791 replies to this topic

[Dren Nas]

Wispsy, on 12 November 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Actually you said you wanted it returned to how it was just before Artemis was introduced. This was completely possible then, I saw it many many times. Well done on your attempt to sidestep once again my point by quoting straw man definitions. To be honest though, even if it was hyperbole, instantly dismissing all that I wrote on a single quote is quite....well I guess I have been caught feeding a troll

Even though so many times they tell me not to feed the trolls I still get caught

I'm tired of arguing against things I haven't said, and I'm not going to do it anymore. Your "hyperbole" changes my argument completely... making me feel as though you're the one trolling. :-/

Well, I'm not going to say they were op before the artimis was introduced, but I will say they were more in line to force people to change their playstyle.... unlike now.

Edited by Dren Nas, 12 November 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[RG Notch]

Only hyperbole or straw men allowed in this thread are those that relate to the 15% reduction in LRM damage making them "useless". If you drop the hyperbolic statements that LRMs are currently "useless" you might get better responses, but I don't think your interested in anything that doesn't agree with your campaign.

[Wispsy]

Valdez Raptor, on 12 November 2012 - 11:50 AM, said:

To counter your argument on this, lighter mechs can solo atlas'. I've seen jenners solo an atlas. Now with the LRM changes, an LRM mech can't solo a lighter mech. Hell, I was on my atlas at a distance, standing there, firing my AC20 at over 2 times my optimal firing range. I took almost no damage from the Cat firing constant LRM's at me, and guess what I did? I popped him. My 1 weapon killed him while his primary weapon didn't even scratch my paint job.

That's a clear indication I can stand out in the open and not even have the slightest concern. When my Short range weapon can out damage his long range weapon at a distance, and not even out damage be more effective, something is dreadfully wrong.

A light mech solos an atlas by not getting hit.

Dren Nas, on 12 November 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

I'm tired of arguing against things I haven't said, and I'm not going to do it anymore. Your "hyperbole" changes my argument completely... making me feel as though you're the one trolling. :-/

Well, I'm not going to say they were op before the artimis was introduced, but I will say they were more in line to force people to change their playstyle.... unlike now.

Ah ha I guess I have replied hastily (perhaps due to the content of my post, yet again being completely completely ignored by you) and made a mistake. I do apologize.
However that one line changes nothing. That was not what my post was about, it was an offhand comment about how lrms were before the patch and how a number of people got used to that playstyle and gameplay. Such a comment surely can be acceptable considering the hyperbole and/or misrepresentation of your initial comment alone. Spending 700 missiles on an atlas in the open and doing nothing....

Still, nice attempt again at deflecting all that has been said back to this single issue.

[Stoicblitzer]

I admit I don't take LRMs anymore but as one of the early posts said. As a support weapon they are indispensable. I am just too good at aiming to waste time waiting for locks and clicking. If you aren't trying to get kills by yourself, then they are still good. They are probably more useful in premade groups where people can maintain a lock instead of pug games where people don't know how to lock.

[Sayeko]

Well they didn't change one thing. They changed 3 at a time. Damage reduction, spread increase and different missile pathing algorithm.

From my observation the effective Ingame damage/missile damage was at least cut in half in compression to pre- nov6.
(2 damage per missile, no artemis, flat trajectory)
Ether by not doing 1.7 damage per missile or hitting only 25% of the time (even if all missiles are actually flying into the target)

Even if all missiles hit a still standing atlas it is impossible to score a higher damage value than 0.7 per missile which is what multiple sources throughout various threads and me personally are seeing right now.


Most of the complaints are not about lrms beeing under or overpowered but rather are about them not functioning as they are supposed to.

Edited by Sayeko, 12 November 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[wanderer]

Sarevos, on 11 November 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

uh you could take aim for a shot while standing still in TT for a large bonus to accuracy much like in mwo and in TT accuracy was determined by a dice roll to represent the pilots skill and luck. if someone is a good shot with a laser he'd "roll" hits all day. In mwo many times the slightest bump or movement causes you to skim around to other components spreading the damage and point blank with srms how can they miss? its not impossible in TT as rolling well scored critical hits to represent good fortune and amazing skill if someone has those qualities IRL then it should be possible for him to use his skill with direct-fire weapons

Standing still in TT was +0 to hit- that is, it did nothing for upping your chances to hit the target, but it didn't reduce them. On the other hand, in MWO even a newb can pump large laser fire into a target at 450m while standing still and not even miss once- a shot an "average" Mechwarrior in TT will miss more than half the time. Never mind aimed shots, which up that kind of shot to hideously horrible odds at range even on a stationary target with a stationary firing platform and take a massive targeting computer system to even try!

[GioAvanti]

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

(EDIT: Stop beating a dead horse. This post is not someone crying about wanting LRMs back to what they were when they were bugged for 48 hours. That horse is dead, and has nothing to do with my reasoning for the following post. Bury it, move on, and stop saying that's what I'm asking for because it isn't.)

At random times throughout the beta, I would pick a mech and run out in the open, be spotted, and diesoon afterward to the sky falling on top of my head. At others, I would be the one launching explosive death. I learned that to get away from LRMs you use cover and even powerdown randomly to break targeting locks.

Today, I can sit in my catapult and drop hell on an atlas trudging out in the open with my entire 700+ missiles and not even phase him.

It's quite disheartening to the point that I've even taken all LRMs off my Catapults and replaced them with SRMs or SRM Streaks.... or even removed missiles completely replaced with lasers.. or even dual Gauss (lolgausscat).

My point is that since the LRM nurf, there's really no reason to equip them when other long range weapons deal so much more damage. Oh, and before you say something along the lines of "QQmoar" or "That's all he plays", I have an atlas and yen lo wang that I play quite often.

TL;DR: LRMs have been nurfed too hard.

EDIT: Since there are so many of you that don't care to read through the thread before bashing me because I'm "whining about LRM's not still being broken", I just want to say I'm not. They were broken and op before the hotfix.

For the last time, this isn't a post crying about the needed fix for LRMs. This post is about the hotfix going too far and making them near useless.

Ummm if you dropped 700 LRMs into an Atlas and you did not phase him; that's an impossibility.

That should drop 2 atlases.... an Atlas only has 400 points of armor.

[GioAvanti]

PS- we got a lot of lying and BSing in this thread... it should be shot down. Like people saying they don't take damage from LRMs anymore.....

What a bunch of FOTM fools you are.

[Dren Nas]

Wispsy, on 12 November 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

A light mech solos an atlas by not getting hit.




Ah ha I guess I have replied hastily (perhaps due to the content of my post, yet again being completely completely ignored by you) and made a mistake. I do apologize.
However that one line changes nothing. That was not what my post was about, it was an offhand comment about how lrms were before the patch and how a number of people got used to that playstyle and gameplay. Such a comment surely can be acceptable considering the hyperbole and/or misrepresentation of your initial comment alone. Spending 700 missiles on an atlas in the open and doing nothing....

Still, nice attempt again at deflecting all that has been said back to this single issue.

Sayeko, on 12 November 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

Well they didn't change one thing. They changed 3 at a time. Damage reduction, spread increase and different missile pathing algorithm.

From my observation the effective Ingame damage/missile damage was at least cut in half in compression to pre- nov6.
(2 damage per missile, no artemis, flat trajectory)
Ether by not doing 1.7 damage per missile or hitting only 25% of the time (even if all missiles are actually flying into the target)

Even if all missiles hit a still standing atlas it is impossible to score a higher damage value than 0.7 per missile which is what multiple sources throughout various threads and me personally are seeing right now.


Most of the complaints are not about lrms beeing under or overpowered but rather are about them not functioning as they are supposed to.

This what what people are seeing.

Yes, missiles don't blow you up in one salvo anymore(good thing), but the point remains if a weapon system is mostly ignored as a viable threat why use it?

I have turned my LRM catapult into a ER large laser catapult and snipe at a distance. I do more damage on average with this new build than I did on average with my lrm20s with higher survivability and infinite ammo... and I don't need my target to actually have a redbox to deal my damage(hooray 4x zoom).

[G4M3R]

LRMs are still very useful ... you just have to play better with a team to use it well. You can't solo with LRMs is all.

It's perfect the way it is.

[Dren Nas]

GioAvanti, on 12 November 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Ummm if you dropped 700 LRMs into an Atlas and you did not phase him; that's an impossibility.

That should drop 2 atlases.... an Atlas only has 400 points of armor.

Exactly. It should, but currently that many missiles do not bring one down due to nurfed missile spread, damage, and flight path.

[Faldrin]

GioAvanti, on 12 November 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Ummm if you dropped 700 LRMs into an Atlas and you did not phase him; that's an impossibility.

That should drop 2 atlases.... an Atlas only has 400 points of armor.

700 LRMs don't all hit the target now fire 2x LRM20 at a atlas in the open at 300+ and watch half or more hit around the target. And that is if he is standing still with no AMS. Now if you add it moving at a very slow speed 40+ even more miss add a AMS and you will be lucky if 10 hit the target out of 40 missiles. sorry but at 20 tons just for 2 LRM 20 with out ammo that is bad as a support weapon. My cat now rocks 3 LL and do better fire support by a giant leap and target shooting is easy as pie.

LRMs are great damage......on paper. In use they suck. My 3 LL cat can tank them and still kill a target.

[Salient]

Learn to shoot a damn gun, this game feels much better now. EZ mode lrms boats needed a nerf bat for the longest time.

[Dren Nas]

Salient, on 12 November 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Learn to shoot a damn gun, this game feels much better now. EZ mode lrms boats needed a nerf bat for the longest time.

I just stated last page that I do better damage at range with ER lasers. Try to keep up.

[Choombatta]

Salient, on 12 November 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

Learn to shoot a damn gun, this game feels much better now. EZ mode lrms boats needed a nerf bat for the longest time.

The crux of the problem, IMHO.
This is NOT Call of Duty. You do not shoot "damn gun"s in this game.
You pilot large walking tanks with large ordinance.

If the majority of your fighting is taking place under 200m, you are doing it wrong.

[Tuku]

LRMs are suport weaponry...they are made to cover pushes forward and soften up targets who are moving in toward your position so that others. I consistantly see LRM boats putting out 5 or so hundred damage a match and if their team is decent and they move from time to time they dont die.


I dont see the problem with LRMs

[Dren Nas]

Tuku, on 12 November 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

LRMs are suport weaponry...they are made to cover pushes forward and soften up targets who are moving in toward your position so that others. I consistantly see LRM boats putting out 5 or so hundred damage a match and if their team is decent and they move from time to time they dont die.


I dont see the problem with LRMs

Since when, in all the time of warfare has "support weaponry" been considered weak?

If anything, support weaponry is stronger than the average close range weapon. The drawback being easier to disrupt/destroy at close range, slow movement, and having to rely on spotters for accuracy. (think artillery vs machine gun)

[Dorque]

Choombatta, on 12 November 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

The crux of the problem, IMHO.
This is NOT Call of Duty. You do not shoot "damn gun"s in this game.
You pilot large walking tanks with large ordinance.

If the majority of your fighting is taking place under 200m, you are doing it wrong.

I don't believe that, otherwise there would not be a fair selection of weaponry with optimal range inside 200m.

Mechs are designed to play different roles. Long-range Mechs are long-range, short-range Mechs are short-range and it's very much an RPS system, at least in theory, and especially in an urban environment. BT lore is absolutely full of Mechs that are skilled urban brawlers because a lot of wars involve cities, caves, etc.

This isn't COD but it also isn't Artillery Duel/Scorched Earth/Worms/Soldat, depending on what era you're from.

Edited by Dorque, 12 November 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[Wispsy]

Dren Nas, on 12 November 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

This what what people are seeing.

And many people are seeing the exact opposite. Many people are putting out fine damage and killing things with their lrms. I have not had this problem with being unable to kill an atlas with my lrm 20 on a raven. I have killed many, some solo/almost all solo, with ams as it is on stock right now which I had to burn through first and sometimes multiple ams.
What is more your main point is that lrms are not competitve. They are, they are just not in the role you wish them to be. The reasons you believe they are not, are addressed in my other post, which you have ignored and refused to read.

[Dren Nas]

Wispsy, on 12 November 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

And many people are seeing the exact opposite. Many people are putting out fine damage and killing things with their lrms. I have not had this problem with being unable to kill an atlas with my lrm 20 on a raven. I have killed many, some solo/almost all solo, with ams as it is on stock right now which I had to burn through first and sometimes multiple ams.
What is more your main point is that lrms are not competitve. They are, they are just not in the role you wish them to be. The reasons you believe they are not, are addressed in my other post, which you have ignored and refused to read.

yes... a weapon that does about 1/3rd of it's possible damage as real damage at best and requires copious amounts of space (ammo included) is balanced.