234 replies to this topic

[MWHawke]

Asmosis, on 12 November 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

um no. fast light units taking out slow heavy units IS the natural order of things. Go take a look at EVE online. Assult class mechs bring brute force to take down anything slow enough not to evade them. one on one, a light *should* kill an assult mech assuming they are equally skilled.

However, put two assult mechs vs 4 light mechs and the two assults should win, provided they use proper positioning.

This is MW, not EVE. If the assault lands an alpha strike on a light mech, shouldn't it disintegrate?

[wanderer]

MWHawke, on 12 November 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

This is MW, not EVE. If the assault lands an alpha strike on a light mech, shouldn't it disintegrate?

It should take a pounding. The problem at the moment being that lights lagshield, reducing damage dealt.

When I hit a standing still light with a barrage, they tend to fall apart in short order.

[Sephlock]

You mean they end to take off at a kajilion miles an hour, laughing as you hit them with alpha after alpha and overheat

[MWHawke]

Agree to both your posts above.

[Like a Sir]

You typed up my exact thoughts, that I didn't have type to put in writing myself... Internets to you, and you bring up valid points all the way across. Oh yeah, I pilot assaults, I want to test actual double heat sinks please.

Oh and there might not be too many complaint threads, because a lot of us quit. Not because of the heatsinks, but because of the damn client crashing bug that is noted in the known issues. It's too frustrating to play the game, that crashes you to desktop 4 times an hour, in the middle of the fight.

Also, I read all 8 pages of this, and I learned what someone else pointed out: You can lead the horse to the water, but you have to lift up his tail and suck on his b hole to get it to drink.

Edited by Like a Sir, 12 November 2012 - 07:42 PM.

[MCXL]

If you read my post (link in sig) you will see that that SHS should actually do 2.0 per 10, and DHS should do 4.0 per 10.

[Elizander]

Bubba Wilkins, on 12 November 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Still, even at a full 2.0, we are a long way from a Heat Neutral kill-all build existing.

I believe that the current design goal is to never have such a thing. I don't mind it though.

[ArmyOfWon]

I wonder if Garth just happened to experience the "sudden engine crit bug" when he was bragging about coring an Atlas in <3 seconds....

So, stock Atlas center torso rear has 28 armor (20 if you core a -K side torso), plus engine hp (15, according to the ItemStats.xml), so he would have to do 43 damage in a span of 2 alphas, about 3 seconds (first shot, cooldown, second shot).

so, to do that, you would have to have an alpha of at least 22 damage. Let's take the Jenner-F. 6 energy hardpoints would give you the option to load 4 small lasers (12 damage) and 2 medium lasers (10) for your 22 damage. Generates 16 heat per alpha, with only 4 tons used. So with weapons (4 tons), Structure (3.5 assuming standard), Armor (let's armor him up, all 238 points of armor, rounded to 7.5 tons), and the engine (260 standard or 300 XL with 4 more heat sinks) brings him up to 35 tons (give or take .5 tons).

With the 300 XL installed, he would have 14 heat sinks, or 1.4 hps dissipated with singles, and a maximum heat capacity of 44. So, let's have him run into the battle (2 heat), alpha once (16 heat, brings to 18), cool off for 4 seconds (5.6 heat dissipated, heat down to 12.4), alpha again, killing the atlas (16 heat again, up to 28.4, only 65% on his heat readout, although the beam duration did dissipate heat, so at the end of the alpha he would only have 27 heat total, the highest he would go would be 61%) and he can run away. And that's with SINGLES. He'll cool that off in a few seconds and the enemy has one less atlas.

Of course, that is assuming perfect piloting skill, but I'm sure Garth has super accurate aim .

Point is, you can core an atlas with singles in a light if your'e awesome, assuming that the rear center torso takes all of your damage. You can bump up the heat sink number even moreso if you use endo-steel as well (although in a Jenner, you would only get 1 or 2 more). I wonder why no one is yelling "Endo-steel is OP!"....

[Rifter]

ArmyOfWon, on 12 November 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

I wonder if Garth just happened to experience the "sudden engine crit bug" when he was bragging about coring an Atlas in <3 seconds....

So, stock Atlas center torso rear has 28 armor (20 if you core a -K side torso), plus engine hp (15, according to the ItemStats.xml), so he would have to do 43 damage in a span of 2 alphas, about 3 seconds (first shot, cooldown, second shot).

so, to do that, you would have to have an alpha of at least 22 damage. Let's take the Jenner-F. 6 energy hardpoints would give you the option to load 4 small lasers (12 damage) and 2 medium lasers (10) for your 22 damage. Generates 16 heat per alpha, with only 4 tons used. So with weapons (4 tons), Structure (3.5 assuming standard), Armor (let's armor him up, all 238 points of armor, rounded to 7.5 tons), and the engine (260 standard or 300 XL with 4 more heat sinks) brings him up to 35 tons (give or take .5 tons).

With the 300 XL installed, he would have 14 heat sinks, or 1.4 hps dissipated with singles, and a maximum heat capacity of 44. So, let's have him run into the battle (2 heat), alpha once (16 heat, brings to 18), cool off for 4 seconds (5.6 heat dissipated, heat down to 12.4), alpha again, killing the atlas (16 heat again, up to 28.4, only 65% on his heat readout, although the beam duration did dissipate heat, so at the end of the alpha he would only have 27 heat total, the highest he would go would be 61%) and he can run away. And that's with SINGLES. He'll cool that off in a few seconds and the enemy has one less atlas.

Of course, that is assuming perfect piloting skill, but I'm sure Garth has super accurate aim .

Point is, you can core an atlas with singles in a light if your'e awesome, assuming that the rear center torso takes all of your damage. You can bump up the heat sink number even moreso if you use endo-steel as well (although in a Jenner, you would only get 1 or 2 more). I wonder why no one is yelling "Endo-steel is OP!"....

You forgot to take into acount the structure hitpoints.

[ArmyOfWon]

Rifter, on 12 November 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

You forgot to take into acount the structure hitpoints.

Well, how does the game treat structure hp vs item hp? I seem to always have my items (engines included) die long before my structure takes any damage at all.

[Rifter]

ArmyOfWon, on 12 November 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

Well, how does the game treat structure hp vs item hp? I seem to always have my items (engines included) die long before my structure takes any damage at all.

I dont know, i know how TT does it but since they doubled armor im sure they also changed the structure points as well since in TT armor and structure were linked.

Perhaps someone can hack the game files and let us know what the CT structure of a atlas is.

[Amechwarrior]

Rifter, on 12 November 2012 - 10:24 PM, said:

Perhaps someone can hack the game files and let us know what the CT structure of a atlas is.

Make an atlas with no rear CT armor. Shoot it 3 times with a single ERPPCs and then 1 small laser, if it has the TT level 31 internals it will die. If it lives because the values are doubled, you should be able to shoot it 2 more times with the ERPPC and then 3 times with the small laser and it should die on the last shot for precisely 62 damage. This assumes the small laser is dealing 100% of it's damage to the rear CT and you don't die from engine crits.

Edited by Amechwarrior, 12 November 2012 - 10:32 PM.

[SpiralRazor]

Garth ummm.....made a really, really poor statement.


Thats what I think, as its not possible unless he was in cheat mode or that Atlas had no rear armor.

[ArmyOfWon]

Amechwarrior, on 12 November 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Make an atlas with no rear CT armor. Shoot it 3 times with a single ERPPCs and then 1 small laser, if it has the TT level 31 internals it will die. If it lives because the values are doubled, you should be able to shoot it 2 more times with the ERPPC and then 3 times with the small laser and it should die on the last shot for precisely 62 damage. This assumes the small laser is dealing 100% of it's damage to the rear CT and you don't die from engine crits.

I was more referring to how item hp worked, and how it worked into internal structure damage. If an armorless section got damaged, how do the items inside get damaged (in MWO).

All of the items have a "health" variable. I would assume that, at the moment, items take damage from shots, instead of failing from criticals, but I may be mistaken.

[Amechwarrior]

I am under the impression (though this might be wrong) that any time you take internal damage, the damage is applies to the sections internal HP (the 62 hp for the Atlas CT I used in my earlier example) and has a chance to roll for critical hits on the equipment stored inside. If it also scores a crit, the weapons damage is also applied to the one internal item that was selected to be hit. Each item has 10hp, exception of engines with 15hp. This critical hit can also be multiplied by 1,2 or 3x power based on the crit roll, but I am unsure if this also multiplies the damage done to the internal structure. My personal feeling is no, it did not, or at least not previously. But with this new patch, something feels different and no one has yet to conclusively figure out what it is.

[Rifter]

SpiralRazor, on 12 November 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Garth ummm.....made a really, really poor statement.


Thats what I think, as its not possible unless he was in cheat mode or that Atlas had no rear armor.

He didnt make a poor statement he outright lied, and since he isnt backing up his statements with any facts or explanation it sure isnt helping his cause any.

He could have at least said they made a huge mistake and that he only accomplished what he did due to the internal structure having 0 hp bug that was introduced last patch, as that at least makes sense as to what he described.

But still doesnt explain the fact that in 3 seconds SHS or DHS are going to be completly irrelivent as to what a jenner can do for damage.

[ArmyOfWon]

Amechwarrior, on 12 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

I am under the impression (though this might be wrong) that any time you take internal damage, the damage is applies to the sections internal HP (the 62 hp for the Atlas CT I used in my earlier example) and has a chance to roll for critical hits on the equipment stored inside. If it also scores a crit, the weapons damage is also applied to the one internal item that was selected to be hit. Each item has 10hp, exception of engines with 15hp. This critical hit can also be multiplied by 1,2 or 3x power based on the crit roll, but I am unsure if this also multiplies the damage done to the internal structure. My personal feeling is no, it did not, or at least not previously. But with this new patch, something feels different and no one has yet to conclusively figure out what it is.

Hmm... if critical hits were introduced parallel to tabletop (2 hits to KO a weapon like the Gauss, 3 hits to KO an engine), then shouldn't it be 5 damage per critical slot hit, across the board, opposed to dependent on weapon damage?

[Jalon Sabir]

fxrsniper, on 12 November 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Excuse you no one in our group are idiots I dont thinks its very nice to refer to people that you know nothing about as idiots we are HHoD we dont tolerate people like you

Thank you for your posts, laughter has helped me wake up for college.


We've seen now that 2.0 EHS aren't breaking the game. PGI let us test 2.0 sinks outside the engine and see if it breaks the game. Hint: It won't it'll just bring some more weapons into play and increase variety, we'll start seeing PPCs and such.

Honestly, let *us* test it. Whatever you say about your internal tests, let's realtalk here a second. 30 seconds of competent testing would have found that LRM arc bug. Not even a specific test would have been necessary, just a single internal match where someone had LRMs. Assuming this 2.0 EHS thing isn't intentionally put in to see what happens, this is the second time you've had EHS get through your internal testing not working as they should, which again, any competent test would have found. Heatsink values have been changed? Yes sir I'll jump on our internal test server and load up a mech with the developer console, oh hey something's wrong here. That's a few minutes, tops.

Just let us do it.

[Marzepans]

Has nobody noticed the Jenners running about with 4 M Lasers and 2 SSRMs alpha striking continually without ever getting much beyond 60% of their heat threshold? They are all over the place and loving the DHS.

[elbloom]

yeah i noticed, i drive a 6mlas jenner and do mostly top damage in my team, this just isn´t right.... wotever this is a problem of engine DHS 2.0 or lagshield or both, it needs a fix.