144 replies to this topic

[Weiland]

Triggerhippy, on 08 November 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

I thought it was supposed to be a clan star (5mechs) = 2 IS lances

If it had to be that, or severely nerfed Clanners, I'd pick that hands-down. I would definitely like to preserve at least that much of the lore.

[Pangorin]

Please stick to facts, calling somebody a Noob or something is not very helpful!

Someone said the Clans need to be powerful, other said that will not fit to a 50/50 Win ratio, right! And there is the problem. Clans need to be powerful, thats the lore! Win Ratio has to be 50/50, that is how a online game works!

To prohibit Claners to be Premades would not help, because this is a MMO and with the definition of a MMO is this not possible! Everybody needs to have the possibility to play with his friends!

Overhelming strong Clan Mechs (2:1 ratio or higher) vs a bigger number of IS-Mechs will not work.
I try to explain why I think this:
Let's take 3 Gauss-Catapult with 4(!) Gaussrifles instead of 2 fighting a pack of 8 normal IS Mechs (that is what I think is meant with this overhelming power vs. more Mechs). How many Alpha strikes would your Mech survive? Almost every IS Mech would die within ONE alpha! How many Alpha do you need for taking down a Catapult? You see, that is not fun! You take a look around a corner and become scrap metal without having a chance to fight! A team of 3 of this Gauspults could be beaten, sure!!! But it is not fun to see your team winning when you got no chance to fight! Who wants to be the cannonfodder?
But hey, I'am just thinking, maybe PGI got the one great plan we all can not imagine!!!

And as some said, there a lot of problems to be solved before the Clans arrive!

Edited by Pangorin, 08 November 2012 - 04:01 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

Protection, on 08 November 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

Cost is a lazy and terrible way to try to balance in game performance.

The purchase cost of the mech is irrelevant and not a balancing factor since it is only a grind factor.

My point about it is that a Mech that cannot replace or remove:
Endo-Steel Structure
Ferro-Fibrous Armor
XL Engine
Other...

Will be running far higher combined repair costs than anyone else and that IS a balancing factor as long as a Clan mech cannot remove them.

The Stock Timber Wolf has an XL engine so that part alone will make it more expensive per combat to repair.

But lets look at Sarna.net at a few interesting tidbits:

Quote

Changing loadout quickly also required the OmniMech battle computer to accept "snap and go" software for its targeting and tracking system. Likewise, the frame of the OmniMech could not waste space and mass for the physical interfaces of interchangeable equipment. Only standardized, specially constructed OmniMech components could be utilized on the OmniMech's frame.

All components must be "Omnimech". That means a Clan Mech cannot just take a IS PPC and install it. The weapon must be installed in an "Omnipod" before it can be installed in a free Omnipod location.

Quote

OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components: its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.

So, Clan mechs cannot be as 'easily' modified by Engine / Structure / Armor or for that matter some installed modules (Jump-Jets removal a no-no?).

Quote

The modular attachment points to mount OmniMech weaponry and equipment (equipment constructed in an OmniMech Pod) renders such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs. Even for identical classes and brands of equipment, the only ammunition can be used interchangeably.

So, weapons must be "podded" to function on a clan mech

Quote

Adding or removing the Pod connections is possible but adds additional time to repairs. If weaponry and equipment are mounted on an OmniMech without an OmniPod, this equipment is fixed. For mixed units of BattleMechs and OmniMechs this adds an artificial separation and duplication in supply chains and logistics for spare

Well, in short this last bit essentially tells us that installing a non-omni weapon in an omni slot turns the slot inte a hardpoint for that kind of weapon instead.

So they DO have a crapload of limits.

And COST actually becomes a balance issue here apart from the grind.

1: Initial mech chassis of equal design of an IS mech is more expensive from start
2: Repairs will be more expensive due to more expensive equipment
3: Cannot improve or reduce engine/Armor/Internals/Equipment (equipment is rather vague, jumpjets? Heatsinks?)
4: IS weapons cannot be easily installed in an omnimech without being "podded"
5: Installing an IS weapon renders Omnipoint useless as it becomes a regular hardpoint.
6: All weapons IS AND CLAN becomes more expensive if they must be pod compatible first.

[Pangorin]

Teddy, yeah that is right, but there is still the thing with absolute IMBAness on the battlefield. There will always be enough Clan Mechs to stomp your IS mech into the ground, don't you think? Is this fun?
The balance can't be done, in my opinion, by repair costs, it needs to be done on the battlefield. And to make it fun for both sides, there needs to be the chance for an IS mech to fight with an Clan Mech and win! At least a CHANCE!!!
Or with the repair cost, would you like to lose 20 battles for just play one round with your Clan Mech? You know always how it ends before the Battle starts, is that funny?

[Terror Teddy]

Pangorin, on 08 November 2012 - 03:59 AM, said:

Clans need to be powerful, thats the lore! Win Ratio has to be 50/50, that is how a online game works!

Sorry about this but **** lore.

It's technology.

We have the statistics, chassis information, drawbacks and other data close at hand.

Omnimechs are technologically advanced so perhaps the following will be "superior" to an IS mech:
-Torso Twist Radius
-Arm weapon alignment
-Targeting Computer (Faster lock / targeting range)
-Sensor Efficiency (Faster targeting data / radar range
-Quicker startup/shutdown

But with the list of added drawbacks above they are not "powerful" but simply more technologically advanced with added drawbacks for BEING technologically advanced.

More "powerful" is not a good buzzword to throw around since what we essentially are talking about is a piece of fictional technology so it cannot just be designed to be "better" with no clear description.

Sarna Net gives both good data on the good and the bad of the Omnimech.

To me it's like comparing an old car to a modern supercar.

The car is better but the old one can be modded, prodded and improved and changed. The new supercar has better performance but unless we buy parts directly from the factory or leave it to service at their specialist shop then we cant really do as much with it as we can with the old one.

Clan: More powerful mechs but less flexible with options for the driver
IS: Older more reliable tech but slightly slower but more flexible

[Pangorin]

Teddy, be sure I don't care about the lore!!! I only care about the fun!

And actually we think almost the same, there needs to be a balance! The difference between us, I think, is just the way it should be done.
I think the balance needs to be on the battlefield, you, when I got you right, is the "price" and the "tactic".
Price can be one possibility, but ... P2W???
Tactic, possible sure, but think of the casuals not organized in a team!
Hmmm, PGI got a lot of work and needs some real good ideas!

Edited by Pangorin, 08 November 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Pangorin, on 08 November 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

Thats what Iám talking about, Morang!
Example: lets say 12 IS vs. 5 Claner, with an one on one balance of 80% Win for Claners:
That is what I guess you mean! That would lead to the following situation. Claners Premade win almost every battle, no chance for IS! Only "premadeIS" would have a chance (maybe). That sounds good? No, because then there is no way for Lonewolf casual players to play the game! And you have to think (actually PGI) about ALL players!

I think, there is no way around "castration"!

Yes they can play the game. They just have to suck it up. We will be fighting a opponent that has superior weapons and training, but lousy tactics. We are supposed to get our buts handed to us for a few years! That IS the Clan invasion. I don't want to have a rollstomp over the Clans We are supposed to be fighting for our lives in a desperate up hill battle for the freedom of all mankind, and you are talking about balanc(ie nerfing the crap out of the Clans!).

If I wanted the battle you are proposing, I would be fighting the Succession Wars.

[Terror Teddy]

Pangorin, on 08 November 2012 - 04:10 AM, said:

Teddy, yeah that is right, but there is still the thing with absolute IMBAness on the battlefield.

Do we KNOW they will be IMBA on the battlefield?

Have we playtested a Clan Mech against an IS mech?

So lets say they are 'better' with say a 5% bonus to Clan Chassis:
-Torso Twist
-Weapon Alignment
-Acceleration
-Breaking
-Sensor Range
-Targeting Computer Lock Speed & Target Info

-Heatsinks are smaller
-More Tonnage for Weapons
-Less CRITICALS for weapons & Heatsinks (Endo Steel / XL Engine still takes up space)
-Omni Pods (more flexible weapon loadout)

-Weapons give less heat / critical space / tonnage

We do not know if they will have MORE weapons than an IS mech due to weapon SLOTS.

So, they are better, but are they OP? Will 1 mechwarrior trample full teams? There are a LOT of things with the chassis themselves that PGI can toy with to make them "balanced" but still individually powerful.

[Pangorin]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 November 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

Yes they can play the game. They just have to suck it up. We will be fighting a opponent that has superior weapons and training, but lousy tactics. We are supposed to get our buts handed to us for a few years! That IS the Clan invasion. I don't want to have a rollstomp over the Clans We are supposed to be fighting for our lives in a desperate up hill battle for the freedom of all mankind, and you are talking about balanc(ie nerfing the crap out of the Clans!).

If I wanted the battle you are proposing, I would be fighting the Succession Wars.

Well, I understand what you are saying, but do you really think it would work in a MMO? Wouldn't it be so that a new player gets into the game, sees he got no chance with his IS mech and leaves for an other game?
Don't forget, we are not fighting for our lives, we are playing just for fun!

[Pangorin]

Well, Teddy, then we got the same opinion!
I do not know how strong they will be, I just tryed to point out some assumtions that Claners can not be as strong as in the Lore!

That wouldn't work, they have to have some limitations which make it possible to fight a fair and funny fight!
I don't know how PGI will do it, but I'am sure there will be some complains within the community, because a Atlas shot down a "whatever"-ClanMech. But this needs to be possible in someway.
There needs to be a balance on the battlefield in whatever way, there needs to be fun for both sides!!!

[Terror Teddy]

Pangorin, on 08 November 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

Price can be one possibility, but ... P2W???

Well, my thought was more along the lines that if someone grinds the 25 million for a Timber Wolf they also need to pay more for EVERYTHING.

Im leaving real cash out of this becase the moment we can buy and repair superior mechs using real money then something is wrong.

IS weapons: Cost to convert into Omnipod weapon = (?) X2 or X3 initial weapon cost?
Clan weapon: X6 cost of normal weapon due to being twice cost of a IS converted weapon
Equipment: ECM and similar equipment would have to be in modules too so X3 to X6 cost

Repairs: You want field repairs on your Clan mech at a forward observation post after a battle:

Well, try to drive your Koenigsegg to a run down Albanian gas station:

http://farm7.static...._9d2fb21d0f.jpg

You are gonna have to pay with your very soul to get the parts delievered there instead of leaving it with the professional IS/Clan factory team:

http://biser3a.com/w...ari-pitstop.jpg

So running repairs should reflect the rarity of the mech as well. This would FORCE the player to actually try to survive so that they don't LOOSE money in a match.

Also, taking down 1 Clan mech should give AMPLE salvage bonus.

BUT, the omnimech must also be balanced statwise. As long as they give them ample drawbacks I'm happy. First I'd like them to balance the Gauss vs regular ballistics and the PPC against other energy weapons.

THEN they can fiddle with the clans.

[Terror Teddy]

Pangorin, on 08 November 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

Well, Teddy, then we got the same opinion!
I do not know how strong they will be, I just tryed to point out some assumtions that Claners can not be as strong as in the Lore!

Well, since it is an MMO and the main difference between the IS and the Clans was not technology in general:

IS: Divided kingdoms fighting border skirmishes among the stars
Clan: A united almost religiously fanatical caste driven piledriver of a dedicated ARMY hell bent on reaching EARTH of legend.

IS problems was more of divided politics before they seriously banded together and kicked *** as a organized unified military.

[Draco Argentum]

Protection, on 08 November 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

In fairness, you are worrying about issue #11432 facing PGI, and they are still sorting out issues #37 through #68.

If we even get to the clan invasion, so many other things that are still broken, bugged, imbalanced, yet-to-be-implemented, or not working will have changed the game so completely that we wont be able to make judgements about it now in this state.


Basically, it's a way down the road. Worry about what's on our plate right now, and next year's main course can be planned out after this months groceries are bought.

The proper way to do it would be to have all the systems designed on paper right now. That way you'd have everything balanced within about 10% first go. Of course you could say that about IS equipment and its clear that PGI doesn't do it this way.

[Pangorin]

Terror Teddy, on 08 November 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

BUT, the omnimech must also be balanced statwise. As long as they give them ample drawbacks I'm happy. First I'd like them to balance the Gauss vs regular ballistics and the PPC against other energy weapons.

THEN they can fiddle with the clans.

SIGN!
SO, let's wait until the Clan Mechs arrive then we will see what happens! Maybe PGI got THE PLAN!
But be sure, I will fight those Claners until the last screw of my Atlas breaks! They will never occupy MY Inner Sphere!!!

Edited by Pangorin, 08 November 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Pangorin, on 08 November 2012 - 04:26 AM, said:

Well, I understand what you are saying, but do you really think it would work in a MMO? Wouldn't it be so that a new player gets into the game, sees he got no chance with his IS mech and leaves for an other game?
Don't forget, we are not fighting for our lives, we are playing just for fun!

It works for Whitcher 2. We are going to be simulating a fight against a superior opponent. Casual and warfare don't go together. The FNG can fight vs the Houses then. There is some fighting going on between the Houses during this time. Consider it to be the games easy mode!

[MustrumRidcully]

Weiland, on 08 November 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

This is more of a personal concern than a particular statement of any kind.

BT has always been about a power creep of sorts. MWO is focused on a general balance for all things, which isn't what the original games were all about.

So, here's my thought process. Either:

• MWO will include Clan mechs and they'll prove a significant power edge over IS mechs, which will obviously provide a balance issue. OR
  
• MWO will include Clan mechs that are heavily nerfed from their originals and depart pretty significantly from the spirit of what makes the Clans "Clan".

Anyone else having this concern? I'm not seeing a straightforward way to avoid both pitfalls. Balance concerns are a big enough issue these days as it is, and yet we still see more and more of the BT canon sacrificed in an attempt to compensate.




Thoughts?

I wonder about the same question. The fact that they nerfed Double Heat Sinks could lead to Clan mechs being unusable in their standard config. It's already bad enough with their weapon balance for standard stock mechs with regular standard heat sinks, but losing another 30 % cooling capacity will hurt significantly.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 08 November 2012 - 04:46 AM.

[Pangorin]

Joseph Mallan, on 08 November 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

It works for Whitcher 2. We are going to be simulating a fight against a superior opponent. Casual and warfare don't go together. The FNG can fight vs the Houses then. There is some fighting going on between the Houses during this time. Consider it to be the games easy mode!

But if this works? I doubt this! But to be honest I don't know! Maybe yes, maybe no, who knows?
And wouldn't there be complaints about "not beeing able to see the whole game!" Topics?
As long as PGI does not tell us anything we are just fishing in the dark, maybe there will be just a PvE part for the fights IS vs Clan, would be an option as well! (I wouldn't like it!!!)

Let us just wait and see what happens, we can't do more at the moment!

[Terror Teddy]

Pangorin, on 08 November 2012 - 04:39 AM, said:

They will never occupy MY Inner Sphere!!!

I'll "occupy your inner sphere" if you know what I mean *nudge* *nudge* *wink* *wink*

In all seriousness though the best way for them would be to give clan mech 'hulls' a bonus due to being more advanced technology that is reflected in the cost:

Depending on weight the bonuses could perhaps range between 1-5%

Chassis Bonus
+Torso Twist
+Torso Tilt
+Better Gyros (Harder to knockdown)
+Arm Alignment Speed
+Faster Targeting Info
+Longer Sensor Range
+Longer Targeting Range

Weapon Pods
Even the clans would have a tactical doctrine and a certain chassis layout so with Omnipods in mind their Pod location should reflect that so that there are several chassis to choose from - Especially since we have a pilot tree to think of.

The standard Timber Wolf have the iconic Box Launchers on the shoulders and should be a fixed hardpoint for missiles but Omni points in the arms and torso.

Drawbacks
-Can only mount Omnipod converted or designed weapons
-Cannot mount IS weapons directly on Omnipod locations
-Fixed Engine
-Fixed Internals
-Fixed Armor (must buy new chassis to get different armor type)
-Fixed Equipment (Jump Jets / LAMS / AMS / ECM / Beagle cannot be added or removed)

So, the Clan MECHS are only slightly better but have drawbacks.

Clan EQUIPMENT on the other hands is wherein the power lays and most people would be able to gain access to them.

Clan equipment cost would include the cost of stripping them from their pod mounting and installing it as a regular weapon for IS mechs.

Edited by Terror Teddy, 08 November 2012 - 05:05 AM.

[Khobai]

clan mechs will be a joke with 1.4 double heatsinks

how are clan erppcs, heavy large lasers, er large lasers, etc supposed to function at all? the clan large energy weapons wont work for the same reason the inner sphere large energy weapons dont currently work... heat. which is a shame because the biggest advantage the clans have is in those weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 08 November 2012 - 05:35 AM.

[Pangorin]

No Clan will occupy my Inner Sphere because >insert some random fantastical explanaitions<. We will smash those >insert some random defamations< Claners. Your "Super Mechs" will have no chance against our superior tactical abillities!


I'am sure, when the Clan invasion beginns there will be at least a lot of fun in the forum. "Flame War" at it's best!
Can't wait for that!!!