791 replies to this topic

[Kronos907]

At time through the beta ive had up to 16 mech and never equip LRMs on any of them because they took the fun out of the game.

I ran an Atlas LRM boat once and all i did was stand in one spot for 10 minutes slapping my mouse button and ended up with 4 kills and not a scratch, it was pathetic. I was so bored i delted the build and dont every use LRMs

Im a brawler by nature and like the up close and personal feel of the game.

LRMs are for NooBs and low skill players, and are for support purposes.

I believe LRMsare perfectly balance right now.

[RG Notch]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

I believe that I have said on numerous occasions that I'm asking for them to be competative in regards to
weapons with similar slots/tonnage. Please add something to the conversation with your snide comments.

And I believe I said I don't believe you merely want them "competitive" as your second choice of weaponry was a weapon you claimed was OP yourself. No one who wants their easy button back asks for their easy button back directly. Also I don't believe you can empty your ammo and not kill a single mech, hyperbole just makes your argument seem specious. Besides if a 15% damage decrease made them useless how much do they need to be "competitive".

[Revorn]

Well, it looks like game changes into NO LRM, Ok, iam sure PGI are able to lift the loss of Players trough this.

A useless Weaponsystem ingame and a bunch of seffocused Players who try to tell, that all is oki. Rofl.

[Kaziganthi]

WeekendWarrior, on 10 November 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Uhm, thats pretty much what i said.
And if you might explain to me the difference between the TTs 5 point clusters and your "splash damage", please?

OK. In the TT game an LRM20 for example would do between 6 and 20 points of damage dependant upon the roll. Thats 1 hit of 5 + 1 Lowest roll or 4 hits of 5.

Now for hit locations (I'll use front facing for the example) you have 8 areas :Head, Centre Torso, Left/Right torso, Left/Right arm, Left/right Leg. Left/right arm have 2 slots each on the table so they have a 2/11 chance of being hit each, the centre torso also has a 2/11 chance (one being also a chance at a critical hit), the rest have 1/11. lets ignore the doubles and assume just 8 locations for ease.

So if I manage to hit with all 20 missiles thats 4 - 5 point damage hits for 8 locations.
So I have a 50/50 chance of hitting the same place twice doing 10 points( or 17 points in MWO)

In MWO that 20 (mwo 34) points spread over those same 8 locations. In this situation the odds are not likely i'll be doing 10 (mwo 17) points of damage to one location. The damage is more widely spread, thus taking longer to penetrate the mechs armour to get to the internals as the damage is allocated in 1.7 hits across the 8 locations.

WeekendWarrior, on 10 November 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

LRMs have a range of 21 hexes.
630 meters.
SIXHUNDREDANDTHIRTY.
LRMs are "introductionary tech", or Lvl1 for the oldschoolers.
Artillery isn't. Artillery even has its own rules sections.
LRMs are as much artillery as an orbital strike is.

You point being?
PPC's have a minimum range of 3 hexes, or 90 meters,
AC/2 has a minimum range of 4 hexes - 120m
AC5 has minimum range of 3 - 90 meters again
Guass has a minmum range
Ultra AC/5 has a minimum range

We don't see this in MWO.

Ok lets assume we dropped the LRM's back to 630m and brought all other weapon ranges back into line. Still does not invalidate them as a artillery.

Artillery by definition is : Weapons, such as catapults, arbalests, and other devices, used for discharging missiles. It is also movable artillery (other than antiaircraft) used by armies in the field (especially for direct support of front-line troops).

WeekendWarrior, on 10 November 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Uhm, you realize that would effectively double the power of every other weapon?

Yes, but people are wanting lrms to be nerfed back to their original TT stat of 1pt per missile. As they were increase in damage due to the fact armour was doubled, if they want it halved back to 1, halve the armour. If you didn't get the point, i was being sarcastic to that poster.

edited for MWO damages

Edited by Kaziganthi, 10 November 2012 - 04:22 PM.

[Shalune]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Agreed. I'm not asking for a "ZOMG! LEMME KILL ERRTING WITH MUH SKAIFIAR!" I'm saying make LRMs competative again.

This is the problem. You are trying to ask that LRMs be competitive with other weapons and compare them directly. LRMs fill a unique role which means that these comparisons will naturally be biased towards the LRM or other weapon depending on the scenario you use. Instead we have to gauge viability on whether or not it accomplishes its intended role. You keep talking about LRMs' raw stopping power, but their main role isn't to kill things. It's a slower method of damage that has the unique advantage of accurate indirect fire. Lights spot targets behind the lines for you to hit which leads to 1 of 3 results:

- They stay where they are and die. Exactly as stupid as it sounds, this is why LRMs role really isn't to kill things.

- They retreat to heavy cover. This limits their maneuverability and visibility, allowing your team to make a move. Hey look, suppression!

- They charge your position. This forces them into your own team's line of fire to be killed.

This is why we describe LRMs as support. They create situations that are advantageous to your team, and also rely on the team to be truly effective. If your teammates are (1) not spotting for you (2) not communicating and/or maneuvering when possible (3) not covering you, then yes it's going to suck being the team's LRM boat. Again, your role is support, and your effectiveness is heavily reliant on teamwork. This is going to be very hit and miss in pugs, so if that's a problem I'd recommend another role or more solo-oriented build that combines LRMs with other weaponry.

[Kittygrinder]

I didnt read the thread, just the OP. Very simple... Good. The less lrm boaters the better.

This patch killed 2 of the most annoying things in the game, lrm boats and streak boats are no longer major threats. That needed to happen. The game is now more balanced, and less stupid.

[Mordekai]

I think LRMs are good as they are right now. They can soften targets up pretty good like they are supposed to. And they arent any longer OP killers like they were before the hotfix. Put an artemis on your boat and keep the LOS to the target and everythiing is ok.

Leave em like they are devs. You did a good job here.

[Kaziganthi]

Shalune, on 10 November 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

This is the problem. You are trying to ask that LRMs be competitive with other weapons and compare them directly. LRMs fill a unique role which means that these comparisons will naturally be biased towards the LRM or other weapon depending on the scenario you use. Instead we have to gauge viability on whether or not it accomplishes its intended role. You keep talking about LRMs' raw stopping power, but their main role isn't to kill things. It's a slower method of damage that has the unique advantage of accurate indirect fire. Lights spot targets behind the lines for you to hit which leads to 1 of 3 results:

- They stay where they are and die. Exactly as stupid as it sounds, this is why LRMs role really isn't to kill things.

- They retreat to heavy cover. This limits their maneuverability and visibility, allowing your team to make a move. Hey look, suppression!

- They charge your position. This forces them into your own team's line of fire to be killed.

This is why we describe LRMs as support. They create situations that are advantageous to your team, and also rely on the team to be truly effective. If your teammates are (1) not spotting for you (2) not communicating and/or maneuvering when possible (3) not covering you, then yes it's going to suck being the team's LRM boat. Again, your role is support, and your effectiveness is heavily reliant on teamwork. This is going to be very hit and miss in pugs, so if that's a problem I'd recommend another role or more solo-oriented build that combines LRMs with other weaponry.

Name me one other weapon configuration where if it puts out 50 points of damage in 3 alpha strikes and cant take down a light mech.

Mordekai, on 10 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

I think LRMs are good as they are right now. They can soften targets up pretty good like they are supposed to. And they arent any longer OP killers like they were before the hotfix. Put an artemis on your boat and keep the LOS to the target and everythiing is ok.

Leave em like they are devs. You did a good job here.

Allow Narc beacons to work like they are supposed to, and I'll gladly not argue the damage side of LRM's in their current state.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 10 November 2012 - 04:33 PM.

[Dagger906]

Mordekai, on 10 November 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

I think LRMs are good as they are right now. They can soften targets up pretty good like they are supposed to. And they arent any longer OP killers like they were before the hotfix. Put an artemis on your boat and keep the LOS to the target and everythiing is ok.

Leave em like they are devs. You did a good job here.

They're worthless as they are now. 8 cats can lob LRMs at a jenner all day and barely scratch it. Majority of missiles miss, even out of cover.

I don't understand why devs make Death From Above one day, then nerf to complete worthlessness the next. Why can't they put them back to closed beta level and leave it? It was well balanced back then, far worse than Death From Above, a bit worse than they were just before Death From Above, far better then they are now.

[Kaziganthi]

Dagger906, on 10 November 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

They're worthless as they are now. 8 cats can lob LRMs at a jenner all day and barely scratch it. Majority of missiles miss, even out of cover.

I don't understand why devs make Death From Above one day, then nerf to complete worthlessness the next. Why can't they put them back to closed beta level and leave it? It was well balanced back then, far worse than Death From Above, a bit worse than they were just before Death From Above, far better then they are now.

Because the moment Artemis came in and worked correctly (ignore flight path coding issues), 20% more damage would be done and people would cry again that LRM's were OP. Just wait till Clan tech arrives and all the energy weapons do more damage. Then they'll nerf the damage down to the point that thecomparative IS weaponry will be useless.

Just like nobody uses the NARC beacon. Why waste tonnage on a missile delivery system and ammo, when I can take TAG.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 10 November 2012 - 04:34 PM.

[Shalune]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Name me one other weapon configuration where if it puts out 50 points of damage in 3 alpha strikes and cant take down a light mech.

I'm not sure you read my post if you're asking that. But for the sake of argument: almost any mech with a 50+ alpha. Lights are amazing 1 on 1 against slow mechs of all sizes and roles.

[Kaziganthi]

Shalune, on 10 November 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

I'm not sure you read my post if you're asking that. But for the sake of argument: almost any mech with a 50+ alpha. Lights are amazing 1 on 1 against slow mechs of all sizes and roles.

I did, and what I was trying to point out is that a support mech with the ability to fire 40-50 LRM's should be able to the same amount of damage overall as a light mech. That same mech should also be able to severly injure any light mech that is stupid enough to get caught out in the open. That currently is not the case. I have alpha striked a jenner running in a path 90 degrees to my position 3 times with 50 lrm's, and he was barely scratched. I saw the missile hit him, not plow into the ground due to his speed, but explosions over his mech.

I agree that the LRM support roll is to soften things up, but I can attest that I have fired over 1000 rounds at the same mech, an Atlas and it did not drop. Even 500 rounds should have been enough to soften him up for the close in fighters.

In all matches prior to the hotfixand artemis, I never ran dry of ammo and would come out with maybe 1 kill and 3-4 assists. Now I run dry of 1440 rounds, and barely come out with 1 assist.

[WeekendWarrior]

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

As with anything in a competitive game, balance is everything... so let's go down the list.

LRMs are pretty heavy tonnage-wise for the damage they do. Check.

LRMs are actually pretty light compared to most other weapons.
LRM5: 2 tons
LRM10: 5 tons
AC5: 8 tons
And most people tend to forget to factor in the heatsinks that are required to run the weapon.

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

They generate a medium-high amount of heat for the damage they do. Check.

simply wrong

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

They have a huge minium range gap within which they are useless. Check.

They require a long steady target lock which the current maps make all but impossible at long range and which is pretty easy to break anyway. Check.

true
But thats where this "role warfare" kicks in, and why its called a "support weapon".
Support the brawlers, they tend to keep their targets locked on...

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

They are the only weapon that actually WARN you that you are being targeted by it. Check.

SRMs

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

They require you to carry lots of ammunition along with the attendant risks of tons of ammunition. Check.

Like every other weapon thats not Energy
(are Gauss explosions in the game?)

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Mechs are often built around the weapon system, are usually pretty slow-to-medium in speed, and easy prey to foes that enter your huge close-in uselessness-bubble. Check.

And your point is?
That a long range specialist is weak at short range?

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

They have the LONGEST travel time from origin to target of any weapon in the game. Check.

true

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

They have a small variant (LRM 5) that is now hilariously outgunned for a risky 3 ton minimum investment. Check.

Only a problem thanks to the hardpoint system.
On the TT the LRM5 is actually the most efficient laucher.

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

There is an actual, honest-to-gawd weapon system (AMS) that reduces their effectiveness and knocks them out of the air before they hit their target... not so for other weapons. Check.

true
Every other weapon system (except Streaks) just needs a sidestep to avoid, LRMs need a weapon....



oh great, seems there's a max number of quotes?

Edited by WeekendWarrior, 10 November 2012 - 04:47 PM.

[axeman]

Since when could LRMs kill lights? they never hit them and never really have. Since day one I've been on the chats telling people to stop wasting their missiles on the first jenner someone invariably locks.

[WeekendWarrior]

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

You can just walk under cover in the magically impervious landscape to totally avoid them while still returning direct fire. Check.

true
Though pretty much only for bridges.
Considering no other weapon can shoot over hills...

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

They are the only actual weapons with the words "Long Range" in them, yet still somehow manage to be outgunned and out-ranged by bullets and magnetically propelled cannonballs of doom. Check

Yeah, kinda weird that the weapons with the words "Extreme Range" in the name are actually shorter ranged, isn't it?

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

So, considdering all that, they pretty much SHOULD blast the everliving hell out of you if they ever manage to hit you.

Balance?
You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Kaziganthi]

axeman, on 10 November 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

Since when could LRMs kill lights? they never hit them and never really have. Since day one I've been on the chats telling people to stop wasting their missiles on the first jenner someone invariably locks.

If the light mech pilot is foolish enough to get in the open, 40-50 lrms can strip them down 50%. Or you look for that light mech that likes to Jump, hard to twist and turn in the air to avoid incoming missiles. The same for when the circle straffe, been able to take down the odd 1 or 2 there when timed right and they cop it full in the face.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 10 November 2012 - 04:50 PM.

[axeman]

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

If the light mech pilot is foolish enough to get in the open, 40-50 lrms can strip them down 50%. Or you look for that light mech that likes to Jump, hard to twist and turn in the air to avoid incoming missiles. The same for when the circle straffe, been able to take down the odd 1 or 2 there when timed right and they cop it full in the face.

That's all fair enough, but surely light mechs are the *least* ideal target for LRM support and not the one anyone should be expecting stellar results on right?

[Kaijin]

Dorque, on 10 November 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

you would literally have to be insane to play anything but a scout or an LRM boat.

Color me insane. Even when damage was good with LRMs, I drove Catapults, Centurions and Commandos, fitted at different times with a wide range of weaponry. ERPPCs, ERLLs, LLs, MLs, MPLs, GRs, AC2s, AC5s, AC10s, SSRms, and SRMs. And LRMs too. I'm not a one-trick-pony.

Edited by Kaijin, 10 November 2012 - 08:06 PM.

[Sybreed]

I'm taking the LRM 10 off my Centurion-A and replace it with 2 SSRM2. It's just not able to support the role the mech as well as it used to. Before, the LRM10-AC10 combo worked very well together to soften targets from long distance, now the LRM isn't doing its part. Therefore, it's taken off for something more efficient. This nerf is unfortunately dooming hybrid builds.

[Sybreed]

just did 1 game with 3 SSRM2 instead of one LRM 10 build... did over 450 dmg, when before I struggled to do over 250 dmg with the LRM 10. The superiority of that build is quite amazing... which is sad because I used to deal as much damage with the LRM10/AC10 combo before the Nov 6th patch. I think PGI wanted to make clear stock builds are really not viable and it's smarter to boat short range or long range weaponry.