3696 replies to this topic

[DeathofSelf]

Soy, on 14 November 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Who said anything about auto aiming or armor regen?!

It provides an unfair advantage for people who would include it in their play as opposed to those who out of their own naivety or stubborness don't include it in their play. The key word in your last sentence was want.

Let me phrase it to this since a lot of people in this thread run off the theory cliff with concepts - if 3pv was implemented without being cheesed then how is that a bad thing? Because of the immersiveness? Trying to box this game into individuals sense of what immersiveness is asinine for PGI. Everybody has different perspectives on what immersiveness is to begin with. Just like keeping everything under exact TT mechanics would be, it's futile to limit design that way.

No one did, I was illustrating the fact that just because it would be beneficial to everyone does not mean it is good for the game.

Ok, so you have basically just stated that you don't care that most people don't want it and you don't care that 3rd person provides the advantage. And that those of us who want to play in first person can just deal with the unfair advantage cause we are too stubborn? Wow, how very self absorbed.

"The key word in your last sentence was want." How is that any different than you wanting 3rd person?

I think the consensus is pretty clear as to what most of us feel is immersion in regards to 3rd person versus 1st person views

[arkani]

Robofragosaurus, on 14 November 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

I have played Mechwarrior since Mechwarrior, I love it because it is a simulation.
I feel first-person cockpit view is the perfect perspective for a simulation.
I believe that other perspectives would create more problems than benefits.
I would like to see more development in the Mech-Lab however. Adding free-look feature with rotate, pan and zoom.
Perhaps drop some technicians and equipment into the mechbay to create a sense of scale.

Yes, this is my first post.

This first post a player makes is to say no.
Another great feedback for the devs.

[IceSerpent]

StrogginOff, on 14 November 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

Moderators, please delete posts like this. This kind of response really doesn't add to the discussion. This person could of gone in to the details as to why it's the "worst idea ever" but was way too lazy to do so.

Dude, do you really need yet another in-depth explanation after this topic has been covered multiple times just on these forums for almost a whole friggin' year? Not to mention that there have been dozens of explanations posted just today and that it's been also covered in regards to older MW games for over a friggin' decade. How many times do you need us to repeat the same exact thing before you get it? We are already way past 100 times doing that just on MWO forums.

[Dukov Nook]

Omni Tek, on 14 November 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

I love how your all complaining here instead of where you should be.

I love how you point this out yet fail to say where that 'should be' is..

[Assiah]

Build an in game tutorial for new players, don't waste time adding 3rd person view.

It is a bad idea and kills the simulation feel.

[plodder]

No "Out Of The Body" experience for MWO.....There are ways to cheat in that mode, or view in a way of cheating.

[Minos Murdoc]

3rd Person for spectator = ok
3rd Person for game = NO ******* WAY

I've heard this from a lot of people playing "if introduced will stop playing", might be taking it too far but i know i wont be playing as much if they did.

3rd person has no place in a Simulator/simulation (i've working in simulation industry long enough), its also a case of "i can't pilot my mech, hang on let me turn on easy mode/3rd person"

[RG Notch]

Soy, on 14 November 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Who said anything about auto aiming or armor regen?!

It provides an advantage for people who would include it in their play as opposed to those who out of their own naivety or stubborness don't include it in their play. The key word in your last sentence was want.

Let me phrase it to this since a lot of people in this thread run off the theory cliff with concepts - if 3pv was implemented without being cheesed then how is that a bad thing? Seriously. Lets hypothesize that 3pv is put in where it is not broken and abused. Is it ok at this point? Or not? Because of the immersiveness? Trying to box this game into individuals sense of what immersiveness is asinine for PGI. Everybody has different perspectives on what immersiveness is to begin with. Just like keeping everything under exact TT mechanics would be, it's futile to limit design that way.

The actual more important question is who in their right minds thinks that this team can pull off balanced 3rd person in a reasonable time? I wouldn't care if it was non cheese but if you think PGI can handle that in a reasonable timeframe I don't know why you have that belief.

[Khavi Vetali]

Constructive Feedback---Repost from internal forums.

Quote

First, PGI's stated reasoning for adding a third person viewpoint is to assist new players in learning the movement and targeting mechanics of Mechwarrior Online, something that could be accomplished by simply having a playable tutorial. It is completely unnecessary to add a third person viewpoint. The new player experience is sorely lacking in MWO right now, but adding a third person viewpoint is not a good way to solve it. There are better ways. Many have been detailed in the thread that I linked.

In addition, adding a third person view runs counter to everything the devs had said on the subject, and what many people have been expecting from MWO. I quote, "We want the player to feel they are not just the mech, they are the pilot inside the mech."

Subjectively, I prefer a first person viewpoint. I'm playing the mechwarrior. The pilot. I should have the viewpoint of said person. As a simulator, it should convey the actual experience that would come from piloting many tonned angry robots bristling with death weaponry. In an early dev blog the game is described as being intended to harken back to mechwarrior's simulator roots.

Objectively, a third person viewpoint confers a situational awareness advantage and sight line advantage over a first person viewpoint. Because of camera positioning, it gives the player a wider field of view, allowing observation around corners and over hills without exposing any portion of a mech to return fire. It was abused horribly in the MW4 iterations online play and in my opinion was one of the greater faults present in those games.

Continuing; in MWO one of the main tenants is team based play, which is encouraged by the lack of a 360 degree radar. A third person view, once again dependent on the camera angle and amount of vertical pan, gives the player a limited rear view, somewhat nullifying the lack of a 360 degree radar. In a sense, it makes people playing a first person perspective at an inherent disadvantages over people using a third person view.

Example; unless the targeting mechanic is bound to the sight line of the mechwarrior's POV, a third person camera will allow a player to target mechs while remaining out of sight and thus not able to be targeted by opposing players. When you have indirect fire such as LRMs, this is inherently broken. A major part of their current LRM mechanic is that a spotter opens himself up to return fire from the other team, allowing them some recourse and more options to avoid indirect fire (take out the spotter, rather than just seek cover or move out of range.

Now, PGI is suggesting that they might split queues, and have an option to drop in a 1PV or 3PV queue or both. This equals the playing field partly in that now you have the option to only playing against opponents with the same advantages or disadvantages that you possess, but it causes a myriad of issues.

It splits the community. Not only for random drops, but what happens when community warfare is implemented. Is it going to be split as well? It there going to be two iterations of CW? What happens if there isn't enough FPV teams to defend a planet? The hypotheticals are quite numerous. Many of these concerns can probably be designed around, but it needlessly adds more into what is already behind stated development schedules.

Edited by Khavi Vetali, 14 November 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[skullman86]

Listening to the podcast now, but the setup mentioned in the main post is a bad idea.

Quote

They also plan to add a "way" to define wich type of play the match will have: 1st person, 3rd person or both.
This can be done via your House/Merc/Clan settings on community warfare.
So you will be able to choose only to play against other 1st person players, or 3rd, or allow any of the two.

They are just going to end up dividing the community, and I don't know if there are enough people playing right now to do something like that without inadvertently screwing over one of the groups.

---------------

Where I stand...

Full 3rd person- Please DON'T

3rd person camera/UAV via module or some other device (time limited+cool down when used in-game)- OK

--------------------

If the concern is new players, I think the first step would be to explain this stuff in a tutorial (in-game, not just some video on the website). As far as changing the game goes, making the UI a little easier to understand may be worth trying before you add a view angle that the majority of the playerbase abhors.

-The arrows on the sliding compass could be made to stand out a little more. Part of the problem may be that users don't actually know what they are for. You only realize what everything is after playing around with the controls a bit, but if you aren't looking up there you will never get to see the link between movement and the guide arrows.

-You could add an animated icon to the HUD that shows the position of the upper torso in relation to the feet. BF3 had this for tanks and I could see something like it being pretty useful for everyone. You could put it directly under the timer since players are going to be looking in that general area during combat, the bottom left hand corner, or maybe even on a screen in the cockpit itself.

-You could work on minimap readability. Maybe incorporate the previous suggestion into it somehow. I know we have the view cone and the dotted line with the arrow head, but maybe there is some way it can be improved, or maybe make the grid toggleable (off by default?) so that it's easier to see your marker.

Edited by skullman86, 14 November 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[Chemie]

Great. Let's cut the number of players in queue by half!!! Excellent.

So now you have

>4man = 1st
>4 man =3rd
<4 man = 1st
< 4 man = 3rd

Four queues. And How long will you wait? Will they show you # in the queue so you know to not even try?

Edited by Chemie, 14 November 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[Soy]

If you change your view in Madden 13, does it ruin the sense of immersiveness? Feel like you're no longer playing football, eh?

How about Tetris. What view is Tetris in the first place. Does rotating the screen 180 degrees ruin your sense of perspective on things? This is no longer a game about dropping blocks into order, now it's a game about floating blocks into order! THIS IS CRAAAAAZY

It's just another way of playing the game. Why limit yourself.

Balance issues are just that, balance issues.

When people are faced with a radical feature like this they are concerned about their ability to
a) adapt said feature into their play
deal with balance of said feature

If is dealt with by PGI and the community over the meta maturation of the game and said feature, then really I feel it's down to players to adapt to said feature or not, at their own discretion.

Feature implementation has only one direct negative impact on the game and that is PGI's focus. I fully support the notion that there are more important fish to fry - because there are serious issues with the game that need attention asap - but I'm sorry, I refuse to believe that moving the camera back 5 feet ruins the feng shui of so many players that they would stop playing, I don't believe that at all. It's just another piece that you can utilize to garner information at best, as long as it is balanced. It can be used by anyone, newbies, pros, whatever. Nothing is stopping you from keeping your sense of perspective in FPS or using 3pv at your discretion, regardless of the risks vs rewards.

There is a saying that those who lose a sense heighten their other senses, perhaps consider this anecdote when deciding to limit yourself to only playing FPS, it might even benefit you in certain situations because you've learned how to take in the situation in different ways than someone who would use a 3pv.

[Zylo]

Tinhead, on 14 November 2012 - 03:28 PM, said:

LOL you all fell for PGI's joke/troll thread !!

note in case its not a joke ... i vote no / never to 3rd person(console kid view)
this gives massive beifits to mech close behind a wall ( hiddern from enemy mech in distance)
so all LRM boats player willl vote for this 3rd view !!

I think it's only a troll thread when Paul starts it.

[Hellcat420]

3rd person view does not belong in this game. if you are having trouble piloting your mech even with the giant yellow arrow on the minimap thats always visible to show what direction you are moving 3rd person will not help you.

Edited by Hellcat420, 14 November 2012 - 03:41 PM.

[Screech]

I don't think I could get 90% of the forum to agree that the sun is going to rise tomorrow.

Just tell them to hit the center torso button if they are having that much of an issue.

[Talos Valcoran]

...nuff said.

seriously, how can you even think about an option like this? 3rd person for spectators would be a cool thing but everything else would be a turndown. it would split the community and from my experience in MW4:Mercs, the poptarting(4PPC BK anyone???) that would take place will even create more "QQ - threads" ...mark my words.

[stepsoffthesoapbox]

[employee24601]

Doomstrider, on 14 November 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

What really needs to be added is a "training academy" (how about the Nagelring or some other academy from canon?) that new players can "graduate" from after completing objectives (like moving, torso twisting, weapon firing, weapon grouping, etc.). After graduating out of the academy, give them their first customizable mech (like a Commando) and explain the Mechlab. You'll then have a lot more happy new players (and potential customers)!

Orzorn, on 14 November 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

This 10000000000000000000000000000 times over. We NEED a proper tutorial, and we also need a way to bring new players into the full experience without forcing their nose to the grind stone.

I'll say this again, but bigger:
We NEED a proper tutorial!

Quoted for maximum truth.

[Soy]

RG Notch, on 14 November 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

The actual more important question is who in their right minds thinks that this team can pull off balanced 3rd person in a reasonable time? I wouldn't care if it was non cheese but if you think PGI can handle that in a reasonable timeframe I don't know why you have that belief.

I absolutely respect your opinion, this is the wholllle crux of the issue in my eyes.

[Dukov Nook]

I do not find myself pleased at the news that those of us who really enjoy playing mechwarrior games as they should be played, in coordinated groups, against well equiped foes, each pilot doing battle from a cockpit view are quickly being relegated to the outside caste of the game audience instead of the core.

You are missing the point of this game, PGI. How is it possible you are doing this?

[TyGeR STD]

There are lots of 4 letter works that I want to use to express my feelings on this subject. Simply put would be a big fact HELL NO.
-This game is (or should be) a Simulation, as are all the MechWarrior games that have been made to date. A Simulation style game would not use a 3ed person view.
-3rd person view would make it easier for newer an unskilled players, but it would turn somewhat skilled players into skilled players, skilled players into very skilled players, very skilled players into elite players, elite players into epic players, and epic players in to GOD like players. So it would do nothing to the learning curve that people are having problems with an just make the curve larger.
-You would lose a large amount of your dedicate, loyal, fan base. A lot of people backed PGI with MWO because of the direction the game was moving. We paid good money in founders pack not just for the stuff we got, but to show our support for PGI and MWO. To do this would be a slap in the face to each and every player that has supported you.
-Less take a look at another game that released not too long ago, Tribes Ascended. The dev team that started that game created a game that showed real promises in being a new tribes creation, that would have the feel of the older Tribes games, but be new and improved. But the Call of Duty fan boys that jumped on the new game that was released an started ******** an crying about how the weapons were difficult to use and it needed to be fixed. So the Dev team started adding automatic weapon after automatic weapon an turned the game away from something that was a fun, first person shooter that was about skillful, tactical combat into noting more then Call of Duty with jetpacks were the players do nothing but spray an pray when trying to kill their targets. It is no exaggeration when I say 90+% of the players that were die hard Tribes fans that were chomping at the bit for the game, now no longer have anything to do with the abomination that carries the Tribes name.

Don't cut the legs out from under this game before it has a chance to hit the ground running. Adding 3rd person view will do nothing but drive away the loyal, skilled, diehard fans that have been waiting for this game for years. It will remove the possibilities for good, skilled league play to start up with in the game and it will shorten the life this game could have. A lot of the players that are now playing MWO played MechWarrior 4 and still do play Mech 4 until this game cam out. The only reason they have moved from Mech 4 is because you brought is MWO. They are here because you brought a new possibility of what a MechWarrior could, an should be, don't throw that away by making a dumb mistake like adding 3ed person view.