791 replies to this topic

[ArcadiaNisus]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

I've even taken all LRMs off my Catapults .. or even dual Gauss (lolgausscat).

To anyone with LRM's on your gauss capable cat, I recommend keeping them. That is a very rare variant. They are in fact so rare they don't even exist.

[Kaziganthi]

axeman, on 10 November 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

That's all fair enough, but surely light mechs are the *least* ideal target for LRM support and not the one anyone should be expecting stellar results on right?

Not the ideal target yes, but as they can spot for their team and give postions on my teams mechs location and composition, it is best practice to take them down as fast as possible.

[Kaziganthi]

Tuoweit, on 10 November 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

At what range did you open fire? LRM fire vs self-spotted targets is only effective to 630m, as far as I know, while spotting ranges are around 750m. (I don't know if the missiles are still rendered as impacting.) Did he have an AMS? Or even two? Did he have nearby friendlies with AMSes? It's pretty hard for us to evaluate the strength of your anecdotal evidence without the entirety of the situation laid out.

Ok, the range I opend up was approx 900m, due to being spotted by a scout mech on the ridgeline of the caustic crater. He saw missile incoming and continued towards my location. At approx 700-750m he started to engage me with his lrms. He was a stock Atlas, no AMS.

As far as I am aware, LRMs do not have a reduction in damage over range.

As far

Tuoweit, on 10 November 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

PPCs actually do have a minimum range of 90m, though I'm not sure how that's actually implemented in-game. I know they seem to deal much less damage up close, though.

They do less damage, but are still able to fire (i think the range is 30 or 60m, not 100%)

Dak Darklighter, on 10 November 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Why SHOULD a mech that uses mainly one type of weapon be able to solo a mech, including ones that are tougher than it?

*cough* Hunchback/Jenner Laserboats only use one type of weapon *cough*

Edited by Kaziganthi, 10 November 2012 - 08:40 PM.

[Mechwarrior413183]

I'm trialling SRMs on my C4 if that works well enough I might convert my C1F to a close range SRM build too, I seem to be able to have more of an impact in an AC20 Yen Lo Wang with poor aim than in the LRM Cat C1. Need more money before I can see how a Gausskitty compares, my K2 just has ERLLs atm.

So far I've only died to LRMs when I'm one of the last guys left and the whole team is on me, and I'm really not good at this game.

[Shaddock]

Whoops, on 10 November 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

Easy way to approach this issue, are people still considering their valuable mech tonnage to be worth placing AMS to counter primarily LRMs? If your targets are considering you dangerous enough to do so, maybe they still consider you to be a valid threat on the field?

AMS is more a "I hope I don't die hopping from cover to cover from lrms" instead of "I like to brawl out in the open without worry of LRMs, so I took an AMS!"

I am at the moment considering taking AMS off many of my mechs.

[Dren Nas]

RG Notch, on 10 November 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

And I believe I said I don't believe you merely want them "competitive" as your second choice of weaponry was a weapon you claimed was OP yourself. No one who wants their easy button back asks for their easy button back directly. Also I don't believe you can empty your ammo and not kill a single mech, hyperbole just makes your argument seem specious. Besides if a 15% damage decrease made them useless how much do they need to be "competitive".

Roll a LRM mech and see how it goes. You'll change your mind.

[SpiralRazor]

"They still pack a hurt and when used smartly (in combo with other weapons and team mates)"


This is an dim witted argument. Virtually any weapon in the game fits that description. >.<

[Dren Nas]

Shalune, on 10 November 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

This is the problem. You are trying to ask that LRMs be competitive with other weapons and compare them directly. LRMs fill a unique role which means that these comparisons will naturally be biased towards the LRM or other weapon depending on the scenario you use. Instead we have to gauge viability on whether or not it accomplishes its intended role. You keep talking about LRMs' raw stopping power, but their main role isn't to kill things. It's a slower method of damage that has the unique advantage of accurate indirect fire. Lights spot targets behind the lines for you to hit which leads to 1 of 3 results:

- They stay where they are and die. Exactly as stupid as it sounds, this is why LRMs role really isn't to kill things.

- They retreat to heavy cover. This limits their maneuverability and visibility, allowing your team to make a move. Hey look, suppression!

- They charge your position. This forces them into your own team's line of fire to be killed.

This is why we describe LRMs as support. They create situations that are advantageous to your team, and also rely on the team to be truly effective. If your teammates are (1) not spotting for you (2) not communicating and/or maneuvering when possible (3) not covering you, then yes it's going to suck being the team's LRM boat. Again, your role is support, and your effectiveness is heavily reliant on teamwork. This is going to be very hit and miss in pugs, so if that's a problem I'd recommend another role or more solo-oriented build that combines LRMs with other weaponry.

But LRMs aren't forcing people to retreat, charge, or change their gameplay at the moment. I normally roll with a lance of 3 to 4 people. 1 light mech, a LRM catapult (which we're beginning to move away from now), and 1 to 2 other random mechs depending on how my group feels at that perticular moment. We have a dedicated ventrilo server. The guy playing the light mech isn't the bestest ever, but he's decent, and he holds a spot.... uses a narc... and even the laser pointer.

SO we seem to have all 3 of your requirements fulfilled to have a successful LRM mech.... and yes, the LRM catapult is still coming up short since the LRM nurf.

[trycksh0t]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

Roll a LRM mech and see how it goes. You'll change your mind.

Hmm...I'm currently rolling a Dual Artemis 20 Catapult with 720 missiles and 4 medium lasers, and I have no clue what everyone's complaining about. I've consistently been in the top 3 damage dealers with this 'Mech, putting up over 300 damage without the lasers even coming into play. I've eaten Atlas for over 20% of their overall health (which encompases more than just armor) with missiles to spare, torn lights and mediums to ribbons with only missile fire, and ultimately have had an absolute blast (no pun intended).

[Dren Nas]

Kittygrinder, on 10 November 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

I didnt read the thread, just the OP. Very simple... Good. The less lrm boaters the better.

This patch killed 2 of the most annoying things in the game, lrm boats and streak boats are no longer major threats. That needed to happen. The game is now more balanced, and less stupid.

Yes, by killing different weapon styles we can make the game more "balanced".... and while we're at it, lets only put one type of laser in... Turn all lasers into medium lasers. it'll be easier to balance and make the game less stupid because I won't have to think about heat as much.

[GrabbleRus]

They need to revert LRMs back to the state of before 6th. It was fine then. But missile trajectory (and Artemis) broke the LRMs. It was hotfixed. But they nerfed damage as well. Why? As of now, LRMs are much worse then before the patch of the 6th November.

I'm against LRM wars. But LRMs should restrict mechs from lazily walking in the open. It's their purpose after all.

[MorbidGamer]

Thinking about turning my Awesome into an LRM boat. Since streak SRM is a joke now.

I think LRM's are perfect. They are not overpowered like they were and now we got alot more movement on the battlefield. Instead of people humping a hill for 10 mins like before.

LRM is still a powerful weapon especially if you catch someone in the open with no cover near by.

If you don't like LRM there is still alot of other people that still play it. So you wont be missed in the once great sea of LRM players. God mode is now over.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I just wanted to weigh in here a bit.

For a goodly while over the last month or so of CB, I was running as one of my many mechs an Atlas D-DC with three LRM15s. Pretty much ever since they bumped damage up to 2.0, I've been able consistently to top the damage charts with that thing, and often got most of the team's kills to boot.

Now sure, that's a lot of missiles, and I tended to bring nine or so tons of ammo along to sustain that kind of firepower, and sure I'd get torn up despite my pair of backup mpls when the enemy got smart and got some fast-movers in to knife-fighting range with me, but should I really have been able to top 1k damage and 5+ kills regularly? With nothing more than LRMs? When I could consistently slug it out with direct-fire Atlases (often more than one) and just mow them down in sequence, it seemed rather obvious to me that LRMs did rather too much damage, and it was way too concentrated on the CT.

All that the November 6 bug did was illuminate the already-broken LRMs in a harsh light where they were impossible to avoid. They were revealed even to those who had long denied it to be much too strong, and so PGI, when they implemented the fix to the broken flight paths, took the first step on the road to balance.

To illustrate my point, a few of my friends and I got together and launch in a mini-premade. I ran a Jenner (no TAG or anything), and they ran LRM carriers. We farmed c-bills like madmen. I consistently made 20-30k on spotting and assist rewards (often ending with 300k+ after repairs), and they invariably had obscene damage numbers and most of the team's kills. About the only games we lost that night were ones where we too faced an LRM-boat premade that had good scouts, or when the enemy had really good scout-hunters. Even then, my Jenner tended to be the one to suffer most, while our group's LRM carriers generally still did lots of damage and got lots of kills. Now, we could have done very nearly this same thing over the past several weeks, but the reason we didn't was because it wasn't fun, and there were alternatives that could be made to work nearly as well. The flight paths breaking simply removed the last vestiges of alternative gameplay (by rendering cover useless), and we decided that the best way to get it fixed quickly was to give PGI more data (and make a bunch of c-bills in the process).

Sure, some people might think they need a bit more damage per missile, and others might think they need to be weakened even more. Sure, grouping might need to be tightened, or to allow Artemis IV and TAG to stack, or perhaps it needs to be loosened even more and or the gear needs to be weakened further. Well, guess what. PGI tracks stats as people play. If you want PGI to modify a weapon, the best way to do it is to use that weapon. Use it a bunch, with a variety of builds, team mates, and tactics. Get them some nice, shiny data that they can crunch so that they can determine if a .1 damage per missile buff is necessary, or if they need more ammo per ton, or whatever.

What you should not do is post redundant threads on an already-saturated forum. If you feel the need to post about something, might I suggest using the search function? If that is broken, then maybe check the last page or two of threads to see if any of them might be appropriate. Just quickly browsing the General Discussion forum, I found a couple such threads in the first two pages, and I know they are in the Patch Feedback forum as well.

Edit for full disclosure: Just to make things clear, I'm actually very pleased with where LRMs are now. Boats still contribute, and still make it painful to be caught by a spotter or out in the open, but they are no longer the doing double or triple the damage of every other build, they no longer are single handedly murdering whole teams, and in general they are useful without being overpowered. For that matter, I still run LRMs on several of my mechs (I haven't bought a D-DC yet, since the OB wipe, but I use them on other mechs), and I'm well-pleased with the long-range and indirect fire capability that they provide.

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 10 November 2012 - 09:11 PM.

[Gimpy Warpig]

Ghostrider0067, on 10 November 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

...sic... I've not yet DL'ed the game since my rig is old and in need of a rebuild...sic... I suppose that I'm not qualified to speak on the topic specifically due to my lack of in-game experience at this point....but... blah blah *talking about a game he hasnt even played and taking a post made in the forums as correct without said actual knowle* blah blah....

You're right, you shouldnt comment on something you're not remotely qualified to comment on. Get the game, play for a while, then you're thoughts will be relevant. The more the merrier, until then dont agree with something without any knowledge of the actual game.

To the LRM poster: get better, LRM's are PLENTY powerful enough still. My AMS chirping away (until empty, then I'm SOL) still gets me running for cover. LRM's a support weap, and fills a good role - and are fun to play with still, even if you arent getting as many kills with them as before they still get PLENTY of points and will kill just fine if used properly.

[Dren Nas]

NovaFury, on 10 November 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Strange. They do the most damage in the game.

LRM20s: 34pts, 10 tons
LRM15s: 25.5pts, 7 tons
AC20: 20pts, 14 tons
Gauss rifle: 15pts, 15 tons.
ER-PPC: 10pts, 7 tons.

Sure, LRMs spread damage out, but they have 1000m optimal range with no damage degradation, run heat-neutral with engine DHS, have the largest potential damage per ammunition tonnage of any weapon, highest damage per launcher of any weapon, damage per tonnage, damage per second, and highest damage-over-range of any weapon. The fact that they can be dodged so easily is because LRMs are statistically so dangerous that everyone had to learn to hide from them immediately after being locked. Buffing them because people learned they were too dangerous to ignore is silly.

So you can't aim center torso when firing at targets you can't see in the first place. Of course, you don't even have to aim at all.

I mastered the Cat-C4, and frankly, having two indirectly-firing, heat neutral, automatically aiming LBX-AC40s on my mech was boring.

Sure, LRMs have great damage on paper.... but a decent player using all the tricks (read Wendigo Vendetta's post) and an AMS negate 90% of the damage. Also, they nurfed the LRMs because they were too dangerous to ignore... now people can ignore them again... which is silly.

[Phingers]

Maxed fitted LRM Cat, my exp....it was good before they went into overkill with Artemis system and the dive down head strike taking a medium mech to its knees.....that was disgustingly overpowered.

Now its just so pathetic.

Before patch, a light mech could out run you but if he was slow.....3 full volleys could bring him down. But Targeting sucked the missiles pathing was horrible so you risked exposure, or a full rack just clipping a building or hill. It was semi ok..... and a decent playstyle for those of us on higher pings.

Patch OMG....the missile pathing was brilliant but it was SO effective nuthing could get away, one volley and I dropped a medium mech to 38%, second volley dead. I was stunned... Now that was wrong. it was OVER POWERED. Ending a match doing almost 1000 damage.

Now after the tone down its HORRIBLE. I have actually removed my AMS, The wonderful missile pathing of the previous patch is horrible...any cover I mean any rock screws with the damage....aka the missile doesnt come down vertical after a pop up it comes down at 45 degrees and scoots in along ground....so objects get in the way far more often, the damage side of it is worse than before. Killing a jenner in the open ? nigh impossible now....3 full salvos the jenner crosses the 800 m is in your face and you have made the light mech what 85% damaged? Before you could scare a jenner off and he would try and and come at you from a less open angle....now they dont care. Its pretty obvious now being a LRM boat I am continually swamped by 3 jenners. I am just going to play a streak cat and sit in back and LOOK like an LRM boat just to punch that gamestyle in its face.

The damage is so bad now that I use to in a match not run out of ammo I would always end up around 30%. Now I am ALWAYS out before a game is over. Its way worse than it was before. When you have a medium Hunchback out in the open and 3 full rack salvos land on him he has no AMS and you take 6% off him? I do more damage to him with my 4 medium lasers. ATM I am considering removing artiemis but then i am not sure with the damage I am doing with this setup it wont even be worse.

[Khobai]

Quote

Strange. They do the most damage in the game.

Not really. Youre assuming all the missiles are guaranteed to hit. You couldnt be more wrong.

[Dren Nas]

Dak Darklighter, on 10 November 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

Why SHOULD a mech that uses mainly one type of weapon be able to solo a mech, including ones that are tougher than it? Instead of complaining, how about you use something in conjunction with the LRM's, like some Large Lasers? Did it ever occur to you that LRM's are not a primary weapon, but a support weapon intended to help the TEAM, not YOURSELF?

All your asking is that LRM's become amazingly dangerous, so that you can solo Atlases all day long, while they can't, because they do not load themselves on LRM's completely.

Why should I have to expel around 1,000 missiles to bring someone to maybe 50% armor?

And yes, if I can keep an Atlas at range why shouldn't a LONG RANGE MISSILE mech be able to kill it?

It's called kiting, but if I run out of the almost 1,000 rounds I brought with me into the game... I can only run away and hope a mech with real damage intercepts him.

[Gimpy Warpig]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

But LRMs aren't forcing people to retreat, charge, or change their gameplay at the moment. I normally roll with a lance of 3 to 4 people. 1 light mech, a LRM catapult (which we're beginning to move away from now), and 1 to 2 other random mechs depending on how my group feels at that perticular moment. We have a dedicated ventrilo server. The guy playing the light mech isn't the bestest ever, but he's decent, and he holds a spot.... uses a narc... and even the laser pointer.

SO we seem to have all 3 of your requirements fulfilled to have a successful LRM mech.... and yes, the LRM catapult is still coming up short since the LRM nurf.

Answer: your LRM catapult pilot doesnt know how to pilot his way out of a wet paper bag then. Stop making yourself look foolish whining that the broken weapon system was fixed. They operate just fine still, was winging some of my buddies today who dealt out bigbig damage with their lrm boats, but they weren't insta-killing like before - they had to work for it, just like any other weapon in the game.

[MajorLeeHung]

UraniumOverdose, on 10 November 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

Any weapon that allows to sit behind cover 1000M away and still deal damage, should not do a ton of damage. As others have said it's a support weapon for softening up your targets that if played properly presents little risk to yourself. If you want a weapon system that does all the work for you, then live with the fact that you don't get the high damage numbers or the multiple kills per game that brawlers deserve to get.

Oh so a LRM support should spent between 100-150k in cbills every round so YOU can get the kill/xp/salvage? Damn man whatever your on please share with all of us.