791 replies to this topic

[Wispsy]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

I agree, but they are underpowered at the moment. I said it once, and i'll say it again... A heavy mech should be able to do decent damage with their ammo dependent weapons... decent meaning on par with other similar ranged weapons with similar tonnage.

And many Lrmers of heavy and even lighter weight classes are reporting that they can.....

[Dren Nas]

Wispsy, on 10 November 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

And many Lrmers of heavy and even lighter weight classes are reporting that they can.....

I've yet to see any... unless you're referring to the "yes they are more in line since they fixed LRMs when they were broken for 48 hours."

Edited by Dren Nas, 10 November 2012 - 02:45 PM.

[Wispsy]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 02:44 PM, said:

If that's the case, LRMs really need a buff if LRM mechs are having to rely on their secondary weapons to put up decent numbers

Many are not. I did not say that they were. Many do, mixed builds are viable as well.

[Wendigo Vendetta]

As with anything in a competitive game, balance is everything... so let's go down the list.

LRMs are pretty heavy tonnage-wise for the damage they do. Check.

They generate a medium-high amount of heat for the damage they do. Check.

They have a huge minium range gap within which they are useless. Check.

They require a long steady target lock which the current maps make all but impossible at long range and which is pretty easy to break anyway. Check.

They are the only weapon that actually WARN you that you are being targeted by it. Check.

They require you to carry lots of ammunition along with the attendant risks of tons of ammunition. Check.

Mechs are often built around the weapon system, are usually pretty slow-to-medium in speed, and easy prey to foes that enter your huge close-in uselessness-bubble. Check.

They have the LONGEST travel time from origin to target of any weapon in the game. Check.

They have a small variant (LRM 5) that is now hilariously outgunned for a risky 3 ton minimum investment. Check.

There is an actual, honest-to-gawd weapon system (AMS) that reduces their effectiveness and knocks them out of the air before they hit their target... not so for other weapons. Check.

You can just walk under cover in the magically impervious landscape to totally avoid them while still returning direct fire. Check.

They are the only actual weapons with the words "Long Range" in them, yet still somehow manage to be outgunned and out-ranged by bullets and magnetically propelled cannonballs of doom. Check

So, considdering all that, they pretty much SHOULD blast the everliving hell out of you if they ever manage to hit you.

But, who am I kidding, "Da Brawlahs" will whine-down any attempt to rebalance them back to usefullness.

The true problem here is that a team composed entirely of LRM heavy mechs packed quite a punch, but the same could be said for ANY themed weapons team. Gause teams would melt people at ranges even longer and with far more speed, but they are not common in general and non-existant in trial mechs... hence the inability of the average person to get a handle on the real balance issues due to overexposure/underexposure.

Edited by Wendigo Vendetta, 10 November 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[Dren Nas]

Wispsy, on 10 November 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

Many are not. I did not say that they were. Many do, mixed builds are viable as well.

Kaijin, on 10 November 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Truth. I drive a Commando 1D and post-hotfix, I run around with impunity.

That.

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

As with anything in a competitive game, balance is everything... so let's go down the list.

LRMs are pretty heavy tonnage-wise for the damage they do. Check.

They generate a medium-high amount of heat for the damage they do. Check.

They have a huge minium range gap within which they are useless. Check.

They require a long steady target lock which the current maps make all but impossible at long range and which is pretty easy to break anyway. Check.

They are the only weapon that actually WARN you that you are being targeted by it. Check.

They require you to carry lots of ammunition along with the attendant risks of tons of ammunition. Check.

Mechs are often built around the weapon system, are usually pretty slow-to-medium in speed, and easy prey to foes that enter your huge close-in uselessness-bubble. Check.

They have the LONGEST travel time from origin to target of any weapon in the game. Check.

They have a small variant (LRM 5) that is now hilariously outgunned for a risky 3 ton minimum investment. Check.

There is an actual, honest-to-gawd weapon system (AMS) that reduces their effectiveness and knocks them out of the air before they hit their target... not so for other weapons. Check.

You can just walk under cover in the magically impervious landscape to totally avoid them while still returning direct fire. Check.

Are the actual only weapon with the words "Long Range" in it, yet still somehow manage to be outgunned and out-ranged by magnetically propelled cannonballs of doom. Check

So, considdering all that, they pretty much SHOULD blast the everliving hell out of you if they ever manage to hit you.

But, who am I kidding, "Da Brawlahs" will whine-down any attempt to rebalance them back to usefullness.

Thank you. You have validated everything i have been attempting to explain this entire thread. XD

[Dorque]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 02:35 PM, said:

I agree, but they are underpowered at the moment. I said it once, and i'll say it again... A heavy mech should be able to do decent damage with their ammo dependent weapons... decent meaning on par with other similar ranged weapons with similar tonnage.

I think our fundamental disagreement here is that, well, not all weapons are meant to do damage "on par". LRMs are a long-distance soft-artillery solution. You can fire them again and again without leaving cover. That fact alone means that, no, they should NOT do damage "on par" with other weapons. If you want your LRMs to be equivalent to my ACs, then I should be able to hit you with my ACs from 1000m away without line-of-sight to you.

::EDIT::

If the longest-range weapon in the game and the only one that can hit from behind cover did damage on-par with every other weapon, why would anyone use anything else?

Edited by Dorque, 10 November 2012 - 02:55 PM.

[Dren Nas]

They can't hit you behind cover...

Also, I refer you to this posted by a previous poster.

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

As with anything in a competitive game, balance is everything... so let's go down the list.

LRMs are pretty heavy tonnage-wise for the damage they do. Check.

They generate a medium-high amount of heat for the damage they do. Check.

They have a huge minium range gap within which they are useless. Check.

They require a long steady target lock which the current maps make all but impossible at long range and which is pretty easy to break anyway. Check.

They are the only weapon that actually WARN you that you are being targeted by it. Check.

They require you to carry lots of ammunition along with the attendant risks of tons of ammunition. Check.

Mechs are often built around the weapon system, are usually pretty slow-to-medium in speed, and easy prey to foes that enter your huge close-in uselessness-bubble. Check.

They have the LONGEST travel time from origin to target of any weapon in the game. Check.

They have a small variant (LRM 5) that is now hilariously outgunned for a risky 3 ton minimum investment. Check.

There is an actual, honest-to-gawd weapon system (AMS) that reduces their effectiveness and knocks them out of the air before they hit their target... not so for other weapons. Check.

You can just walk under cover in the magically impervious landscape to totally avoid them while still returning direct fire. Check.

They are the actual only weapon with the words "Long Range" in it, yet still somehow manage to be outgunned and out-ranged by magnetically propelled cannonballs of doom. Check

So, considdering all that, they pretty much SHOULD blast the everliving hell out of you if they ever manage to hit you.

But, who am I kidding, "Da Brawlahs" will whine-down any attempt to rebalance them back to usefullness.

The true problem here is that a team composed entirely of LRM heavy mechs packed quite a punch, but the same could be said for ANY themed weapons team. Gause teams would melt people at ranges even longer and with far more speed, but they are not common and non-existant in trial mechs... hence the inability of the average person to get a handle on the real balance issues due to overexposure/underexposure.

[Dorque]

I read it, Dren. Answer the question.

I'm NOT saying the values might not need an adjustment but the crying going on right now is insane.

I don't see what you're not getting about this concept:

You are trading sheer firepower for extreme range and defensibility. I'm not saying that they can hit you behind cover I'm saying that LRM boats can stay under cover and still hit their target. If LRMs did equivalent damage,

Quote

A heavy mech should be able to do decent damage with their ammo dependent weapons... decent meaning on par with other similar ranged weapons with similar tonnage.

you would literally have to be insane to play anything but a scout or an LRM boat.

[Wispsy]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

That.

Well done, you countered everything I have ever said with one persons quote on how nobody ever bothers to press R on his commando. A quote from somebody who uses lrms a lot and knows many of the ways to annoy not so awesome lrmers (his own admission, more then once).

[Ghostrider0067]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

They can't hit you behind cover...

They *should* be able to hit you in cover at a reduced percentage chance if you've been visually spotted by a recon mech (such as a Raven or Jenner). If all you need to do to break LRM lock is to bring your mech into an area that provides cover, that's absolutely asnine. If you were to shut down, that's one thing. I suppose it really depends on the type of homing the game uses for missile lock, such as radar, infrared, or something else.

If the missiles were a more accurate representation of how they should be, having an AMS would almost be a requirement.

[Dren Nas]

Dorque, on 10 November 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

I read it, Dren. Answer the question.

I'm NOT saying the values might not need an adjustment but the crying going on right now is insane.

I don't see what you're not getting about this concept:

You are trading sheer firepower for extreme range and defensibility. I'm not saying that they can hit you behind cover I'm saying that LRM boats can stay under cover and still hit their target. If LRMs did equivalent damage,



you would literally have to be insane to play anything but a scout or an LRM boat.

You do realize that the whole idea behind LRMs is damage at a distance and not damage up close? Your ACs hit me up close for tons of damage UNDER MY MINIMUM RANGE. If your proposed change would have ACs that can't hit anything withing a minimum range, sure, but if you want that mininum range.... no.

Wispsy, on 10 November 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Well done, you countered everything I have ever said with one persons quote on how nobody ever bothers to press R on his commando. A quote from somebody who uses lrms a lot and knows many of the ways to annoy not so awesome lrmers (his own admission, more then once).

and once people learn how to "annoy not so awesome lrmers" isn't the LRM nurf too much?

[Wispsy]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

You do realize that the whole idea behind LRMs is damage at a distance and not damage up close? Your ACs hit me up close for tons of damage UNDER MY MINIMUM RANGE. If your proposed change would have ACs that can't hit anything withing a minimum range, sure, but if you want that mininum range.... no.



and once people learn how to "annoy not so awesome lrmers" isn't the LRM nurf too much?

No because most not so awesome lrmers become slightly more awesome lrmers and learn to predict and how to react to such things so that they can effectively counter them. Some do not and complain their weapon needs enough damage to kill any approaching atlas if he leaves his cover at 300m from them....

[Dren Nas]

Wispsy, on 10 November 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

No because most not so awesome lrmers become slightly more awesome lrmers and learn to predict and how to react to such things so that they can effectively counter them. Some do not and complain their weapon needs enough damage to kill any approaching atlas if he leaves his cover at 300m from them....

If a catapult expells his entire compliment of ammunition 700+ on an approching mech, that should take that particular mech down. If you're saying that LRMs should only do a little bit of extra damage to help brawlers take down other mechs, then no one should use LRMs because you would be a moron for equipping a subpar weapon system especially with the numerous ways to avoid LRMs that Wendigo Vendetta outlined earlier. There's just no reason to use them.

People keep saying "LRMs are support..." But right now they're impotent and little more than nusiences...

[axeman]

I keep hearing about the glorious days before the patch that broke LRMs as being perfect, yet I seem to recall from my experience of the time every game having at least 2-3 Atlas missile towers raining **** on everyone. They were still too powerful then.

I do think they're a bit underpowered now, but not by much. Certainly you can't rely on random fleeting target locks from people you can't see while they engage their own targets to rack up your damage firing from concealment like you used to.

I take two tonnes of LRMs on my catapult, unless I have a dedicated spotter I'm in communication with, I don't fire unless I see and lock my own targets who won't make it to cover in time.

It's an overnerf I think. I'd like to see missiles a little bit better than now but it's a pleasant change to see the variety in the games at the moment and not just LRM annihalation, I got pretty sick of seeing three Atlas D-DCs a side and that was *before* the 'day of the missiles' patch

[Dorque]

axeman, on 10 November 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

It's an overnerf I think. I'd like to see missiles a little bit better than now but it's a pleasant change to see the variety in the games at the moment and not just LRM annihalation, I got pretty sick of seeing three Atlas D-DCs a side and that was *before* the 'day of the missiles' patch

I'd say give them some time, they're trying to find a sweet spot and unless you're very lucky you're not going to hit it overnight.

[Dren Nas]

axeman, on 10 November 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

I keep hearing about the glorious days before the patch that broke LRMs as being perfect, yet I seem to recall from my experience of the time every game having at least 2-3 Atlas missile towers raining **** on everyone. They were still too powerful then.

I do think they're a bit underpowered now, but not by much. Certainly you can't rely on random fleeting target locks from people you can't see while they engage their own targets to rack up your damage firing from concealment like you used to.

I take two tonnes of LRMs on my catapult, unless I have a dedicated spotter I'm in communication with, I don't fire unless I see and lock my own targets who won't make it to cover in time.

It's an overnerf I think. I'd like to see missiles a little bit better than now but it's a pleasant change to see the variety in the games at the moment and not just LRM annihalation, I got pretty sick of seeing three Atlas D-DCs a side and that was *before* the 'day of the missiles' patch

Agreed. I'm not asking for a "ZOMG! LEMME KILL ERRTING WITH MUH SKAIFIAR!" I'm saying make LRMs competative again.

[RG Notch]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

If a catapult expells his entire compliment of ammunition 700+ on an approching mech, that should take that particular mech down. If you're saying that LRMs should only do a little bit of extra damage to help brawlers take down other mechs, then no one should use LRMs because you would be a moron for equipping a subpar weapon system especially with the numerous ways to avoid LRMs that Wendigo Vendetta outlined earlier. There's just no reason to use them.

People keep saying "LRMs are support..." But right now they're impotent and little more than nusiences...

So lets bring them back to where you're a moron for not taking them.

[Dren Nas]

RG Notch, on 10 November 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

So lets bring them back to where you're a moron for not taking them.

I believe that I have said on numerous occasions that I'm asking for them to be competative in regards to
weapons with similar slots/tonnage. Please add something to the conversation with your snide comments.

Edited by Dren Nas, 10 November 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[the huanglong]

Weighing in...

First of all, battlegrid is your friend. Instead of firing at the target brackets your scouts see on the distant horizon, look for friendlies who are circle duelling. They will certainly hold the lock. Just by giving an incoming missile warning you have probably won that duel. I feel bad that you won't get E-Cred for it, but it wins games.

Pasted from another thread:
I've found damage per game with LRMs is now on par with other weapons (balanced) rather than the copious amounts D-DC missile towers were raking in before. I consider myself to be an average player and I've raked in plenty of kills using a HBK-4J with DHS and a pair of Artemis upgraded LRM 10s, which is hardly an optimized build.

An Atlas AS7-D-DC with 3 LRM 15s has lost a whopping 13.5 damage, 76.5 compared to 90 before, nearly a gauss worth. A jenner with an lrm 5 has lost 1.5 from 10. My hunchback has lost 6 from 40, and like I said, it still works fine. Boaters and spammers feel it most, and I am pretty sure PGI has said they prefer rounded mechs to boats. In their current state, LRMs still win matches, but they do not decide them before the the all the players have joined.

Edited by the huanglong, 10 November 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[Wispsy]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

If a catapult expells his entire compliment of ammunition 700+ on an approching mech, that should take that particular mech down. If you're saying that LRMs should only do a little bit of extra damage to help brawlers take down other mechs, then no one should use LRMs because you would be a moron for equipping a subpar weapon system especially with the numerous ways to avoid LRMs that Wendigo Vendetta outlined earlier. There's just no reason to use them.

People keep saying "LRMs are support..." But right now they're impotent and little more than nusiences...

Now you are clearly taking other peoples arguments and blowing them out of proportion and acting like they are what I have said.
LRMs are fine, when used right. If you are blowing 700 rounds at a mech and are unable to take it down you are doing it wrong. The weapons are not to blame, it is a problem between your keyboard and your chair. Plenty of other people are doing absolutely fine with them and are an asset to their team.