206 replies to this topic

[Magnificent Bastard]

If MWO was based on a leveling system like other games OP might have a point. But I prefer to look at it from the opposite perspective; mechlab existed first and pilot exp/leveling is an extra game mechanic on top of it.

[MaddMaxx]

cardinal vice, on 23 April 2012 - 08:01 PM, said:

I haven't seen any mention of role warfare... As an integral piece of player development and satisfaction, I think the mech-lab 'breaking' pilot leveling is not only a good thing, but it is necessary.

Ok, so lets say you choose a role that you enjoy and a mech that it compliments. As it turns out, you can hold your own in that position and have a fun time accomplishing your missions. Naturally, you would work towards maximizing your abilities in that mech, which requires spending time in the variants. In order to continue playing the game that you like, it will require that the variants are modified in such a way as to support your chosen style.

If the variant can not be customized enough to support the chosen role warfare, the player will get stuck in a phase where they have to grind pilot levels in a format they don't enjoy.

Let's say you are a brawler and loving it, but now to reach elite status in your chariot, you have to play a long range support variant for a number of levels and you just aren't that good...
I can't imagine the development forcing a different role on players because of chassis skills.

I'll gladly help the mech-lab break, dismember and trash the leveling system to keep it fun and engaging.

A valid point and it will be interesting how the DEV deal with such a circumstance as it will obviously arise a LOT. Perhaps a By-Pass could be implemented that would allow a Pilot to pass on the next variant (if it can't be spec'd right) and still gain Mech XP and apply it towards the Elite status.

Hmmm. Interesting indeed.

[Rejarial Galatan]

I think we can honestly think of the Mechlab in the same way we think of tweaking characters on any good old fashioned MMORPG or even TT. you get new gear, you swap out the old, your better off for it. Same in the mech lab. get new gear, replace old.

[John Clavell]

OP. The XP levelling system effects your pilot and individual mechs, In the case of the mechs it effects base stats. So it has little to do with the Mechlab. Many of the stat increases come to aspects of the mech you cannot directly edit in the mechlab (example being say torso twist rate). Furthermore the Hardpoint system is there to stop you doing stuff like 'taking out the AC20 and stuffing 2 PPC's in there'.

So I don't see the point of what your trying to say. If it is what comes over in face value then you need to go re-read how the XP and Mechlab have been proposed to function because you seem totally incorrect in your assumptions.

Edited by John Clavell, 24 May 2012 - 11:23 PM.

[Alfred VonGunn]

I don't see a problem.. I for one hope we are not required to actually drive all teh variants. Just spend xp on them to get the level up to Elitie for the bonuses. Because it makes no sense to have to drive a mech you hate to level up... I have no issue with the spending of xp to get the extra bonuses.. Thats the part of training.. But wasting C-bills to by\uy mechs you don;t want and will never use is silly

[That Guy]

old thread

[combatplayer]

i personally prefer customization way over leveling.

[FrostPaw]

I thought variants were unlocked via the xp system from the primary stock mech. i.e. you have to unlock them first. There is no mention that earning the xp to unlock them means we have to buy a second duplicate mech for the change in hardpoints. We could just swap the hardpoint configuration on the existing mech.

[Adrienne Vorton]

http://www.turutupa....ck02_resize.jpg
http://www.jadefalco.../Uzielslots.jpg

taking this pics from mw4, you cant make an uziel out of a hunchie...

Edited by Adrienne Vorton, 26 May 2012 - 02:55 AM.

[Gauge]

FrostPaw, on 26 May 2012 - 02:29 AM, said:

I thought variants were unlocked via the xp system from the primary stock mech. i.e. you have to unlock them first. There is no mention that earning the xp to unlock them means we have to buy a second duplicate mech for the change in hardpoints. We could just swap the hardpoint configuration on the existing mech.

The Role Warfare devblog mentions that you will need to gain experience up to a certain level with each varient to unlock the Elite bonuses, but it doesn't mention using XP to get variants. In addition, if you watch the MechLab Developer Breakdown, at around 0:50, when a chassis is being bought, two different Hunchback variants are there in the store with different prices. Both these points lead me to believe that variants are bought, not gained via XP.

As for OP's ideas and comments, I don't know. On the one hand, I feel like if you really want to modify mechs to behave a lot like each other, that's your prerogative. The hardpoints do seem to be pretty flexible as of right now, but that may change in the future. What we've seen so far may be set up as it is because not all the variants are in the beta yet.

Long story short, I don't want to rain on people's parade if they want to used the same design over and over again on different chassis and variants.

[Eternal Pink]

Sprouticus, on 19 April 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

This is pulled from another mechlab thread. I wanted to talk about what the mechlab will mean to the MWO leveling system, and how it will IMO break it or make it absurdly meaningless.



But the problem is that variants can be customized, the XP/leveling system gets borked.

As a review, the training system in MWO will rely upon training in each variant of each mech to open up bonuses for that mech and variant and to get pilot points for modules.


Now, let's say the Awesome has the 8Q, 8R and 8T. You can take an 8T and turn it into an 8R. Which means from a training standpoint you are using the EXACT same mech to 'train up' two different variants.

What is the problem with that you ask? It circumvents the entire idea of leveling variants to achieve extra pilot points and modules. They might as well just have 1 leveling tree per mech and call it a day.

You could make it even more extreme. Take a stock Hunchie, take out the AC20 and put in 2 PPC's. Now you are leveling a Hunchie, but it is NOT a Hunchie, it is an Uziel with a different profile.

I want the variants to mean something, and I want the leveling system to mean something. With the extreme level of customization allowed currently, the leveling system becomes meaningless. If they Devs want this level of customization, Im ok with it (not happy, but ok).

But in that case they should revise the leveling system to account for it and at a minimum remove variants as a factor in leveling.

More and more I am leaning toward Zorak's suggestions in the thread below. If you have not read this thread, it is worth the time.

http://mwomercs.com/...bt-build-rules/

In particular I think each hardpoint should have a MAXIMUM size for weapons (if you had a ML in the arm, it can only be replaced with a ML or SL. If you have a LL it can be replaced with LL, ML, SL, and if you have a PPC it can be replace with anything). This will limit customization some, but it will also make variants very important. And make leveling a variant MEAN something. It may also cause some variants to be shelved, but that is a topic for discussion in another thread.


What does everyone think about this? Do you care about the leveling system? Should it matter that you are cheating it by using custom mech which completely re-purpose a mech and still allows you to level the mech?

Unless you've had access to the game before closed beta (which i doubt and even then it would have been in a small enviroment so not true to actual game play) i think deciding something will break the game before even playing the game is foolish.

The well known phrase comes to mind "Don't judge a book by its cover" although not totally accurate since we've not even seen the cover yet.

As a slight digression - why do people make these threads predicting doom and gloom before the game is even playable? seems every new game has someone doing it

[Gremlich Johns]

Eternal Pink, on 26 May 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

As a slight digression - why do people make these threads predicting doom and gloom before the game is even playable? seems every new game has someone doing it

Because some have this overwhelming need to be noticed. I could care less about leveling issues. Put me in a mech I can use and customize within reason and let me drop into a server with my mates to play a game we have all waited for. Anything else is didactic flagellation serving only to upset and provoke.

[Toothman]

Sprouticus, on 19 April 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

This is pulled from another mechlab thread. I wanted to talk about what the mechlab will mean to the MWO leveling system, and how it will IMO break it or make it absurdly meaningless.



But the problem is that variants can be customized, the XP/leveling system gets borked.

As a review, the training system in MWO will rely upon training in each variant of each mech to open up bonuses for that mech and variant and to get pilot points for modules.


Now, let's say the Awesome has the 8Q, 8R and 8T. You can take an 8T and turn it into an 8R. Which means from a training standpoint you are using the EXACT same mech to 'train up' two different variants.

What is the problem with that you ask? It circumvents the entire idea of leveling variants to achieve extra pilot points and modules. They might as well just have 1 leveling tree per mech and call it a day.

You could make it even more extreme. Take a stock Hunchie, take out the AC20 and put in 2 PPC's. Now you are leveling a Hunchie, but it is NOT a Hunchie, it is an Uziel with a different profile.

I want the variants to mean something, and I want the leveling system to mean something. With the extreme level of customization allowed currently, the leveling system becomes meaningless. If they Devs want this level of customization, Im ok with it (not happy, but ok).

But in that case they should revise the leveling system to account for it and at a minimum remove variants as a factor in leveling.

More and more I am leaning toward Zorak's suggestions in the thread below. If you have not read this thread, it is worth the time.

http://mwomercs.com/...bt-build-rules/

In particular I think each hardpoint should have a MAXIMUM size for weapons (if you had a ML in the arm, it can only be replaced with a ML or SL. If you have a LL it can be replaced with LL, ML, SL, and if you have a PPC it can be replace with anything). This will limit customization some, but it will also make variants very important. And make leveling a variant MEAN something. It may also cause some variants to be shelved, but that is a topic for discussion in another thread.


What does everyone think about this? Do you care about the leveling system? Should it matter that you are cheating it by using custom mech which completely re-purpose a mech and still allows you to level the mech?

Since you've already played the game please tell us where and what types and the number of hardpoints in each location for each variant so we can see how they can be cloned. It is important because the lack of a professional development team and no testing procedure could lead to unusual results.
Oh wait...................

[Jaxwen]

FaustianBargain, on 19 April 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

I am also very concerned that a system I have only read about second hand in a game I have never played will ruin another system I have only read about second hand. [/sarcasm]

Can we all just wait for beta before calling the game broken? Or at least a substantial video with commentary?

One Mechwarrior's opinion:
Because, if it is a system the majority of fans feel is a "broken" approach, wouldn't it be better to address BEFORE the devs push too far down one road and have to backtrack and fix the game later in a major patch? In hard points, we are talking about extreme limitations on mech design in a game system that the fanbase tend to enjoy being creative and customizing. The chances of you having a unique configuration is nil, the chances of you having a rare configuration is unlikely. What we are talking about is that for the gamers that take performance seriously, there will only be a handful of commonly used variants of mechs in the battlefield. Everything else will be subpar and nostalgic in it's use. All those players with decades of history in customization and development that COULD have put the time/c-bills/real money into recreating various favorite customized mechs, will not have that feature in a game that is supposed to be the "premium" (Per Russ) MW game.

Mechwarrior Jaxwen, Pilot of Ragnarok, Fire Support Lance Rota, 2nd Company

[Xandre Blackheart]

premature especulation.

[Solkar]

The solution is SO simple...

Beta testers do their job: Try to break/abuse the system and report on the results... and report well, with thorough testing, and usable understandable feedback.

If beta testers find ways to abuse the leveling/mechlab system (and report it, well) then the developers can fix it... If beta testers find ways to break the game (and report it, well) then the developers can fix it... And of course, if beta testers find basic bugs (and report them, well) the developers can fix them.

There are months of beta testing remaining, so like they say on a famous hitch hiking guide: DON'T PANIC.

Never decide something is broken before it is done being designed.

[phelancracken]

Mechlab also isn't completely finished on what weapons uses HOW many hard points. Do I know how it's going to work? No, but I do know from what I have seen it's following the tonnage and crits of CBT weapons at that time. I could change by the release of the game. Or not. The hardpoints is going to be a killer for some if it stays the way it is.

I remember from another example the 4G Hunchback swapping out the AC/20 already had 2 energy hardpoints being used. By the currently installed lasers. 2 MLs and 1 SL. The mech only had 3 total energy hardpoints. So, unless the swayback has more energy hardpoints or the PPCs don't use more than .5 energy hardpoint per weapon, this example of using Hunchie to create an Uziel is a non issue. Not to mention, ouchie on heat!!

[Fastred]

I don't see the problem perhaps once we get our hands on the mech I will see it differently. I actually feel that having to train varients is abit of a stretch but I guess you could argue the redistribution of weight changes the handling characteristics. Then again your supposed to have a machine with a gyro and dedicated computers assisting your movement so asside from a game leveling mechanic why are we training variants at all a Jenner is a Jenner. Different chassis I understand but I would think training individaul systems would make more sense for being able to effectively use a varient.

Anyway abit late for a major design change at this point.

[Xantars]

I think what the ment is you have to use each chasie with its hard points and level that mech up using the hard points on that varient

[KageRyuu]

People need to stop making so many assumptions, and entirely silly or fearful assumptions at that.

For a fact we know that the Devs are taking a lot of inspiration from the Table Top, while also adopting the Hard Point system from MW4 (unlike MW4 thankfully a weapon still takes up critical space). I also remember them saying that they wouldn't be making all variants only those that couldn't already be made with modifications to other variants, so clearly the variants they offer us will have different hard points. Lastly, don't worry about what someone is doing to their mech, the TT has a balancing feature that is based on the make up of the mech, it's called Battle Value. Now if the Devs are taking a lot of inspiration from the TT like they said they are, then hopefully they'll realize the easiest way to ensure enjoyment of the game by all is to use the BV system so that teams of equal BV can pit their skills and not just their mechs against one another.

Additionally, there is only one variant of the Hunchback that has jump jets, and it is not currently available in the time line, so given what they said about mechs having jump jets, that being "only mechs with at least one variant that has jump jets will have access to jump jets" paraphrased of course, one comes to the conclusion that until that mech would normally come out (3058, or 9 years from now, 3049) the Hunchback as well as any other mech who doesn't currently have a variant with JJ will not have JJ available for modification.

Edited by KageRyuu, 16 June 2012 - 10:38 PM.