3696 replies to this topic

[Mr Styx]

Ohh dear lord no,
even as a training cam on trial mechs would make the new pilots who have the misfortune of useing one would then have to relearn to play.

if on any mech then would spell the death of the cockpit game and thus immersion

[Poptimus Rhyme Wallace]

I dont post on forus unless i feel it is ABSOLUTELY neccesary, hence this post.
'
Dont do it, ( the 3rd person view that is ).

If you do go through with this, (and no doubt if you do, you will follow it up with even worse decisions), you have effectively lied to hundreds of people, people that in good faith PAID your salary and company costs, through the founders pack, all of these people have a right to their money back as they were given under false pretense.

It is arguable wether the MC inverstors such as myself is entitled to anything, but you guys should be expecting massive legal repurcussions from this, and if EA or some other big shadow player bails you out, expect to have nothing but frat-boys left in your userbase, we as consumers cant do much except put our faith into the words given to us.
If you make those words meaningless, you make your whole identity as game developers meaningless, you might aswell go make games for Disney or Kim-jung-il.

With that said, dont F'in do it...

[elsie]

I think I figured out a way to balance 3rd person view. Since you're floating outside of your mech, you can't see any of the HUD. So all those things like your damage and hit indicators, compass, friend/foe markers, and especially the targeting reticle, are not in the 3rd person view. That way you can admire you're mech and the landscape all you want. You should be able to see that your toes are not pointed in the same direction as your nose. You can see that light zipping up to your back and zapping you with his lasers and that huge mass of LRMs arcing in on you. And you can fraps it and make a cool movie. And by the time you transition back to a 1st person view so you can target and maybe shoot at something, you'll be cored and lying face down in the mud.

Seems pretty balanced to me. You get easy, superior situational awareness but loose the ability to do anything about it effectively. It's not that I have anything against 3rd person view per se; it just does not belong in a game of this type.

I can understand to a certain point where PGI is coming from. They already have a degree of 3rd person view code, for tripping and defeats. So it may not be as much work to add an actual view as doing something else. But just because someone is in 3rd person, doesn't mean they automatically gain the ability to keep track of their torso vs. leg direction, so it's not likely to add that much.

They really need to face the fact that they have to do the hard work. Create a tutorial (all solo, no group tutorials - we'll let the Merc companies deal with coordination) that starts off with handholding the various controls of the mech: torso twist, walk, slow, stop, reverse, centering, arms, setting weapons groups, chainfire, and all the various bits. Then have the player run through a set course (I vote for the Caustic Valley map because you can start in the clear and run into a more crowded environment and it adds the additional heat affects) and if they can make it from point A to point B and execute all the manuevers (actually hitting a target not required), then drop a few hundred c-bills on them and send them off to be roflstomped. And they can come back in it and do practice runs to improve.


elsie

[Xantha]

This is a band aid idea at best. Please don't do it. Take the time, spend the money and put together a true tutorial. Create a simple drop mechanic with target dummies and allow players to get familiar with the controls in a small map with static enemies that don't fire back.

We've been saying MWO needed this for months in closed beta and you're now seeing it. 3rd person ISN'T going to solve the issues that a true tutorial can address. New players need to learn more than just torso twisting.

Movement, Torso Twisting, weapons groupings, firing on the move, mech lab/customization, zooming, heat management, etc...

[Soy]

Vollstrecker, on 14 November 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

It really isn't, but feel free to take exception to my comment anyway.

This topic is not new and the overwhelming response to the possibility of 3rd person view has been negative in both Beta and in the poll posted and linked to.

Some of the community is new and have a right to state their opinions regardless of how much money you or anyone else has spent or how much the topic has been discussed by beta players.

[Sevaradan]

Stick to 1p only.

[lsp]

All I have to say is, no absolutely not. If this game gets turned into mech assault I'm not going to be playing anymore. 3rd person has no place in mechwarrior.

[Destron]

Add 3rd Person for Training, and copy this into game:

[ownka]

3rd person is an inherent advantage for anyone who can stand such a mediocre, distasteful perspective. I can appreciate it on games that it makes sense for. This is not one of them.

[nitra]

It is a shame, that man hours was wasted on creating a completely unnecessary system that will be under utilized , unnecessary and undesired by the majority of players.

Who ever is behind this policy of forcing yes, forcing needs to rethink their agenda.

mechwarrior is game about battling it out in huge mechs, you are the mech warrior. ergo the game places you in a first person perspective.

Regardless of how the supposed industry specialist analyst or what ever is pressuring for third person view thinks ,

this is not some arcade game . it does not draw an arcade audience, the demographic has paid for the game and the primary user base will not be using nor do they desire a 3rd person mode.

the time wasted should have been spent on building a small introductory map maybe with an urban mech and a few targets to introduce the new player to mechwarrior.

However if it is something that can not be easily disabled and you are having to jump through hoops to prevent it use then just come out and tell us that its a core feature of cryengine 3 and it cannot easily be undone . '

and you really only have 2 options

either enable it .

or

disable it , untill some one figures out how to enable, and starts using it as supposed cheat.
(will be more of a handicap actually but, nonetheless )


So if it something you are working on or have worked on then : NO NO NO !!!!


if its something your having to place a ton of man hours into disable than: NO NO NO!!!

basically dont waste your time on 3rd person mode add, fix, and implement ,more pressing issues like NETCODE please.

Edited by nitra, 14 November 2012 - 06:07 PM.

[Khavi Vetali]

Third person view takes the entire concept of being the Mechwarrior, of sitting in the cockpit, of this game being a simulator instead of a simple shoot 'em up, and throws it right out the window. With third person view, you are no longer the pilot, not even the machine, but something floating behind the machine. Not even really going into having a better overall viewpoint of the battlefield to see things that the mechwarrior would not actually be able to perceive. It takes the main vehicle for immersion in the game and just tosses it.

As for teaching someone how to drive a mech, try making a playable tutorial on basic controls and mechanics first. A mechwarriors training day, similar to initial starting levels from past mechwarrior titles. I bet it would do wonders for the people who are too timid or just plain unable to figure it out through trial and error in actual match play. You don't need a third person view to do this.

[von Pilsner]

elsie, on 14 November 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

I think I figured out a way to balance 3rd person view. Since you're floating outside of your mech, you can't see any of the HUD. So all those things like your damage and hit indicators, compass, friend/foe markers, and especially the targeting reticle, are not in the 3rd person view. That way you can admire you're mech and the landscape all you want. You should be able to see that your toes are not pointed in the same direction as your nose. You can see that light zipping up to your back and zapping you with his lasers and that huge mass of LRMs arcing in on you. And you can fraps it and make a cool movie. And by the time you transition back to a 1st person view so you can target and maybe shoot at something, you'll be cored and lying face down in the mud.

Seems pretty balanced to me. You get easy, superior situational awareness but loose the ability to do anything about it effectively. It's not that I have anything against 3rd person view per se; it just does not belong in a game of this type.

You are giving 3rd person players better SA, this will make all competitive players have to use 3rd person mode to have equal SA.

Not having 3rd person is a better fix.

[Norris J Packard]

malibu43, on 14 November 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

Anyone that thinks the active members of this forum are a representative sample of the entire target market for MWO is crazy.

It's like going to a high-end cycling store and polling people on whether or not they think less street space should be used for car lanes and more space for wider bike lanes.

I know, it's crazy that there's this many people who have voted. Do you know what the peek numbers were for CB? 3-4,000 people. That's literally a quarter of those people being polled. That's a huge number.

von Pilsner, on 14 November 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

You are giving 3rd person players better SA, this will make all competitive players have to use 3rd person mode to have equal SA.

Not having 3rd person is a better fix.

I would almost be okay with 3rd Person if it disabled zoom and you couldn't switch between First and 3rd during the game.

I'd be even more okay with the notion if your entire team was forced to either use 3rd or First. That way you couldn't have the Gausscats all with First, the Scouts with 3rd, etc. However since this is the OB, there's no way they could implement that when they can't implement proper matchmaking.

So my answer is going to be no third person.

Edited by Norris J Packard, 14 November 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Undead Bane]

Ok ppl, let's face it: we will have it VERY, VERY likely. So, as it's kinda inevitable, let me do two suggestions on how that can be.

SUGGESTION 1:

New player is greeted by a nice woman's voice, that announces, that he is now running "Mechwarrior training simulator MKV", which allows to understand the very basics of mech controls and also make some warfare simulation.
There he learns to walk, twist torso, point at targets properly by some kind of training exercises (they, actually, can even be taken from canon books), and exactly HERE he can turn the third person view, to help to understand mech's movements better and, probably, to feel more comfortable.
Oh, and third person here should not be mandatory - if someone needs it, he turns it on, if someone doesn't - he doesn't. Plus, a player should be warned, that there is no such thing on a real battlefield, so he should not get too used to it.
This must be announced with nice female voice too.

After a mission or two (say, M1: basic controlls, M2: targetting) a very different brutal/angry man's voice announces "Ok rookie, playtime is over, now it's time to pilot a real mech. No more "viewing your back" crap, we have a fight to win" - and drop you into the cockpit of something, say HBK. You go to, for example, a copy of MW2Mercs convoy mission and after that you are welcome to the real online experience.

I personally would sign up for implementing AI and routines for this kind of training. I luv programming interesting stuff anyway (and do have experience sufficient for that, you can have my resume, PGI)


SUGGESTION 2:

1. Split the player base to "ranked" (1st person ONLY) and "unranked" (= not cool, 1st and 3rd together). Don't fool yourself - it will be eventually done anyway. Yes, also eventually 3rd persons will whine their way into ranked, but let's hope it will be long time "eventually".
2. Limit LoS. Yes, like WoT did. No, it won't be that crappy, as what WoT had were artifacts of the game engine and curvy hands, that can not implement (simple) visible lines algorithm properly.
3. ...
4. PROFIT?

________________________________________________________________

And unrestricted 3rd person is a blasphemy for anyone, related to a game, that pretends to be a sort of "simulator", unfortunately.
________________________________________________________________

PS
We need new (whiny too) audience to the universe, and the new audience tends not to like steep learning curves. 3rd person makes learning easier sometimes.

[FLes]

Am I the smartest person on the planet? A freaking genius maximus?

Accoding to PGI I am, because I learned how to drive a Mech in MWO on my first day of playing. After a couple of days, it was second nature. The only experience with Mechs or Tanks that I had before that, was playing MW2 single player for several days, something lika a decade ago.

So, my question for PGI is, who are this "new players" that you're catering to? Because piloting a Mech is nothing special and any kid above 10, who is interested in piloting big robots, should learn it pretty quickly, If he doesen't have a mental disability. You have legs that you need two buttons to operate - one for left and one for right. And rotating torso is like in any fps, you just swig your mouse around.

Secondly, if you guys at PGI really need US to tell you why would third person view suck, then please, leave development of this game to someone else.

[SirBlackhOle]

Give us a PVE tutorial, but please please please NO 3rd person perspective.

[Vollstrecker]

Soy, on 14 November 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Some of the community is new and have a right to state their opinions regardless of how much money you or anyone else has spent or how much the topic has been discussed by beta players.

I never said new players' feedback is not welcome, so let me make that clear.

I stated that it had been discussed multiple times in beta, and that there are good examples of why it is bad there. I then further said that the overwhelming response was negative then AND in the currently active thread/poll, which new players are able to (and are) leaving their feedback.

Step down from the soap box.

[Redneckpanther]

No sorry game breaker in my opinion. Might as well have a radar if you really want to let people see behind them. Really if you would just give a tutorial and a little bit of instruction a beginning of game this problem goes away.

Edited by Redneckpanther, 14 November 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Zylo]

RG Notch, on 14 November 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

The funny part of this thread is people giving feedback like they will listen. The decision is made and this thread exists so they can shunt all the discussions that will flood the forum and make it look like people are upset over it. This keeps it nice and tidy and allows them to say they are listening. We as paying players are second class citizens, they want the potential player and lots of them complain that this game is too hard and 3rd person is easier than producing a real tutorial.
99% of those of us on the forums could be against it, but the bean counters at PGI are for it and guess who's going to win in the end? They don't believe we won't play or pay anymore, they know how loyal this community and how desperate we are to have a successful MW game after a decade so they will ignore us and listen to the massive console audience that wants things simplified for them.

The issue is that the bean counters winning in development decisions tends to result in a game that can't keep players who are willing to spend money.

What good is it if PGI can attract thousands of new players with few of them willing to spend money while losing others who have spent money in the past and would spend more but choose to leave along with their money?

How would the bean counters correct that loss of income? Gold ammo like WoT? More premium tanks mechs?

[Zeh]

I will not commit as much to this game as I would if there were no 3rd person mode. Right now it's my favorite game, the only game I spend my limited time playing. And I've already purchased $30 MC to dive into it quickly.

I don't believe I would ever spend money on it again, and likely would not play it much/ever if they implement 3rd person fully (Likely even partially as I believe the "partially" would eventually go away)

In short, don't do it, you'll lose a customer here. I'll go play the other Crysis-based Mechwarrior game.