3696 replies to this topic

[M X Striker]

The Herrick, on 14 November 2012 - 04:26 AM, said:

I don't mind 3rd person for spectator mode but whenever you are in control of your mech it should be in 1st person. Yes, even when you fall over in collisions with other mechs (if they ever add it back in). I don't wanna see my Jenner faceplant the ground, I want to be in the mech watching my pilot brace himself during the fall, get shaken about in the impact and then fumble with the controls in a blind panic as he struggles to get the mech back on it's feet.

WHERES MUH IMMERSUNS?

I agree with The Herrick. The whole point to a BT/MW game is immersion. It's a sim after all. We should be piloting a mech from the first person perspective. That being said, they could implement a "Basic" mode leaving the existing setup as the "Advanced" mode. I'm not sure I'd give Basic mode a full third person view, but you could potentially lock the torso (no torso twist), maybe more-forgiving heat settings, and perhaps provide some sort of semi-assisted weapon aiming. This way in matchup, it would be Basic on Basic.
The Advanced players would not have to deal with it, and new players could play at a simplified level until they felt comfortable enough to move on to the Advanced mode. I'm all for supporting new players more effectively, but I don't think a full third-person view is the proper answer.
I'll also add that there is precedent for Basic and Advanced modes. The old BattleTech Arenas that used to exist (yes, I was a regular player at the one in NYC) back in the day, had these 2 modes, and each player could select which mode they wanted to play in. Advanced groups were able to decide whether or not to allow Basic players to join them. So this idea is inline with established electronic BT/MW methodology.

Just my .02,

Michael X. Striker, Templar Initiate

[3ffigy]

I'm not sure there is much I can add to the reasons not to do it, so instead I'd offer a suggestion to implement some sort of torso twist and direction indicator that is separate from the field of view and heading markers on the mini-map. Something that screams out hey your legs are walking into that building that only looks like it is to your right because your torso is twisted. Maybe this would be a separate HUD indicator that would be a top down or frontal view of your mech in wireframe to show the twist, but without the additional context that you would get from a camera floating above the mech to view the whole of combat in the 3rd person.

[Viper69]

Create an ingame poll on the splash screen and let us monitor its progress. If forum goers are a minority it will show. Dont hide the poll results because I am curious if the result matches their decision.

[TruePoindexter]

SendMyRegards, on 14 November 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

The controls of MWO are no more complitcated that most other games. To understand how to move, interact with your enviornment, use powers and kill enemies in any popular MMO takes a lot of practice. Alot more than MWO. Think of all the key bindings required for something like GW2, along with all of the keys required to interact with everything around you, then there are all the menu hotkeys. It's a complicated UI. MWO's functions are comparitively simply. It is obviously more complicated than something like COD, but nonetheless once you have a fit mech the controls are not difficult to get used to and there is a lot less to remember. In fact, if you can figure out how to bind your weapon groups all you need are the mouse and w,a,s, and d keys.

Just for fun here's a rough walkthrough of MWO controls to see how "simple" they are.

Ok so first off your mouse controls your upper body. The circle gun sight is where your arms are pointing and the cross hair is where your torso is pointing. Left click fires your current weapon group selected with the left and right arrows. Middle mouse zooms your view and right mouse fires group 2. You can set weapon groups with the arrow keys and right control. Toggle chain fire with backspace.

I'm going to stop there. You know how complex weapons are in other games? Point and shoot. Don't for a second think that MWO is no more complicated than most games. It is worlds more complex. That's why we love it. However games are not made for free and some concessions must be made to ensure that new players have a chance. Chromehounds is a great example of what happens when a game caters to only the hardcore. New players come in, get slaughtered, and never come back.

[Coolant]

3rd Person View was the preferred mode of play in MW4:Mercs. Often times there were no 1st person servers at all in the most popular game type (team battle) and if someone made a 1st person server it would often remain totally empty. The players there had the choice and they chose 3rd person. Not everyone is a die-hard BT fan and think the only way to play "pure" is 1st person...some of us just like to play Mechwarrior...which as was mentioned was generally 3rd person in the last previous installment...

Edited by Coolant, 14 November 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Dewil]

No 3rd person thanks.

I can't add any new info to why. But just look at how many players there are that dont want it. I had to scroll down to post #67 to find a post that supports your decision. And on my way there I saw many more posts from people that would stop playing immediatly if it was introduced.

So my added info might just be to not do it because you would lose too many players if you did.

Instead, I add my voice to the "Create a tutorial instead!"

[Atomvinter]

If 3rd person is implemented, there should be a button in the main menu where you choose if you want it enabled. (Call it Arcade / Sim or something). Or maybe only players with less than 1 or 1.25 KDR should be able to use 3rd person.

Players with 3rd person enabled (being able to spy over buildings and mountains with a invisible floating camera) should only play against other players with 3rd person enabled. From the discussion on the podcast, it sounds like they think every player is a friendly non-exploiting fair-player. Truth is, 3rd person pop-sniping by expert exploiters will completely ruin the experience for the poor newbies you try to cater to.

Players with only cockpit view should only play against other players with only cockpit view.

That should cater to both "groups" of players.

Listening to the NGNG-podcast, I'm shocked that they define this game as being so complicated... The only thing that might take a casual gamer a few hours to get used to is the torso twist, as they say, but most people should be able to learn it fairly quickly.

I still remember when first person shooters went from arrow keys and alt-arrow to strafe to WASD-mouse setup: I ran into walls and couldn't hit anything when shooting... for about ten minutes. Now, it's the ONLY way FPS games are controlled.

There are no complicated "systems" to manage in the game. You have your increase/decrease speed, turn, twist and shoot (not too often to avoid overheating, but that is something you should learn quickly)... And that's it.

I've said it for a long time: this game needs a PRACTICE AREA where new pilots can practice simply moving their mech, using jump jets, firing weapons on practice targets and managing heat - without veterans melting their mech. I fully understand how discouraging this game could be for casual gamers and new players, but a practice area should at least let people learn the difference between the two targeting reticles and get used to the torso/turret mechanic.

TLDR version: I don't like 3rd person in any game because it breaks immersion. 3rd person players in MWO should play in different matches than 1st person only. Also, give newbies a practice area, not just a youtube video explaining the basics.

[Comassion]

Everyone has already gone over my main thoughts on this issue - the main thrust of which is that your time is far better spent on a good tutorial, because there is far more than just torso twisting that a new player needs to be introduced to. 3rd person addresses one single aspect of the new player experience at the expense of immersion and splitting the community. But since people have already said these things, I'd like to bring up things that I haven't seen in the thread yet.



First, the game already has two instances with 3rd person viewpoints:

1. When your 'mech dies.
2. When your mech falls down (back when collisions were in).

If anything, this community has been asking to remove even these elements of 3rd person over the course of development. We want to stay in our 'mechs while these things happen, and watch in horror as the ground flies up to fill the cockpit (or the screen just goes black as that AC/20 round slams into your cockpit). We want more immersion, not less.


Second, you are already about to split the player base based on group size when we get to matchmaking phase 2. While I appreciate the need for such a split (and eventual reconnection through matchmaking phase 3), splitting the playerbase should never be done lightly, and a split based on a viewing option is not a good justification for doing so.

Third, many people see this as a first step down the path to Mechassault Online. If you start adding an option that reduces immersion just to make it easier for new players, people are worried about where that leads. Perhaps collisions will never come back, because that makes it harder for lights - but we can make that an option for the playerbase. Perhaps heat management is too complex. Perhaps people don't like losing weapons to critical hits, and just want their 'mech to stay up until it's dead. Running out of ammo isn't all that fun either. All of these things would make the game easier to jump in and play, but where do you stop? You could keep the playerbase split in two and have 'arcade mode' and 'simulation mode', but at that point you're starting to develop two different games - and you don't have the resources for that.

Fourth, the implementation of a useful third person mode likely isn't as easy as flipping on a switch and having everything work. The fact that your camera is now outside of the 'mech means that your view perspective gets even further away from the weapon ports on the 'mech, leading to more situations where players may fire and hit an obstacle that they didn't see. Precision shooting is going to be very difficult in 3rd person, especially if you're trying to lead a target. If the camera is positioned above your 'mech, and you're trying to aim at a distant moving target, then you'll have to aim at a point on the ground somewhere behind your target. Even if you do manage to hit, the fact that you're actually aiming at the dirt will probably mean that you end up hitting his legs. This isn't as much of an issue in World of Tanks, where precision shooting isn't quite as important as in MWO, but third person players will end up at a disadvantage if they actually try to fight while in that perspective. More importantly however, is the time your developers will have to spend implementing a workable 3rd person mode, when they could be used for more elements that the community badly wants to see (New player tutorial, more maps / game modes, bug fixes, weapon balancing, keeping you in 1st person during deaths and falls).

Finally, I'd like to talk about one of my favorite simulations - IL-2. IL-2 is a world war II air combat game that came pretty close to doing everything right - great physics simulation, an amazing damage model. A couple years ago they released a version for the X-Box 360, and I played the tutorial.

It was awful. The first thing I noticed was that I was in 3rd person mode, and it went downhill from there. I was carrying 80 bombs, and destroying targets at long range with average gunnery (In the PC simulation, shooting down another plane was ridiculously hard... like real air combat). I didn't stall or spin out when I did stupid things, and when I took damage, instead of a flap missing I was just losing hitpoints. I didn't buy it. The game flopped, because they alienated their existing sim audience and the steps they took to modify their sim to appeal to the masses didn't actually generate massive support. IL-2 did best when it stayed true to what it was - a fantastic air combat simulation. Brutal, unforgiving, realistic, and well-loved by that crowd of air-sim gamers that loves these things.

This tendency to change games in order to 'appeal to the masses' has easily backfired far more often than it has succeeded. I guarantee that in the end, if you stay the course on making the best 'mech sim to date, you will maintain a hardcore audience that will give you money and will stay with you for a long time. Battletech has never survived by being a game for the masses - and while I would love to see the masses come to Battletech, that is the order in which it must happen, because you cannot change Battletech to appeal to the masses and have it still be Battletech.

Look at the success of various elements of the franchise over the years. The card game has come and gone. The clicky-tech has come and gone. Tabletop - that old grognard of a game - is still played by loyal fans today, enough that it's re-release in our time has continued to sell. It endures because it retains depth, even at the cost of simplification and mass appeal.

That is why you need to make a 'mech simulation rather than a 'mech game. That is why this community howls like a wounded beast when something like 3rd person is even mentioned - it is because they have seen Mechassault and they have seen clicky-tech, and they know well the end of where that path leads. We know you need to make money - we will give (and have given) you ours. It is our greatest fear that you will fall for the temptation that is mass-appeal for battletech, and go the way of other games that have tried it, down to obscurity as you fail to reach fans and disappoint the core audience.

You can still try - and we wholeheartedly encourage you - to improve the new player experience. There are better paths to do so than this one. Trial mechs vs Trial mechs only. A robust tutorial. Let new players start playing with limited customization for trial 'mechs. Please try these things first, as we nearly all agree that they are good ideas.

[AA Yeti]

AA Yeti, on 14 November 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

For everyone freaking out about the third person camera needs to chill out...

Russ said "When you go into matchmaking it will be an option to only play against teams using third person cameras"

Thus if you are hard core (Most of us are) we will only be playing against others not using the third person view.

Seriously do your research before you look like an a$$hat

[LogicSol]

TPV is only workable if it has no HUD. Seriously.
This is a simulator, cockpit view really makes the game feel right.
This isn't gears of mechwarrior.

It either needs to not exist, or have a disadvantage to make up for it's advantages.

[TruePoindexter]

Kunae, on 14 November 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

~rude post removed~

And there's the rude comment.

Edited by TruePoindexter, 14 November 2012 - 12:33 PM.

[Valdez Raptor]

No, this is a ******** idea. Guys you are causing a huge outcry on your forums for evening mentioning this over all the other things you need to do. Do what NEEDS to be done first and foremost.

[1ceTr0n]

And besides, all the other mechwarrior games had it, so jesus, all of you take a damn chill pill.

[B4DKARM4]

Funny: this says it all -

http://i.imgur.com/kF8zx.png

[Vapor Trail]

If the whiny playerbase needs a 3rd person view to control their mech, then give them an optional window that shows their mech model from 3rd person.

And that's ALL it shows,

[TruePoindexter]

1ceTr0n, on 14 November 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

And besides, all the other mechwarrior games had it, so jesus, all of you take a damn chill pill.

See above

[BlackAce]

3rd person does nothing to aid a new players understanding of mech orientation, it just bypasses the need for understanding. This idea is purely and simply a dumbing down of combat in order to appeal to the casual gamer. It's not actively helping them in any way.

If this decision is being driven by the need to broaden appeal and bring in a wider player base, you might well find that it drives away the more economically active core players. It's a lot of work for something that might do more harm than good to the player base and do very little for your revenue stream.

[Vulix]

If third person is implemented, I am quitting MWO and giving up my corp to someone else. Will never buy a PGI product again.

I played MW4 for too long and saw it crapped down by 3rd person users who would just poptart with gaussrifles from behind hills. The same thing would happen in this game, and it completely ruins online play. I will be leaving before experiencing that **** all over again

[gregsolidus]

1ceTr0n, on 14 November 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

And besides, all the other mechwarrior games had it, so jesus, all of you take a damn chill pill.

poptarting.

[Ozzalin]

On a typical Sunday afternoon...

"Hey Grandma, how are you today, what are you doing?"

"Oh my, dear oh dear, hello Ozzy, i am trying to understand this...thing -giggles-"

"Well, let me have a look maybe i can help you"

"Thank you so much my dear Ozzy, now you see it is a video game, called, hmmm let me see, i had a little paper with the name on it, oh well, hehehe i think its called Mechanoid fighters..."

"Woah! Grandma, you're playing MechWarrior Online! Are you sure its a game for you?"

"Yes yes my dear, its a friend of mine on my social network who said her son was playing this, so i figured i could give it a go myself and see what this hype is all about -giggles-"

"Its quite a complex game to explain Grandma, why did you stop playing your new Farmville 2 that you loved so much on Facebook with your friends?" "Ok ok, i'll try to explain it to you, so what is your big problem?"

Well you see dear, i do not understand how to move, and also when i move my mouse, its making me soooo dizy, oh my, dear o' dear, it is like my whole screen is shaking, and moving and..."

"Yes well, Grandma, its called an FPS, or a 1st person view shooter if you prefer, so it's normal that your screen is moving..."

"Oh my, are they gonna fix this issue my dear Ozzy? Its really bad for my eyes you know and..."

"Yes yes, don't worry, they are changing the game into a 3rd person one very soon"

"Thank the lord, its a very good decision!"

"Ozzy my dear?"
"Yes Grandma?"

"What is 4th people view again?"

"Sighs... just get your credit card ready for now, its all they care about anyway..."

Edited by Ozzalin, 14 November 2012 - 12:42 PM.