3696 replies to this topic

[Stardust Reverie]

In previous games people would abuse the 3rd person view by getting LOS on you without having to expose their mech or use a spotter. Thus they could spam missiles at you or jumpjet above cover to snipe with PPC and Gauss boats before dropping back down while you had little to no chance to see it coming much less fire on them (chances were that their first volley would kill you). Basically, those using 3rd person view had an advantage over those that didn't use it. We've already had people abusing game mechanincs in this game. If third person gets put in, I guarantee that it'll have to be taken back out within a patch or two just because it's abuse would be such a problem. Keep in mind that some people will do anything to win or score kills. To some people, kill/death or win/loss ratio is everything. If you give them a game mechanic to abuse their way to victory with, that's exactly what they'll do with it.

Edited by Stardust Reverie, 14 November 2012 - 07:18 PM.

[Noth]

This is basically the one point that the players and forums agree on as a whole.

[Stone Wall]

Some people have called this 3rd person view as "game changing." I don't see it like that. With the simple ability to lock people into a certain view, this shouldn't be a problem.

Yes, gauss players/sniping will be better. This gives better scouting abilities for snipers. But if you don't want 3rd person, just lock the game into 1st.

I don't understand why some people want less options. Why not more choices? Don't limit this game in that way by not including 3rd person.

[Johann Devalis]

If there is to be a 3rd person view at all make it post death spectator mode only.

[Soy]

Zylo, on 14 November 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

If you don't understand by now then you probably never will.

At this point you are simply choosing to ignore all examples other players have given in this thread about why 3rd person view is bad for MWO.

That's right, i'm choosing to put more weight on my own personal experiences with 3pv in a FPS based game from my own extensive experience in onling gaming. Who would've thought someone would have independent thought.

Edited by Soy, 14 November 2012 - 05:12 PM.

[Tilon]

People aren't going to watch a 10 minute tutorial video.

They WILL play a tutorial. People want to be involved, not sit and watch something.

They need tactile feedback. Just make a good tutorial that explains all the movement and explains how the HUD shows their torso twist and so on, and let them practice it.

That's what is needed. It's that simple.

[TruePoindexter]

IceSerpent, on 14 November 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

In order to "play FPS" you need two things: a working FPS game and people to play with / against. Currently MWO is only in a semi-working state (I am being generous and positive here) and people working on 3rd person view won't be working on fixing existing issues. Splitting the community in half will make it difficult to find people to play with/against. So no, we are unlikely to be able to "still play FPS".

I'm going to have to nitpick here about the "semi-working" comment. How is the game semi-working? There are bugs and things that need to be changed yes but it is most definitely working. It's enjoyable and quite a lot of fun and free. I find it interesting that this free experience which is in the almost the same state that MW3 and MW4 were in is somehow "broken" yet I see the same bugs in other AAA first person games that are $60 each and no one complains.

[Pht]

arkani, on 14 November 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

In NoGutsNoGalaxy podcast "Mechs, Devs, & Beer #2: Russ Bullock" it was announced.

3rd Person view is coming.

Why and How?
It seems new players have problem with torso twist, legs and movement and the coordination required to pilot the mech, according to Russ.
So they want to help, by showing via the 3rd person view.

They also plan to add a "way" to define wich type of play the match will have: 1st person, 3rd person or both.

Hopefully they implement it correctly - do not render anything besides your own mech that you could not see from your own cockpit. That way there's no peeking over hills or around corners.

----

Can't say I'm surprised.


After more than a decade of trying to disseminate the ideas into the MW video game community in an attempt to get developers to make a game that genuinely simulates what it's like to pilot a BTU battlemech ... and the best response being "I'd just rather not discuss the topic" ...

Meh.


I'm not a prophet, but at this point my prediction is that we won't get anything better than a "mechwarrior" game aimed at the most lucrative common denominator, simulation of piloting a BT mech in combat be (you know whated) until or unless some eccentric wealthy BT/MW fan steps up and does an open source/not for profit/otherwise professional implementation of the concept of Mechwarrior - simulating what it's like to pilot a BTUniverse battlemech in combat in the BTUniverse.

Otherwise, the game will always be nothing more than prettier and prettier versions of quake, slower, with more guns, where simulation of the 'mech handling the guns is verboten and all compromises that the necessary profit motive determines to be necessary WILL happen - like, say, putting in third person, even when the overwhelming majority of the vocal players don't want third person, because that vocal group is still considered small in comparison to all the people who *might* otherwise play.

Or, hell might freeze over and some for-profit group might decide to make a really great BTU mech-combat-sim game and actually MAKE it's own niche. You know, kind of like how developers USED to do - think of a great game that didn't have a niche, publish it, make their own genre?

Edited by Pht, 14 November 2012 - 05:15 PM.

[Sidhewyn]

No thanks. 3rd person takes away from the game feel. I hated having to go to 3rd person in MW4 so that I could snipe. Takesyou out of the immersive experience. Besides there are lots of things to fix / add to this game - why intro an unpopular distraction to your to do list.

[CeeKay Boques]

Soy, on 14 November 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

I don't understand why 3pv would destroy the game. I've been following this thread a lot for the past 3, 4 hours and as far as I can tell, a lot of people are reacting with disgust. I understand concern about lack of focus by PGI, or anxiety or about proper balance issues, but I don't understand hate or disgust.

Many MechWarriors know what 3rd person does to MechWarrior competitive play from experience. I agree, that it does not seem wholly bad, its just another viewing option right? Except that actual experience shows it to be divisive. in MW4, it fractured the playerbase along that actual line. 3rd of FFP (Forced First Person) There was another line (No Heat Unlimited Ammo) that further split the community. The Devs believe that possibly there is a market there, a market that won't play MWO unless its like that. People are disgusted, because we already know the results of that thinking, because well... they're partially correct. So the hate/disgust froms players saying "Its not WORTH all that divisiveness, for a few extra players, PGI."

I personally believe that 3rd person causes 3rd person players, not that there are 3rd person players who can't/don't want to play 1st person. It will breed its own problem.

[Shelgeyr]

Please don't do it.
That is all.


edit : Oh, yeah - one more thing. Even if 3rd person mode were implemented as a "Spectator Mode Only" feature, it would vastly change the way the game is played unless you muzzle the spectators. Honestly, who wants an all-seeing backseat driver?

Edited by Shelgeyr, 14 November 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[Zylo]

Soy, on 14 November 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

That's right, i'm choosing to put more weight on my own personal experiences with 3pc in a FPS based game from my own extensive experience in onling gaming. Who would've thought someone would have independent thought.

Independent is certainly right considering you choose to ignore numerous other players explaining how it has broken other games and will also break MWO.

Have fun looking for matches if this goes in, you won't have much of a game left when those who support the game as it is now choose to leave. I hope you like World of Tanks style pay-to-win because it's the only thing that will make up for the loss of income from the hardcore supporters of the game as it exists in it's current 1st person only form.

[Vandrot]

I am a brand new player, i just bought my second Mech.
The first few games i would have loved 3rd person, simply because it would be more similar to other games.

Now that i've played a little, i'm against it. This is a new game and it has to be played differently. I can't headshot people, i can't run, dive or crouch. It is not Battlefield.

There are huge limitations in having to sit in the cockpit and barely having a zoom, but it is simply how the game works!

Put up a few more intro videos and explain the basic mechanics of armour better instead.

Educate the new players that this is a different game with different tactics.


ps. As far as torso twist compared to leg twist goes, i had trouble the first three games.
Thats it.

Edited by Vandrot, 14 November 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[FactorlanP]

Technoviking, on 14 November 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Many MechWarriors know what 3rd person does to MechWarrior competitive play from experience. I agree, that it does not seem wholly bad, its just another viewing option right? Except that actual experience shows it to be divisive. in MW4, it fractured the playerbase along that actual line. 3rd of FFP (Forced First Person) There was another line (No Heat Unlimited Ammo) that further split the community. The Devs believe that possibly there is a market there, a market that won't play MWO unless its like that. People are disgusted, because we already know the results of that thinking, because well... they're partially correct. So the hate/disgust froms players saying "Its not WORTH all that divisiveness, for a few extra players, PGI."

I personally believe that 3rd person causes 3rd person players, not that there are 3rd person players who can't/don't want to play 1st person. It will breed its own problem.

This guy gets it.

[CarnifexMaximus]

Please no. I want to play this game from the perspective of sitting in a cockpit. I know a good number of folks want the same as well. I do not want to fight against others who can use 3rd person to a tactical advantage. I know Russ mentioned on NGNG that 3rd person is looked at as a good idea for training and orientation purposes for new users. If adding it must happen, please make a beginner game mode that acts as a tutorial and keep 3rd person exclusively there. Make a game mode that has popups on how to do things, allow 3rd person for orientation purposes etc. Maybe make it trial mechs only to ensure that new players are going to be playing it. Or just make it an optional tutorial server where no competitive play at all takes place.

Everything is shaping up nicely to make a very tactical mech combat pseudo-simulator. 3rd person will totally ruin this. I have always enjoyed the overall direction PGI has been directing the game to and have always been very excited looking forward to whats on the horizon for MWO. However hearing this news last night was very disappointing.

Edited by CarnifexMaximus, 14 November 2012 - 05:19 PM.

[Stone Wall]

Technoviking, on 14 November 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

Many MechWarriors know what 3rd person does to MechWarrior competitive play from experience. I agree, that it does not seem wholly bad, its just another viewing option right? Except that actual experience shows it to be divisive. in MW4, it fractured the playerbase along that actual line. 3rd of FFP (Forced First Person) There was another line (No Heat Unlimited Ammo) that further split the community. The Devs believe that possibly there is a market there, a market that won't play MWO unless its like that. People are disgusted, because we already know the results of that thinking, because well... they're partially correct. So the hate/disgust froms players saying "Its not WORTH all that divisiveness, for a few extra players, PGI."

I personally believe that 3rd person causes 3rd person players, not that there are 3rd person players who can't/don't want to play 1st person. It will breed its own problem.

MechWarrior 3 had 1st/3rd person, but it didn't split the community. The only type of split was Non unlimited Ammo vs Unlimited Ammo.

[Pht]

Well, developers, if you're going to impelment it, do it right.

DO NOT have the game render anything in 3pv that cannot be seen by a player from his cockpit.

The ONLY exception to this rule is render the player's mech.

That way there is no peeking over hills or around corners. Parity will be preserved between 1pv and 3pv.

Of course, if you guys haven't seen me posting this a few dozen times by now ... well, you really should drink less beer at work.

-----------

Now if only this community gave enough of a darn about this game that they'd actually require developers to simulate the mechanical/sensor/computing abilities of a BTUniverse battlemech... instead of slower quake, with the pilot doing that part of the aiming that the battlemech should do.

I guess the meat and bones of a 'mech sim will never get the same emotional reaction that the shiny pretties on screen will...

Edited by Pht, 14 November 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Stone Wall, on 14 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

MechWarrior 3 had 1st/3rd person, but it didn't split the community. The only type of split was Non unlimited Ammo vs Unlimited Ammo.

Which was added by PLAYERS post launch. UA/NH and 1st Only/3rd only servers in MW4 were also configuration options set by players. So really - players fractured themselves and we made it through it alright. I don't even see it being fracturing here - just let everyone have the option and if they use it great. If they don't use it that's their own problem.

[Iulianus]

It's a simulator. You're a pilot, sitting in a cockpit. That is the view you should get. How do they propose to justify 3rd person?

Sorry, I am a big proponent of giving new players a leg up into the game, especially as time goes on and the majority player base is in "end game" of the progression. However, 3rd person is not the way. An optional, single player tutorial mission might be a better method.

[Soy]

This is MechWarrior Online. This is not XYZ.

PGI has a right to decide what is best for MechWarrior Online, which does not have to meet the expectations certain players from XYZ have for MechWarrior Online.

If they wanted to make XYZ, they wouldn't have made MechWarrior Online at all. They would've reincarnated XYZ the way it was "before it was ruined".

But this is MechWarrior Online. This is not XYZ.