791 replies to this topic

[Alexander Kerensky]

Dorque, on 12 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

The point you're absolutely missing here is that they're not valued for killing people; they're valued because they soften targets for the pinpoint shooters.

This is the problem. As it stands, LRMs cannot accomplish anything that a pair of gauss rifles strapped to the sides of the same support chassis can't accomplish quicker, more accurately, and cheaper. Minutes of firing LRMs can indeed soften up a target, or I can "soften" the same target by putting multiple slugs into its torso in under 15 seconds, and make considerably more credits on salvage post-game.

This is the problem. I have no issue with fire support weapons being true fire support weapons, but the concept of dedicated fire support falls flat on its face when more direct and cost-effective options are more effective from the moment a match begins to the moment it ends.

As far as suppression fire goes, you can't suppress anything when the target knows that the bottle rockets bouncing off of their mech will require half an entire ammo payload to cause any sort of discernible damage.

[Kaziganthi]

Wispsy, on 12 November 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

Total side note.
Just realised seen as you were so focused on total accuracy. Even the lowest damage estimates would have an atlas cored within 700 missiles. To say it does not "phase" him is clearly untrue....
Being super pedantic is fun right?!

Just played a game..

Mian point of focus an Atlas in the watr on forect colony be swarmed by 3 lights on my side, I'm up on a hill in my Cat with twin LRM 15's and 10's (50 missiles on an alpha strike). With those 3 circling abling to keep los I was able to fire off 600 rounds of ammo at said Atlas. I think I got lucky and got the killing shot. Now, I'll point out, no missiles hit terain, and some were shot down by AMS, so even with 50% misssiles taken out by AMS, that should give me a damge of 300.

Now we move onto nect target and so on and so on. By end of game I've fired over 1000 missiles and got 4 assists.

So at end of game, 1 kill, 4 assists and over 1000 missiles used. What did I end up with for final damage, 259.

So where is the issue I wonder where I can hit with a minimum 300 on an atlas, yet still do less damage, not even taking into account the damage I did on other mechs.

Edited by Kaziganthi, 12 November 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[Valdez Raptor]

Kaziganthi, on 12 November 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

Just played a game..

Mian point of focus an Atlas in the watr on forect colony be swarmed by 3 lights on my side, I'm up on a hill in my Cat with twin LRM 15's and 10's (50 missiles on an alpha strike). With those 3 circling abling to keep los I was able to fire off 600 rounds of ammo at said Atlas. I think I got lucky and got the killing shot. Now, I'll point out, no missiles hit terain, and some were shot down by AMS, so even with 50% misssiles taken out by AMS, that should give me a damge of 300.

Now we move onto nect target and so on and so on. By end of game I've fired over 1000 missiles and got 4 assists.

So at end of game, 1 kill, 4 assists and over 1000 missiles used. What did I end up with for final damage, 259.

So where is the issue I wonder where I can hit with a minimum 300 on an atlas, yet still do less damage, not even taking into account the damage I did on other mechs.

To be fair I think an AMS wouldn't shoot down half of the missles. I was at my atlas one time and I saw a guy firing an LRM 10 at me, and I watched my AMS take out 7 to 8 missles at a time. So if he had a single AMS and no support he'd only take out 8 to 16 missiles at best depending on the time spread to hit that atlas. So at best he took out 16 to 32% of your missiles. So that makes your under 300 damage even more wrong.

P.S. I no longer have my AMS on since currently LRM's don't even bother me.

[Revorn]

Valdez Raptor, on 12 November 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

P.S. I no longer have my AMS on since currently LRM's don't even bother me.

Exact this is the Problem, Support Role, ok, Suspression Fire, ok. But how to Supoort our Frontline-Guys in their tough Work, with an Weapon that dont bother anyone?

[Kaijin]

JohanssenJr, on 12 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

There is a difference between Infantry destroyed and Artillery destroyed. In the infantry, a target is destroyed if it is dead or incapacitated. In the Artillery, we consider a target destroyed if it is at a 70% loss of fighting ability. Our Paladins are meant to soften up targets or as area denial, not complete destruction of the target as we cannot even see what we target.

LRMs are an indirect fire capable weapon, dealing area damage and area suppression. Not for ROFLstomping people in cover. If I get brave(read: dumb) enough to cross open terrain in anything going slower than 90kph, I 9 times of 10 get curbstomped by the ensuing LRM storm.

So if you could see your target, then it would be better than a 70% loss of fighting ability? I'm all for leaving LRMs nerfed for IF, but if I've got LOS on a target myself, I'm thinking I ought to be able to pulverize it pretty well.

Edited by Kaijin, 13 November 2012 - 01:23 AM.

[MWHawke]

Looks like a To-Hit issue rather than damage. They have made missiles miss more often, similar to Streaks.

[Tuoweit]

Dren Nas, on 12 November 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

So, you're either saying i'm unethically logging into multiple accounts and posting to further my argument.

Or you tried to twist my words, were caught, and now you belittle other posters and myself in an attempt to discredit us since your argument was a strawman. (http://www.urbandict...erm=straw%20man)

Or, I didn't notice the actual names of the posters because I pay attention to the arguments and not who is posting them, and made a genuine mistake. I apologized, don't know what else you want.

[Tuoweit]

For those using the end-of-match damage counts as a reference, I'll point out that I HAVE noticed inaccurate damage results in the past, but that was during the infamous "2 day window" - nonsensical tallies like LRM boats getting multiple kills but 0 damage. I haven't seen such bad discrepancies since the following patch, but there might still be some bugs with the accounting.

[Dren Nas]

MWHawke, on 13 November 2012 - 02:24 AM, said:

Looks like a To-Hit issue rather than damage. They have made missiles miss more often, similar to Streaks.

Missile damage might be fine atm if they fix missile hit rate. I've been wondering if fixing it would be what is really needed.

[197mmCannon]

Noth, on 10 November 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

What I'm saying, you are a support mech that allows his team mates to kill faster without putting themselves in immediate danger. If damage done is insignificant why do I see so many people get absolutely trashed by LRMs for not finding cover?

Because your just saying that for the sake of arguing. It sounds great but it's not true.

I played a pug on caustic 2 days ago where both teams were completely out in the open circle strafing each other. Looked like some jacked up bumper cars arena. Funniest **** I've seen in this game yet.

While I admit it was fun, that only happened because no one cares about LRMs anymore. There's hardly anyone running LRMs and even if there is one guy trying to boat most of his missiles die to AMS and the rest just do little knicks.

Edited by Daemian, 13 November 2012 - 08:47 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Quoted from Battletech Wiki on the LRMcarrier Tank

Quote

Armament

While its chassis is identical to its SRM counterpart, the LRM Carrier mounts three LRM-20 launchers in its turret. Quikscell utilize FarFire brand launchers, but carriers produced by other manufacturers frequently use the launchers common to their House of origin, such as DeltaDart LRMs in the Federated Suns or Shigunga in the Draconis Combine. A barrage fired from a missile carrier is a fearsome sight and four tons of ammunition allow a carrier to keep up that rate of fire up for over a minute, but forces carriers to be tied to a functioning supply system to keep them in action for any extended period.

Does this sound like we should have NERFed LRMs to you?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 November 2012 - 08:57 AM.

[Wispsy]

Dren Nas, on 13 November 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

Missile damage might be fine atm if they fix missile hit rate. I've been wondering if fixing it would be what is really needed.

Use tag

[Joseph Mallan]

Or Narc... not as effective as it could/should be but hey an advantage is an advantage.

[Wispsy]

Would be nice if they changed narc to keep the target targeted for the 15 seconds now.

[XvDraxvX]

Wispsy, on 13 November 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Use tag

Tag Requires LOS, so does Artemis. Your answer should be to tell your team to mount and use Tag. People wont, but you should at least word this correctly.

Now if your saying the LRM Mech should mount tag then thats another story. Again tag needs LOS, So does Artemis. I should not have to slap on 2-4 tons of gear to do "decent" damage....

The Most a LRM Mech should have to mount to do more damage should be Artemis.

People hated it when i told them to just mount AMS when they thought missiles were OP..... of course AMS is only 1.5 tons Artemis is 1 ton per launcher plus the Ammo costs more.... not really the same.

Edited by XvDraxvX, 13 November 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[Dren Nas]

Wispsy, on 13 November 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

Use tag

Because that actually works.

EDIT: Yes, it is sarcasm.

Edited by Dren Nas, 13 November 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[Wispsy]

XvDraxvX, on 13 November 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

Tag Requires LOS, so does Artemis. Your answer should be to tell your team to mount and use Tag. People wont, but you should at least word this correctly.

Now if your saying the LRM Mech should mount tag then thats another story. Again tag needs LOS, So does Artemis. I should not have to slap on 2-4 tons of gear to do "decent" damage....

The Most a LRM Mech should have to mount to do more damage should be Artemis.

People hated it when i told them to just mount AMS when they thought missiles were OP..... of course AMS is only 1.5 tons Artemis is 1 ton per launcher plus the Ammo costs more.... not really the same.

People hated it because it was 1.5tons+ and changed nothing.

Yes tag requires los. If you are running solo and unsupported with lrms there are going to be plenty of times you wish to guarantee your missiles hit i.e. as you see a scout coming at you, without needing to call for team support.
Should untagged missiles be the end of all scouts? Well that would encourage nothing but turtling and tag would be useless.

Now if you happen to be running with a brawler friend, encourage him to use tag. You will both benefit greatly. If you are running with 2 lrmers and a light then encourage that light mech to use tag and go keep targets on people. In these situations you can freely rain on people with accuracy out of los and do significant damage, and as I have said it is very focused at the ct.

The problem most people seem to be having here is they cannot seem to do meaningful damage to targets in the open in pugs as their missiles miss. Yet they refuse to swap 1medlas for 1tag to then hit with the majority of missiles in one place......As they already have los. The increased spread without los or team tag support is perfectly fine when firing on targets at great ranges or out of los, that is practically what many people wanted lrms to be.....

With los you can tag they will not miss and they will hurt people badly with almost all damage going to torso. Out of los or extended range with no team support they will splatter over more of the mech and their damage will be less effective, yet still kills mechs not all that slowly. The MISSILE INCOMING message is brilliant for suppressing fire, you can send an lrm 5 (for example) at one person and then a full salvo at somebody nearby. The person who has an lrm5 coming at them will hide from the swarm of missiles they see, as will the other person if they have any sense.

Why the hell are you running an lrm mech without the one ton laser purely designed to make your missiles more accurate when you have los.

Dren Nas, on 13 November 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Because that actually works.

EDIT: Yes, it is sarcasm.

Clearly you have never tested it. Yet you post so much on the balance of lrms.....oh wait you also did not know that reacquiring locks retracks targets....
So tell me, how often did you really use lrms? Please...do not say it was a lot :/

[MaddMaxx]

Not sure about the ned for the damage reduction, albeit only 15%, but with Artemis allowed without direct LOS, it seems reasonable they toned down that system some. No reason they can't tweak the Artemis system more with time to perhaps tighten up the grouping again given the new 1.7 damage value now in play.

And I find it more than just total exaggeration when someone claims that "700+ missiles fired Atlas that is lumbering across out in the open is not something that Pilot has to even worry about."

It just invalidates the posters point totally imho.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 13 November 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[8Ball-]

As far as I've seen LRM's are pretty much worthless now. In about 20 drops last night I saw very few LRM carriers. When I tagged, no missles came. Almost every drop was a brawl rush to the other base. If you can completely ignore them then they aren't doing as much as they're suppose to do. Looks to me that they need a couple tenths of damage added back on. In my 130kph Jenner, as long as I kept moving, not a single missle hit me. And 50% of streaks missing is complete BS. Maybe on dumbfire missles but locked missles at short range, no way. If streak cats are that big of a problem then they should nerf multiple launchers in some way, not make the whole weapon system useless. Perhaps heat stacking on boated builds or something.

[Dren Nas]

Wispsy, on 13 November 2012 - 09:31 AM, said:

Clearly you have never tested it. Yet you post so much on the balance of lrms.....oh wait you also did not know that reacquiring locks retracks targets....
So tell me, how often did you really use lrms? Please...do not say it was a lot :/

I believe I have preciously mentioned that my regular group runs with a commando that would support our LRM guy. He would carry a NARC and a TAG before we stopped using missiles.

Let's see.... here it is!

Dren Nas, on 10 November 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

But LRMs aren't forcing people to retreat, charge, or change their gameplay at the moment. I normally roll with a lance of 3 to 4 people. 1 light mech, a LRM catapult (which we're beginning to move away from now), and 1 to 2 other random mechs depending on how my group feels at that perticular moment. We have a dedicated ventrilo server. The guy playing the light mech isn't the bestest ever, but he's decent, and he holds a spot.... uses a narc... and even the laser pointer.

SO we seem to have all 3 of your requirements fulfilled to have a successful LRM mech.... and yes, the LRM catapult is still coming up short since the LRM nurf.

I want to make a snide remark in response to your "So tell me, how often did you really use lrms? Please...do not say it was a lot." I'm going to just