3696 replies to this topic

[Walk]

Wow. The community is rather lop sided with their opinion on this one...and for once, I agree with everyone here. No 3rd person!

[Keifomofutu]

Rathe, on 14 November 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

You guys might want to actually listen to the podcast.
http://nogutsnogalax...2-russ-bullock/
There's the link for the info. I was really turned off by third person, but Russ seemed to be pretty confident that it would only be used for the very newest players, and you'll be able to mark 'only play 1st person.'
The 3rd person stuff is all talked about at between 19:00 and 23:00 in that podcast.

Transcription:
Russ bullock: "for me, first person is the way mechwarrior is meant to be played. I was actually really against 3rd person for a long time. I'm beginning to realize that was a mistake. Originally in closed beta, first person was for the really hardcore fans. The most complex thing for new player is the torso aspect, believe it or not. At E3 or some trade show, a totally new player steps up to the game and moves his mouse, seeing the screen movement he expects that he's moving that way like any other shooter. They don't realize why they are running in place. of course, what they don't realize is that they're running into a building, and it's just that little aspect of torso which is the number one hardest thing for new users. The only way to truly show people what's happening in the game is 3rd person."
"the tanker anology helps a little bit, but you can tell people they're driving a tank all day long and it doesn't really sink in. why is world of tanks so damn easy to play? It's cause you're staring at your tank. you can see which way you're driving. The biggest concern I had with 3rd person was I didn't like the peeking around corner thing. but there' sno denying that if we want MWO to acheive the next level of players is that we need 3rd person"
"First and foremost, we're totally caucausing what the hardcore player base wants. If you don't want to play 3rd person and you don't want to play 'against' people in third person, we're making that an option. think of third person like a training camera. if for the first few hours, someone gets to view 3rd person camera angle that teaches them how the mech functions, and then a few hours into the game they pop into first person to experience the more advanced aspects of the game, the mercenary aspects, the CW aspects. think, 'here's how we train people how to play the game.'"

I'm really finding that hard to argue against. As long as my 'srsbzn' mech game is first person, then third person will only make it easier to get new players into the game.

So because some player at E3 doesn't GET the game in two seconds we need to remove the entire simulator and immersion aspect of MWO?

OR WE COULD SHOW HIM AN INGAME TUTORIAL

[Vassago Rain]

You know what.
Here's what they're doing.

They're trying extremely hard to completely port world of tanks into battetech. It's not gonna work, and even the russians and euros who play it knows it won't work.

[Purlana]

Add a damn tutorial, duh!

Every Mech Warrior game I played had a tutorial / training mission.

Edited by Purlana, 14 November 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[w0rm]

If someone is too stupid to take a glimpse once a while at the minimap and fails to recognize the huge arrow he should head back to WoW.

[Rathe]

Vassago Rain, on 14 November 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

These are not good developers, and their confidence would have seen the game go open beta much, much soone than it ended up doing.

Do you not remember?

Don't worry, I remember the last 3 patch debacles, in fact I wrote a series of articles on them. However, their reasoning behind the 3rd person camera 'is' sound, and if implemented the way Russ say (and don't forget he's the one that signs the checks at PGI), I find it acceptable.

Keifomofutu, on 14 November 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

So because some player at E3 doesn't GET the game in two seconds we need to remove the entire simulator and immersion aspect of MWO?

OR WE COULD SHOW HIM AN INGAME TUTORIAL

ingame tutorial at this point is ridiculous. It would require all the work of making a new map, plus a lot of stuff that isn't even in the game (like voice overs), and it would have to be updated EVERY TIME they added new content. That's a ton of work. 3rd person is checking a box for them.

Edited by Rathe, 14 November 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Catalinasgrace]

arkani, on 14 November 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Great idea, let me rush the other team in my commando and die.
Then i can just hover in 3rd person view in the map and tell my teammates where all the enemy mechs are, i´m just "spectating".
This is way better than having to real scouting. Who need's tactics if you got 3rd person view.

Hold your horses there buddy... I did not say for anything such as those things you typed... I do not want anything that would give an advantage at all, I simply want a way to take good screenshots without that darn cockpit in the way... lol...

Edited by Catalinasgrace, 14 November 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Shiney]

Noooooooooooooooooo!

Seriously NO!

[BaronMorte]

3rd person view? Great! Add ammo crates, repair kits and coolants on map, please. And it will be real arcade like "Battletech" on SNES.

[tenderloving]

GT Hawk, on 14 November 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

I don't want it. BUT atleast they would allow people to select if a match can be 1st 3rd or both views. So we just make dam sure 1st always selected and let the few who want 3rd play by themselves. that would be the ONLY viable compermise. that said NO3rd person is the best option.

The problem is they will be splitting an already small player base, and they still aren't addressing the real barriers to entry:

No tutorial
No tooltips
Trial Mechs
etc.

If people are having problems controlling their mech, then that is a UI issue. They could do a lot of things to the HUD to make it obvious which way your mech is moving in relation to where you are pointing.
And even with 3rd person, you are still going to have the mechlab, all of the different types of equipment, heat management, throttle control, location-based damage, and a host of other things that aren't "noob-friendly."

Just call it MechAssault Online and be done with it.

[Vassago Rain]

Rathe, on 14 November 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Don't worry, I remember the last 3 patch debacles, in fact I wrote a series of articles on them. However, their reasoning behind the 3rd person camera 'is' sound, and if implemented the way Russ say (and don't forget he's the one that signs the checks at PGI), I find it acceptable.




ingame tutorial at this point is ridiculous. It would require all the work of making a new map, plus a lot of stuff that isn't even in the game (like voice overs), and it would have to be updated EVERY TIME they added new content. That's a ton of work. 3rd person is checking a box for them.

It's not sound, and it'll kill the game, like it has all other mechwarrior games. We know where this goes. To jumpjetting, phantom mechs, and general lame things that don't fit into a game you'd want to play for very long.

[Keifomofutu]

BaronMorte, on 14 November 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

3rd person view? Great! Add ammo crates, repair kits and coolants on map, please. And it will be real arcade like Mechassault on XBOX.

FTFY

[Agent of Change]

flackee, on 14 November 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Third Person camera is just getting new players hooked into the game, as opposed to them not knowing whats going on and deleting the game in frustration because they cant see their legs are pointed in a different direction. It seems silly to me, but I've been familiar with that concept for decades.

And I say this with all possible sensitivity if someone leaves because they cannot spend the time to figure out a new (new to them) mechanic that really isn't all that complicated they should probably go find a game better suited to their problem solving abilities. That said we don't have to make it hard on them, I mean there is already the little arrow on the mini map that points in the direction of you legs that i even find invaluable.

There is no reason why there couldn't be a little directional arrow somewhere on the HUD showing which direction your legs are pointed in comparison to your torso. They could try to make understanding the concept easier and elevate peoples abilities first, rather than writing them off as morons and instituting a game changing perspective shift because you don't expect them to be able to handle it as is.

A new players should have no reasonable expectation of jumping in a new game and being awesome at it, especially not when that game has mechanics they may be unfamiliar with. The solution is not to ditch the mechanics core to the game because of QQing, and "I'm not good at this because it's different and i don't automatically know what to do" is not a valid complaint.

Edited by Agent of Change, 14 November 2012 - 09:25 AM.

[Josef Nader]

So, if the torso twist aspect is so hard to grasp, why not introduce a mini-model like they had in MW3? You can switch the paper doll to a little 3D model of your mech that mirrors -exactly- what your mech is doing. You can see how the torso is twisted, where everything is positioned, and shoot, you can even enjoy that eye-candy skin you forked out for. All of this without imbalancing the game mechanics at all.

Come on, PGI. We want a serious mech-sim, not this third-person garbage. There are much better ways to convey torso/leg positioning than this ****. Improve your HUD, for god sakes. That would do wonders.

[Itarrow]

Only time 3rd person is ok for me is in spectator.

Anything else, and MWO is no lomger (imho) a really "different" mech game compared to all other FPS etc.

Please don't do it.

[Zeh]

Ok.. well I'm fine with 3rd person under these conditions:

- No progress while playing 3rd person
- No effect on CW while playing 3rd person
- 3rd person limited to training area limited to other people in training

If those happen, I'm fine with 3rd person being in the game.

But there's always the slippery slope. All the ******** noobs will start complaining they need 3rd person in other modes. Then it will happen, and the game will be dead to me. ; (

[flackee]

Vassago Rain, on 14 November 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Are you taking the stance that someone cannot figure out how the most primitive and obvious viewmode doesn't work? These people never played a shooter, a racing game, a flying game, or anything?

In my job this morning, I had to point out to someone that they should enter their username in the 'username' field and their password in the 'password' field, after they did it wrong. So yeah, I think some people cannot wrap their heads around the concept of an independent torso twist without a visual aid. Also, most shooters, racing, and flying games do not have that concept. Some have independent head twisting, but they dont usually move your cockpit with the head.

[tenderloving]

Rathe, on 14 November 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

You guys might want to actually listen to the podcast.
http://nogutsnogalax...2-russ-bullock/
There's the link for the info. I was really turned off by third person, but Russ seemed to be pretty confident that it would only be used for the very newest players, and you'll be able to mark 'only play 1st person.'
The 3rd person stuff is all talked about at between 19:00 and 23:00 in that podcast.

Transcription:
Russ bullock: "for me, first person is the way mechwarrior is meant to be played. I was actually really against 3rd person for a long time. I'm beginning to realize that was a mistake. Originally in closed beta, first person was for the really hardcore fans. The most complex thing for new player is the torso aspect, believe it or not. At E3 or some trade show, a totally new player steps up to the game and moves his mouse, seeing the screen movement he expects that he's moving that way like any other shooter. They don't realize why they are running in place. of course, what they don't realize is that they're running into a building, and it's just that little aspect of torso which is the number one hardest thing for new users. The only way to truly show people what's happening in the game is 3rd person."

It's called a tutorial. It's something that every modern game has, and something we should have seen over a month ago. I don't think PGI will find a good way to train new people, because at this point it's obvious they don't know what the **** they are doing.

So far the community, while violent, has been pretty intelligent when it comes to major issues. Recently:

Too early for Open Beta
LRM/Artemis bugs that somehow made it through PGI's extensive testing.
DHS

Just make a damn tutorial like we've been asking for for months. You are having problems with new players because you have ZERO in-game help for them. No **** they don't know what's going on. I've been playing since summer and I still learn things that should have been simple tooltip information; I can't imagine what it's like for someone who can't ease into it.

Do you need an example of a tutorial? Pop in ANY GAME MADE IN THE LAST TWELVE YEARS for ideas.

Edited by tenderloving, 14 November 2012 - 09:30 AM.

[Ens]

absolutely: no

[Rathe]

Vassago Rain, on 14 November 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

It's not sound, and it'll kill the game, like it has all other mechwarrior games. We know where this goes. To jumpjetting, phantom mechs, and general lame things that don't fit into a game you'd want to play for very long.

This stuff will not happen in CW and merc corp stuff. all 'serious' MWO play will still be first person. Third person will just make it easier for a total noob to get into the game in the first place. If you don't like all that crap, check the box for 'first person' and even your pug matches will be first person only.