791 replies to this topic

[Sarevos]

Shaddock, on 11 November 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

Your team does have to maintain LOS...

no YOU have to have los the spotter is how youre even able to fire indirectly...

[Shaddock]

Sarevos, on 11 November 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

no YOU have to have los the spotter is how youre even able to fire indirectly...

Unless you have a spotter that is somehow not on your team I am not sure what was incorrect about my statement.

[Greyfyl]

Viper69, on 11 November 2012 - 06:20 AM, said:

As for not doing competitive damage? That is funny because in all my 4 man drops the LRM mech in our group was still near the top and still racking up kills.

So the other 3 people in your premade were standing around with their thumbs in their backsides? Either that or they weren't very good.

[Shalune]

brtz, on 11 November 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

You think bolding up keyparts makes your statement correct? Let me correct that for you: Kills matter, it does not matter who is doing them. It is important to kill your opponent because otherwise you will leave some nearly cored but still armed enemy on the field. Current implementation does not allow a face to face standoff between some atlas and an lrm awesome. You will need about 1000 missiles to kill him and he will definitely kill you while charging up the 820 meters you've got.

LRMs are currently no real thread to anybody with ams or buddies with ams. Force them to stay in cover? I just count the lrms on my opponent and if he's got less than I got I just stand in the open. I just know that I don't have to take cover.

So, instead of whining here's my suggestion:
Make LRM+Artemis act like LRMs before nov. 6th patch. They were decent. They did suppress your enemy. They enabled you to face off some assault mech. Without Artemis they should be like they are now. This way Artemis is worth its money and you can actually grind with a lrm build.

I think this is very important as any current build that relies on missiles doesn't make much sense. Take the A1 for example: By now you can either go for lrm and hope to deal enough damage before getting challenged or you can go for srm builds (as streaks got nerfed as well, which was good). Awesome has some disadvantages against Atlas now as they can't run ballistics, so they rely on energy+missile which underperformances.

So... please stop spamming this "support weapon" bs and except that lrms currently are no real thread to anybody. No decent man asks for the way they were in the 48h period. And no decent man is going to base his argument on the tabletop, as this game is a teambased realtime multiplayer shooter/simulation and no turn based game.

Shalune, on 10 November 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

This is the problem. You are trying to ask that LRMs be competitive with other weapons and compare them directly. LRMs fill a unique role which means that these comparisons will naturally be biased towards the LRM or other weapon depending on the scenario you use. Instead we have to gauge viability on whether or not it accomplishes its intended role. You keep talking about LRMs' raw stopping power, but their main role isn't to kill things. It's a slower method of damage that has the unique advantage of accurate indirect fire. Lights spot targets behind the lines for you to hit which leads to 1 of 3 results:

- They stay where they are and die. Exactly as stupid as it sounds, this is why LRMs role really isn't to kill things.

- They retreat to heavy cover. This limits their maneuverability and visibility, allowing your team to make a move. Hey look, suppression!

- They charge your position. This forces them into your own team's line of fire to be killed.

This is why we describe LRMs as support. They create situations that are advantageous to your team, and also rely on the team to be truly effective. If your teammates are (1) not spotting for you (2) not communicating and/or maneuvering when possible (3) not covering you, then yes it's going to suck being the team's LRM boat. Again, your role is support, and your effectiveness is heavily reliant on teamwork. This is going to be very hit and miss in pugs, so if that's a problem I'd recommend another role or more solo-oriented build that combines LRMs with other weaponry.

EDIT: It was suggested that LRMs aren't currently accomplishing any of the 3 points above. However others are posting that they have had the opposite experience dealing large amounts of damage which contributed to victory. Obviously neither side is simply making up these experiences, so in some context it appears LRMs can be effective. It's impossible to tell from conflicting stories exactly what these situations are, but it does support what I've been saying about it being a situational role. I'd credit this to pugs not cooperating.

As a side note it's worth noting that an AMS bubble will negate huge portions of your damage, this is the equivalent of the enemy team retreating to cover. They're limiting their field coverage and maneuverability by sticking together and you can take advantage of this.

Edited by Shalune, 11 November 2012 - 09:55 AM.

[Saltychipmunk]

lrm damage at 2 per missle would have been fine if they needed direct los to fire like they normally should.

the main issue with them was that you could have 90 damage barages from across the map , behind all kinds of cover hitting mechs for huge amounts of damage while direct fire weapons had half the range , needed direct los and are much harder to aim.

and that is where we are at now.
you cannot and should not have both damage and the ability to do indirect fire from long range.
it is either lrms do a **** load of damage and need direct or near direct los
OR
they do less damage but can be fired from nearly anywhere.

its either one or the other.
personally i believe the former would have been better because yes low damage lrms create a new issue in that the weapon is simply damage - weight inefficient.

Edited by Saltychipmunk, 11 November 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

So, what you're saying is, "you are a support mech that requires the support of other mechs to apply damage." You can not tell me that a LRM catapult will do decent damage when your target locks flash on and off constantly. With all the ways to break locks and find cover when LRMs are able to hit their target the damage done is insignificant.

Here's the thing - "With all the ways to break lock"... You already forget that being able to hit a target outside your line of sight is a tremendous benefit. A Gauss Rifle, a PPC or a (ER) Large Laser don't even get to shoot at someone out of sight. You don't see him, you can't hurt him.

In any situation where you can fire a direct fire weapon, your missiles will also hit. Heck, look at SRMs - you can be happy if you hit something within 100m with them - no locking, slow speed, missile spread out...

I definitely see an argument for making LRMs becoming better when using direct fire. Their spread should be tightened and lock speed may even be increased.

But there is no reason for an LRM20 to hit like 2 Gauss Rifles against a target you cannot even see and can't shoot back.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 11 November 2012 - 10:13 AM.

[Saltychipmunk]

exactly, and that is the very root of the issue. Lrms had the longest range in the game ( excluding fall off damage , missles dont have fall off damage)

so long as lrms are able to hit targets from across the map in pretty much absolute safety (excluding other lrms) , you simply cant have it doing large amounts of damage.

[Mavairo]

MustrumRidcully, on 11 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Here's the thing - "With all the ways to break lock"... You already forget that being able to hit a target outside your line of sight is a tremendous benefit. A Gauss Rifle, a PPC or a (ER) Large Laser don't even get to shoot at someone out of sight. You don't see him, you can't hurt him.

In any situation where you can fire a direct fire weapon, your missiles will also hit. Heck, look at SRMs - you can be happy if you hit something within 100m with them - no locking, slow speed, missile spread out...

I definitely see an argument for making LRMs becoming better when using direct fire. Their spread should be tightened and lock speed may even be increased.

But there is no reason for an LRM20 to hit like 2 Gauss Rifles against a target you cannot even see and can't shoot back.

Thank you.

Also, when did you sneak over here? I remember you disappearing from STO

[MustrumRidcully]

Mavairo, on 11 November 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Quote

Also, when did you sneak over here? I remember you disappearing from STO

Didn't we exchange PMs here already? I've been here since August, if not earlier. (don't remember the exact date anymore, just know that I was worried that the game would launch with my Premium Time while I would be visiting the US (GenCon and New York) for 2 weeks... (So much for that...)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 11 November 2012 - 10:30 AM.

[Mavairo]

MustrumRidcully, on 11 November 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

You're welcome.


Didn't we exchange PMs here already? I've been here since August, if not earlier. (don't remember the exact date anymore, just know that I was worried that the game would launch with my Premium Time while I would be visiting the US (GenCon and New York) for 2 weeks... (So much for that...)

Just checked, and yep we have.

[MustrumRidcully]

Mavairo, on 11 November 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Just checked, and yep we have.

You probably just missed me posting, it's not like I write much on forums.

[Mavairo]

MustrumRidcully, on 11 November 2012 - 10:41 AM, said:

You probably just missed me posting, it's not like I write much on forums.

I haven't really been on the forums much since I joined. I've been more active recently. Mostly when I'm watching stuff on netflix.

[Sybreed]

Dorque, on 11 November 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

LRMs soften, other weapons deal killing blows, and I'll stand by that.

Oh, and I bold my text because I like to type the way I speak, stressing important points. The statement is correct regardless of the formatting.

tell me: What kind of "softening" do trial mechs do with their 2 tons of LRM ammo? I hold 5 tons of ammo and have trouble softening up 1, let alone 2 targets. What are trial mechs supposed to do with their pitiful 360 missiles?

[Sybreed]

just to show how bad LRMs are:

On my Cent CN9-A, I dropped the LRM10 for 3 SSRM2. My average dmg per match with this mech went from 280 to 450. On my last game, I got 5 kills, dealt 630 damage. I took a screenshot, but I was in fullscreen so it's all black... meh...

[Justin Xang Allard]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

At random times throughout the beta, I would pick a mech and run out in the open, be spotted, and diesoon afterward to the sky falling on top of my head. At others, I would be the one launching explosive death. I learned that to get away from LRMs you use cover and even powerdown randomly to break targeting locks.

Today, I can sit in my catapult and drop hell on an atlas trudging out in the open with my entire 700+ missiles and not even phase him.

It's quite disheartening to the point that I've even taken all LRMs off my Catapults and replaced them with SRMs or SRM Streaks.... or even removed missiles completely replaced with lasers.. or even dual Gauss (lolgausscat).

My point is that since the LRM nurf, there's really no reason to equip them when other long range weapons deal so much more damage. Oh, and before you say something along the lines of "QQmoar" or "That's all he plays", I have an atlas and yen lo wang that I play quite often.

TL;DR: LRMs have been nurfed too hard.

EDIT: Since there are so many of you that don't care to read through the thread before bashing me because I'm "whining about LRM's not still being broken", I just want to say I'm not. They were broken and op before the hotfix.

For the last time, this isn't a post crying about the needed fix for LRMs. This post is about the hotfix going too far and making them near useless.

I agree with you, i just switched to a non lrm mech, but i miss seeing them in the game. they made things more interesting, but now they are about as good as 4 machine guns.

[Timelordwho]

Sybreed, on 11 November 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

tell me: What kind of "softening" do trial mechs do with their 2 tons of LRM ammo? I hold 5 tons of ammo and have trouble softening up 1, let alone 2 targets. What are trial mechs supposed to do with their pitiful 360 missiles?

612 possible points of damage is a lot of softening.

Realistically, you'll hit 150-300 of that, which is enough to soften up 1-2 meds (3 if coordinate fire) or severely weaken an assault/slow heavy since you can hit more like 200-400 on them.

They aren't missile boats, they are using them as an auxiliary weapon system to keep up pressure when they can't hit with their other weapon systems due to friendly fire or range concerns.

[Shaddock]

On my Atlas I just walked about 800m forward while a cat with 2 x LRM 15s and 4 x LRM 5s laid into me. My armor barely went yellow after multiple salvos. I did have an AMS bt felt no need to make any attempt to avoid the fire,

[Noth]

Shaddock, on 11 November 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

On my Atlas I just walked about 800m forward while a cat with 2 x LRM 15s and 4 x LRM 5s laid into me. My armor barely went yellow after multiple salvos. I did have an AMS bt felt no need to make any attempt to avoid the fire,

In my Catapult such a thing leaves me with red armor on some parts, no armor on others, and yellow on the rest. I still want to get the hell out of the way of those missiles.

[Mavairo]

Shaddock, on 11 November 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

On my Atlas I just walked about 800m forward while a cat with 2 x LRM 15s and 4 x LRM 5s laid into me. My armor barely went yellow after multiple salvos. I did have an AMS bt felt no need to make any attempt to avoid the fire,

So you're in a walking armored beast with the anti missile system and aren't being hurt that bad? Somehow that seems fitting enough. Because lemme tell ya my dragon would be half cut to ribbons if I did that.

[Bryan Kerensky]

Not sure what you're talking about. Dealt 978 damage yesterday while taking down 2 Atlai, a Hunchie and a Cicada. Had some help from team mates but as people have been saying, it's a support weapon, and in that regard I have seen nothing wrong ( although... screen shake back please)

Edited by Bryan Kerensky, 11 November 2012 - 11:27 AM.