791 replies to this topic

[Lewkowski]

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

As with anything in a competitive game, balance is everything... so let's go down the list.

LRMs are pretty heavy tonnage-wise for the damage they do. Check.

They generate a medium-high amount of heat for the damage they do. Check.

They have a huge minium range gap within which they are useless. Check.

They require a long steady target lock which the current maps make all but impossible at long range and which is pretty easy to break anyway. Check.

They are the only weapon that actually WARN you that you are being targeted by it. Check.

They require you to carry lots of ammunition along with the attendant risks of tons of ammunition. Check.

Mechs are often built around the weapon system, are usually pretty slow-to-medium in speed, and easy prey to foes that enter your huge close-in uselessness-bubble. Check.

They have the LONGEST travel time from origin to target of any weapon in the game. Check.

They have a small variant (LRM 5) that is now hilariously outgunned for a risky 3 ton minimum investment. Check.

There is an actual, honest-to-gawd weapon system (AMS) that reduces their effectiveness and knocks them out of the air before they hit their target... not so for other weapons. Check.

You can just walk under cover in the magically impervious landscape to totally avoid them while still returning direct fire. Check.

They are the only actual weapons with the words "Long Range" in them, yet still somehow manage to be outgunned and out-ranged by bullets and magnetically propelled cannonballs of doom. Check

So, considdering all that, they pretty much SHOULD blast the everliving hell out of you if they ever manage to hit you.

But, who am I kidding, "Da Brawlahs" will whine-down any attempt to rebalance them back to usefullness.

The true problem here is that a team composed entirely of LRM heavy mechs packed quite a punch, but the same could be said for ANY themed weapons team. Gause teams would melt people at ranges even longer and with far more speed, but they are not common in general and non-existant in trial mechs... hence the inability of the average person to get a handle on the real balance issues due to overexposure/underexposure.

LRM5's have always been awful in the lore.

[Jonathan Paine]

An Atlas in the open without ams will not survive 700+ missiles. Let's discuss reality rather than hyperbole.

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

At random times throughout the beta, I would pick a mech and run out in the open, be spotted, and diesoon afterward to the sky falling on top of my head. At others, I would be the one launching explosive death. I learned that to get away from LRMs you use cover and even powerdown randomly to break targeting locks.

Today, I can sit in my catapult and drop hell on an atlas trudging out in the open with my entire 700+ missiles and not even phase him.

It's quite disheartening to the point that I've even taken all LRMs off my Catapults and replaced them with SRMs or SRM Streaks.... or even removed missiles completely replaced with lasers.. or even dual Gauss (lolgausscat).

My point is that since the LRM nurf, there's really no reason to equip them when other long range weapons deal so much more damage. Oh, and before you say something along the lines of "QQmoar" or "That's all he plays", I have an atlas and yen lo wang that I play quite often.

TL;DR: LRMs have been nurfed too hard.

[NovaFury]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 10:04 AM, said:

Right now, LRMs are so uncompetative that myself and all of my buddies that play are just dumbfounded that they're as unuseful as they are. If a LRM boat isn't supposed to do "competative damage" why not just remomve LRMs from the game so everyone goes to brawling type weaponry and make the game more one dimentional.

Strange. They do the most damage in the game.

LRM20s: 34pts, 10 tons
LRM15s: 25.5pts, 7 tons
AC20: 20pts, 14 tons
Gauss rifle: 15pts, 15 tons.
ER-PPC: 10pts, 7 tons.

Sure, LRMs spread damage out, but they have 1000m optimal range with no damage degradation, run heat-neutral with engine DHS, have the largest potential damage per ammunition tonnage of any weapon, highest damage per launcher of any weapon, damage per tonnage, damage per second, and highest damage-over-range of any weapon. The fact that they can be dodged so easily is because LRMs are statistically so dangerous that everyone had to learn to hide from them immediately after being locked. Buffing them because people learned they were too dangerous to ignore is silly.

So you can't aim center torso when firing at targets you can't see in the first place. Of course, you don't even have to aim at all.

I mastered the Cat-C4, and frankly, having two indirectly-firing, heat neutral, automatically aiming LBX-AC40s on my mech was boring.

Edited by NovaFury, 10 November 2012 - 06:08 PM.

[shadin]

I had a LRM 15 on all my atlas builds, but I pulled them off went with SRM6s.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

NovaFury, on 10 November 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

LRM20s: 34pts, 10 tons
LRM15s: 25.5pts, 7 tons
AC20: 20pts, 14 tons
Gauss rifle: 15pts, 15 tons
ER-PPC: 10pts, 7 tons.

Fix'd

And yes, they're still very useful -- just not "LOL I WIN" anymore. Its like they require skill, or actually playing the game now, so weird.

[NovaFury]

Thanks Highlander. I was using old data.

The point stands.

[wanderer]

*sighs* It's amazing how people take any weapon capable of shooting them without them shooting back as "OP".

Before LRMs were good, people complained about being sniped.

Then they complained about LRMs.

If LRMs stay this nerfed, we'll be back to complaining about snipers, as the ex-LRM boats will take up Gausscats and return to drilling out your CT from 1000m. As I've noted before, it's a double nerf- damage was reduced AND spread was increased, meaning fewer missiles actually hit, and more of those "hits" are splash damage, spreading damage even wider and weaker than a simple damage tweak would cause. This means not only do LRMs do less damage, that damage is also spread even further and is actually twice-weakened- I'd actually say LRM racks are effectively 1.5 now- if they had the prenerf spread (not the broken Artemis version) they'd be closer to actually 1.7.

Relish the change if you like, but it really did go overboard.

[mechymike]

for the first time since i first started playing in closed beta... i am having FUN in this game.

leave LRMs the way they are! they still hurt, but they don't wipe you out instantly like they did before.
now we don't sit back and have to wait for thousands and thousands of missles to be traded back forth, now we can actually engage in a fight. as someone who favors light mechs, this is AWESOMEEEE. my old job consisted of running around keeping my eyes on targets while taking a massive beating from the enemy team/trying to dodge LRMs. now i can actually fight enemy mechs instead of always hugging rocks/buildings. god knows AMS didn't do jack to save your life before this patch.


UNTIL ECM IS FUNCTIONAL, LRMS SHOULD STAY THE WAY THEY ARE!!!!

[mechymike]

wanderer, on 10 November 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

*sighs* It's amazing how people take any weapon capable of shooting them without them shooting back as "OP".

Before LRMs were good, people complained about being sniped.

Then they complained about LRMs.

If LRMs stay this nerfed, we'll be back to complaining about snipers, as the ex-LRM boats will take up Gausscats and return to drilling out your CT from 1000m. As I've noted before, it's a double nerf- damage was reduced AND spread was increased, meaning fewer missiles actually hit, and more of those "hits" are splash damage, spreading damage even wider and weaker than a simple damage tweak would cause. This means not only do LRMs do less damage, that damage is also spread even further and is actually twice-weakened- I'd actually say LRM racks are effectively 1.5 now- if they had the prenerf spread (not the broken Artemis version) they'd be closer to actually 1.7.

Relish the change if you like, but it really did go overboard.

don't forget LRMs were double buffed in closed beta not too long ago. tag/narc was released AND they got a damage buff...

what missles really need are a drop in ammo prices so you can justify taking them as a support weapon. right now we still pay the premium main damage dealing price for what is now (and always should have been) a long range support weapon.


the nerf to the SSRM's spread leads me to believe that PGI wants missles as a whole, to be for support. which isn't a bad idea. yeah yeah tabletop blah blah blah. PGI has an action packed video game to balance so things will be changed to keep the game fun and atleast somewhat fair.

Edited by mechymike, 10 November 2012 - 06:34 PM.

[Tempworker]

THEY HAVE BEEN NERFED TOO HARD

I can go through the entire rack on my missile boat now.. and Im doing less damage than I did pre-Artemis.. less than half of what I did when I first mounted Artemis..

Think on that.

I had to drop tonage and spend a fat wad of cash.. now I do less damage.
Pre-artemis, nobody was complaining too much about LRMs.. not with anything more than the usual whining.


I admit it was too strong.. but you went too far..


The only reason some of you will still say "its raining LRMs all over.. they aren't nerfed enough" is because there are more people trying to play missile boats because they THINK they are OPed.


dial it back a bit please .. LRMs make it interesting..
you want to reduce their use.. change your maps a bit...

maps with bad lines of site or high city lines for hiding would put missile boats at a disadvantage quite often..

besides.. with all the lights running around drooling at the though of finding an LRM cat.. it can be a hit or miss type of experience already.


give back some of the damage.. i can do far more damage as it is on either my gauss cat or srm cat.. and they die halfway through a round with ammo still on the racks...
an LRM boat making it to the end of a flat map.. with a solid pilot..
after pounding out 1400 missiles.. should do more than 475 dmg
remember: thats scattered over 8 armor locations usually.. with the bulk hitting the most heavily armored chest pieces...

[Tuoweit]

Shaddock, on 10 November 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

When LRMs get to where they are no longer feared on the battlefield, they arent doing their jobs. Weapons are meant to be scary. If/when the forums constantly cry foul because they died while strolling through the open we are going to be left with doing nothing but shooting teddy bears and hugs at each other.

But they ARE feared. There's a reason why everyone has learned to stick to cover, try to break LOS on a spotter when they get the incoming missile warning, spend valuable tonnage mounting AMSes that might never be useful, and otherwise do all they can to avoid taking LRM fire.

It means brawling mechs that get an "Incoming Missiles" warning have to start worrying not just about maneuvering around the enemy and the terrain but also not facing their backs to LRM fire (or think about withdrawing from the brawl entirely), which makes it more difficult for them and can cause the pilot to make tactical errors.

It means sniping mechs have to frequently move in and out of LOS to avoid being hit, which means they may miss shots and opportunities they otherwise wouldn't have.

Just having LRMs on a team has a huge impact on how the other team plays, even if you don't see big damage numbers.

Relkathi, on 10 November 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

LRMs should be 1 point of damage per every missile that hits. If you are dumb enough not to seek cover, then you deserve to die.

LRMs do 1.7 damage per missile. Relative to TT rules, LRMs have received the biggest percentage damage increase of all weapons, even after being reduced to 1.7. There's reasons for it, of course, mainly that you can't aim LRMs whereas most other weapon systems you can (and hence why they were increased in the first place relative to other weapons).

Joseph Mallan, on 10 November 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Ok then lets tweak it up to 1.8. Missiles need to be just a bit more scary. 2.0 is over the top (barely). Folks can say how to beat LRMs and be correct. ALl the defenses used vs them work perfectly. BUt i is sad that people can say they are standing in the rain and not caring.

NOBODY in this thread is saying they are standing in LRM fire and not caring. Nobody. ONE person provided an anecdote of firing on an enemy Atlas, of all things, which weathered his fire, which could be attributable to a variety of factors. (See below.)

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

You'd better tell the Armed forces of the world to destroy all their long ranged weaponry because it shouldn't do a tonne of damage.

You do realize that MWO is based on a (gameplay-balanced) board game called Battletech, and not meant to be a futuristic military sim, right?

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Nope, I had the mech in my LOS at all times, thats how impotentt they are now the Atlas didnt even try for cover. Just walk straight up to me as I was firing away while i was reversing, him exhanging lrm 20's for my Twin Lrm15's and 10's. Zoom mode showed missiles hitting, Target damage screen showed barley anything at all.

At what range did you open fire? LRM fire vs self-spotted targets is only effective to 630m, as far as I know, while spotting ranges are around 750m. (I don't know if the missiles are still rendered as impacting.) Did he have an AMS? Or even two? Did he have nearby friendlies with AMSes? It's pretty hard for us to evaluate the strength of your anecdotal evidence without the entirety of the situation laid out.

Kurayami, on 10 November 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

also 2x ams on the same mech intercepting twice as fast, but 2 ams on different mechs will intercept just slightly better than 1.

I don't know from my own experience if that's true (I've never piloted an Atlas-K), but this makes sense. The two AMSes on the same mech can coordinate and share fire control, whereas they can't (or don't) on separate mechs. An EW module of some kind to allow better information sharing (like detailed targeting info, if someone else has it already when you acquire that target) and coordinated fire control for AMSes would be cool, but perhaps a little OP.

Kaziganthi, on 10 November 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

PPC's have a minimum range of 3 hexes, or 90 meters,
We don't see this in MWO.

PPCs actually do have a minimum range of 90m, though I'm not sure how that's actually implemented in-game. I know they seem to deal much less damage up close, though.

Edited by Tuoweit, 10 November 2012 - 08:14 PM.

[Araxes]

Wendigo Vendetta, on 10 November 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

As with anything in a competitive game, balance is everything... so let's go down the list.

LRMs are pretty heavy tonnage-wise for the damage they do. Check.

They generate a medium-high amount of heat for the damage they do. Check.

They have a huge minium range gap within which they are useless. Check.

They require a long steady target lock which the current maps make all but impossible at long range and which is pretty easy to break anyway. Check.

They are the only weapon that actually WARN you that you are being targeted by it. Check.

They require you to carry lots of ammunition along with the attendant risks of tons of ammunition. Check.

Mechs are often built around the weapon system, are usually pretty slow-to-medium in speed, and easy prey to foes that enter your huge close-in uselessness-bubble. Check.

They have the LONGEST travel time from origin to target of any weapon in the game. Check.

They have a small variant (LRM 5) that is now hilariously outgunned for a risky 3 ton minimum investment. Check.

There is an actual, honest-to-gawd weapon system (AMS) that reduces their effectiveness and knocks them out of the air before they hit their target... not so for other weapons. Check.

You can just walk under cover in the magically impervious landscape to totally avoid them while still returning direct fire. Check.

They are the only actual weapons with the words "Long Range" in them, yet still somehow manage to be outgunned and out-ranged by bullets and magnetically propelled cannonballs of doom. Check

So, considdering all that, they pretty much SHOULD blast the everliving hell out of you if they ever manage to hit you.

But, who am I kidding, "Da Brawlahs" will whine-down any attempt to rebalance them back to usefullness.

The true problem here is that a team composed entirely of LRM heavy mechs packed quite a punch, but the same could be said for ANY themed weapons team. Gause teams would melt people at ranges even longer and with far more speed, but they are not common in general and non-existant in trial mechs... hence the inability of the average person to get a handle on the real balance issues due to overexposure/underexposure.

This guy gets it. LRMs have been massively over-nerfed. There's barely any point running a missile Cat anymore.

Hugely disappointed in PGI for caving in to the whining ' waah no skill' tools who couldn't be bothered to find cover or break LOS. Every match is a brawl now, LRMs or not, and snipers now have no effective counter. LRMs need a fix, and fast - the ineffectiveness of LRMs has seriously reduced the number of tactical options in the game.

[Sovery_Simple]

Easy way to approach this issue, are people still considering their valuable mech tonnage to be worth placing AMS to counter primarily LRMs? If your targets are considering you dangerous enough to do so, maybe they still consider you to be a valid threat on the field?

AMS is more a "I hope I don't die hopping from cover to cover from lrms" instead of "I like to brawl out in the open without worry of LRMs, so I took an AMS!"

[Araxes]

Whoops, on 10 November 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

Easy way to approach this issue, are people still considering their valuable mech tonnage to be worth placing AMS to counter primarily LRMs? If your targets are considering you dangerous enough to do so, maybe they still consider you to be a valid threat on the field?

AMS is more a "I hope I don't die hopping from cover to cover from lrms" instead of "I like to brawl out in the open without worry of LRMs, so I took an AMS!"

I've dropped AMS on most of mine. There's just no point anymore; missiles are slow enough to avoid with even the most basic effort, and the damage is now worthless.

[TostitoBandito]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

My point is that since the LRM nurf, there's really no reason to equip them when other long range weapons deal so much more damage.

Indirect fire. A gauss rifle can't shoot through a hill and hit a target 800 meters away. LRM's are now support weapons, as they should be. Damage seems about right. Only adjustment I'd like is to make them slightly more effective against moving targets.

Edited by TostitoBandito, 10 November 2012 - 07:21 PM.

[Araxes]

TostitoBandito, on 10 November 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Indirect fire. A gauss rifle can't shoot through a hill and hit a target 800 meters away.

Irrelevant straw man. Try harder.

[HurlockHolmes]

Relkathi, on 10 November 2012 - 10:09 AM, said:

You have obviously never been in the military. As currently one of the most powerful weapons in the military is the M109A6 Paladin, which allows Soldiers to rain metal death from 36,000meters away. If weapons in 3049 can't match that, then why other using them at all.

ATM, LRMs are useless, they aren't a threat to any mech, let alone an Atlas.

LRMs should be 1 point of damage per every missile that hits. If you are dumb enough not to seek cover, then you deserve to die.

So you want them weaker then they are now? okay lol (Protip: they used to do 2 points of damage, and now do 1.7, which is hardly a gamebreaking difference.)

Also why compare real life to a game in which isn't even based on real life?

If you want realism go play ArmA 2.

[Elizander]

I think they are more balanced now in terms of mass use due to what happened lately with the Artemis system. They are definitely weaker than before the patch. I got an RS and felt lazy so I just plugged in my extra LRM launchers into it with 1800 rounds (and no re-arm so that's 1350). I am not sure if it's worth putting Artemis onto my RS since I plan to just PPC/Laserboat it someday but it's only 1.3m I think so I might give it a try.

It still forces people to back off and find cover (even without Artemis) so I do not think they are worthless.

Edited by Elizander, 10 November 2012 - 07:42 PM.

[FenixofBria]

LRMS are a support weapon.

An Atlas will go down 1-2% with one volley of a single LRM20.

Learn to play instead of jumping from one FOTM to the next.

[Dakkss]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Right now LRM mechs can NOT kill anyone solo unless it's basically a killsteal.

Why SHOULD a mech that uses mainly one type of weapon be able to solo a mech, including ones that are tougher than it? Instead of complaining, how about you use something in conjunction with the LRM's, like some Large Lasers? Did it ever occur to you that LRM's are not a primary weapon, but a support weapon intended to help the TEAM, not YOURSELF?

All your asking is that LRM's become amazingly dangerous, so that you can solo Atlases all day long, while they can't, because they do not load themselves on LRM's completely.