101 replies to this topic

[WarMonkey14]

was not overnerfed. in fact, best implemented version of LRMs in beta so far

THANK YOU PGI

i'm praying you people dont end up getting them buffed again. cuz whether you like it or not, it will break the game again.

[justin xiang]

Jun Watarase, on 07 November 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

Considering that LRMs were made broken by artemis, and they are not just nerfing artemis....i think there's a very high chance we are going to go back to the old days of "mech stands in the open, takes 2 tons of LRM ammo to kill him" and everyone using fast mechs with med/small lasers.

For reference, 2 LRM-15s weigh 14 tons and 4 tons of ammo (the bare minimum needed to sustain it for a match) weigh 4 tons. 1 med laser weighs 1 ton.

I'm cool with skilled players who have to move getting kills vs folks standing still behind a building raining death.

[Crazycajun]

WarMonkey14, on 08 November 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

was not overnerfed. in fact, best implemented version of LRMs in beta so far

THANK YOU PGI

i'm praying you people dont end up getting them buffed again. cuz whether you like it or not, it will break the game again.

time to implement a dislike button for some folks

[Gristle]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 08 November 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

yeee u can destroy one mech when u fire up all your ammo...how great.With dual GR K2 u can kill mech in 4 sec for 2 ammo at almost 2k range...need smthing more to say?

Soooo..an LRM build should be able to kill a mech in 4 sec too? gotcha.

[Boris The Spider]

My feeling on this is that the LRMs definatley took an over the top nerf, and I say this not as a boater but as a scout and a medium brawler pilot. The inital Antermis release values were definatley OP, but with the reduced cockpit shake and the other changes to LRMS they have took a real hit.

Last night playing forest colony in my HBK, I made a massive mistake, broke cover away from my groups AMS sheild with over 100m of open ground between me and the nearest cover. I looked towards the enemy line and saw 3-4 missile boats open up on me, at this point I made peace with my god and informed my squad that I was dead..... but the LRMs pinged harmlessley off my HBKs armour, I managed to do a 180, took another 2 volleys and got back into the squads AMS sheild. We then proceeded back up the map and obliterated the LRM boats without any hastle.

From the POV of a scout, LRM's are barley worth scouting for now, I am far better off using light mechs to kill other light mechs rather than engaging in role warfare and painting targets for the LRM boats. With the 4 man max group size I can no longer comunicate with half the teams LRM boats, first nerf, then with the reduced cockpit shake, it is far easier for the tagged mech to fight back at me, second nerf. And the LRM's are doing so little damage that the tagged mech is worth just ignoring them and instead focusing on the far more dangerous scout mech... 3rd nerf. So, not only have LRM's taken a nerf, teamwork has.

Even with the pre-patch values I wasn't having that much difficulty with the LRMS though, yeah they were a bit OP, but with correct use of cover and ensuring that you knock the scout mechs out quickly, I was able to avoid most volleys completley. I would definatley scale them back up somehow, perhaps damage and leave the spread and tracking as is to give the lights a bit of a break.

[Jun Watarase]

2 tons of LRM artemis ammo on a CPLT-K2 in the open only brings it down to 80%. This is how terrible LRMs are now.

Back to med laser and gauss boating.

[Khobai]

Quote

Requiring one piece of gear to make another piece effective is bad design. Non-Artemis LRMs need to be effective too, or they need to take out the option to take LRMs w/o Artemis.

Exactly. LRMs need to be useful without Artemis. With Artemis they should be a bit over the top. But ECM should cancel out Artemis. That would be a balanced game.

[Umbra8]

I think the changes were necessary with the exception of the damage nerf. If they just changed the trajectory from the broken 90 degrees and made Artemis line of sight like it should be I think that would have resolved the issue. Right now LRM's are pretty weaksauce. If you don't have the threat of focused LRM's to make open territory a risk then it removes some of the tactical play involved in use of cover or screening. Only have to worry about gauss or PPC's now in open territory and fast scout classes are much better suited to dodge those attacks in any case.

Edited by Umbra8, 09 November 2012 - 01:07 AM.

[SteelPaladin]

Khobai, on 09 November 2012 - 12:55 AM, said:

Exactly. LRMs need to be useful without Artemis. With Artemis they should be a bit over the top. But ECM should cancel out Artemis. That would be a balanced game.

Artemis shouldn't be affecting indirect fire, so any bonuses it gives would be offset by also giving everyone else what they want, LRM mechs out in the open rather than lobbing volleys from behind cover. No idea who at PGI thought giving a mech the ability to self-buff indirect fire wasn't going to cause balance problems.

[Talos Valcoran]

I am so happy to see, that all the n Bs that jumped on the easymodetrain now have serious problems....so nice. I have seen what a very good pilot with artemis can do after the hotfix, and it works as intended.

Ok, he now does 900ish dmg instead of 1200(CAT-C1), but well, it seems ok to him. Now LRMs with or without Artemis are back to the role they should fit... SUPPORT !!!

[VXJaeger]

I figured that combination LRM-boat+NARC/TAG-scout should be equal to stand-alone homing missilesystem Artemis.
In first one u need 2 mechs, Artemis is selfsustainable.

[QuantumButler]

Hey man, I voted yes and I was right.

Glad I was too, I love that LRMs can't do jack to me anymore since I hate using the freaking things

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Talos Valcoran, on 09 November 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

I am so happy to see, that all the n Bs that jumped on the easymodetrain now have serious problems....so nice. I have seen what a very good pilot with artemis can do after the hotfix, and it works as intended.

Ok, he now does 900ish dmg instead of 1200(CAT-C1), but well, it seems ok to him. Now LRMs with or without Artemis are back to the role they should fit... SUPPORT !!!

For me it was always support bcuz except days of LRMwars after tuestday pach we always played 1-2 LRM boats,2 scouts and 4 brawlers . Never in team of 6-7 LRM boats and 1-2 scouts.Its dishonor kill targets when they do not have chance to fire back .
And when we met grps like this they was melted even faster than PUGs

[Joseph Mallan]

Talos Valcoran, on 09 November 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

I am so happy to see, that all the n Bs that jumped on the easymodetrain now have serious problems....so nice. I have seen what a very good pilot with artemis can do after the hotfix, and it works as intended.

Ok, he now does 900ish dmg instead of 1200(CAT-C1), but well, it seems ok to him. Now LRMs with or without Artemis are back to the role they should fit... SUPPORT !!!

And support isn't supposed to be dangerous? The fix for LRMs is almost perfect. I could stand to see a +0.1 added back to LRMs since the spread seems to add to the damage reduction we have now. With that small tweak I think LRMs will be back on par with their ballistic and energy counterparts(with or without Artemis).

[DrAwkward]

Talos Valcoran, on 09 November 2012 - 03:33 AM, said:

I am so happy to see, that all the n Bs that jumped on the easymodetrain now have serious problems....so nice. I have seen what a very good pilot with artemis can do after the hotfix, and it works as intended.

Ok, he now does 900ish dmg instead of 1200(CAT-C1), but well, it seems ok to him. Now LRMs with or without Artemis are back to the role they should fit... SUPPORT !!!

It must be nice to well connected with an arbitrarily awesome friend like that!
And he does 900 damage on average per match? Why that's commendable. He almost hits like a real heavy 'mech! Oh, and according to your last post you aren't too bad of a LRM user yourself. You guys should totally make a montage/fragvid/whatever they call them nowadays.

Ooh, or considering your username, you should wait for the night levels so you can make a "Lord of Night" montage. Make sure to use that edgy and gritty text that you use in your signature. That'll be sweet. Wait, I know you younger, internet 40k guys like to stretch it out with random caps. That'll be sw3eeEEEeeeet.

Seriously, dude. Anytime you want to enter a random thread and figuratively jack off while breaking the CoC, just let me know. I love to watch.




On topic: I just got a chance to run a few experimental runs with Artemis versus no Artemis. A rough guesstimate would be that there is about 10-20% decrease to visual spreading when using Artemis. This appears to mostly benefit shooting at already slow targets. Arcs have been clearly reduced to nearly pre-Nov 6th levels.

I have a slight hunch that the Artemis is not changing the quantity of missiles that are hitting on average, but only where the contacting missiles resolve their damage. I feel this might explain a situation I'm seeing wherein even light and medium 'mechs who slow or stop do not appear to be taking a significantly larger quantity of damage when struck by Artemis-equipped missiles. Those that do hit are striking with higher precision though, so it leads to a situation in which a teammate can easily finish that opponent, but you are unable to efficiently kill them yourself. I suspect that this may be the intention as it does fit within the concept of role warfare.

If this turns out to be the case, I would personally have to shift away from using Artemis on my support builds since I primarily play PUGs. If I spread my shots for efficiency, then I have little to no guarantee for any return on the ammo investments I make; I'd do better packing a pair of large lasers with DHS. I'll do more thorough tests on Sunday to verify.

[Alex Wolfe]

Sarevos, on 08 November 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

No one wanted this game to devolve into a 15 minute long cuban missile crisis

This analogy gave me a good chuckle. Agreed, good riddance to such playstyle. Matches were simply hanging in the back to see which team loses 4-5 people to LRMs first, then moving in and mopping up. Excitement abounds.

DrAwkward, on 09 November 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

jack off while breaking the CoC, just let me know. I love to watch.

So you're big on CoC-abiding, huh.

Quote

Inappropriate Language

This category includes language and/or links to websites containing such language or images which:

• Are a mildly inappropriate reference to human anatomy or bodily functions
  
• Are otherwise considered objectionable

...do you even know what you're typing?

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 November 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[Crieghton James]

As already stated, only the trajectory of LRMs needed to be fixed. However, with the damage reduction, LRMs are a joke now. They are nothing more than pesky horseflies that commit suicide agains your mech's windshield. I felt like a god last night in my Atlas.

[Teralitha]

WarMonkey14, on 08 November 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

i'm praying you people dont end up getting them buffed again. cuz whether you like it or not, it will break the game again.

Yes they overnerfed, the problem is, either the game will be broken, or the LRMS will be broken, because their LRM mechanic is flawed.

[Alex Wolfe]

Crieghton James, on 09 November 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

As already stated, only the trajectory of LRMs needed to be fixed. However, with the damage reduction, LRMs are a joke now. They are nothing more than pesky horseflies that commit suicide agains your mech's windshield. I felt like a god last night in my Atlas.

I've had a game today where enemies broke their teeth on our LRM line (maybe 4 mechs). Went 8-0. They asked if we were a premade, but was just a random pub that stuck together. Mechs that stay in view are flayed by LRMs.

15% damage reduction (that's a whopping 1.5 point less per 5 tubes compared to pre-hotfix) doesn't change god-missiles into "pesky horseflies", regardless of how much you want to make a point.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 09 November 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

I can clearly see how lame LRMs are just by observing how premades play when they encounter lrm boats. They just ignore them. That's how unthreatening they are.

Again, CPLT-K2 in the open, 2 tons of LRM artemis ammo = 20% damage.