for a number of levels and you just aren't that good...
I can't imagine the development forcing a different role on players because of chassis skills.

I'll gladly help the mech-lab break, dismember and trash the leveling system to keep it fun and engaging.

#180 Rejarial Galatan

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:08 PM

Why would they force a new role on you because you have say 1000 kills in your jenner? <felt like givin a lil love to the recons> Just dumb. I think that is more myth than anything else, seeing as Cardinal Vice is the only person ive seen in the thread make mention of that whole new role cuz too many kills...





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