3696 replies to this topic

[Eisenkopf]

Well, with everyone going strato about this, I'll say: Either optional 3rd person view, or no game for me. I'm a BattleTech veteran, and I'm computer game veteran as well (yes, I know, this is the Internetz, and I'm also a dog). Nowadays, I'm a casual gamer due to the external circumstances: Earning money, having a family, and valuing other hobbies just as high as playing (computer) games. I have played a couple of MW games, and I suck big time (look at my stats). Now, I know that this is still Beta, that I have played against others who have much more experience, so that there is currently a steep learning curve. However, I couldn't help but wonder whether learning the maps or practicing the controls will help me much, because: There is just too much to keep an eye on in real-time. Yes, there it is, I said it: I am not up the game. Or, at least, I am not willing to spend hours sucking at it before I might get better.

For all those trashing the proponents of third person view here (the old l2p yaddayaddayadda): You'd do good at curbing your arrogance, because it is based on... what exactly? That you feel you do better than the "real" MechWarriors? Because, you know, there is a reason why the 'Mechs are piloted using Neurohelmets. And I bet the MechWarriors would have had all kinds of little helper devices for keeping up with the flow of information.

You want a simulation that is "realistic" (you do see the irony here, considering the setting and the ridiculous technology choices made in the BT universe, don't you?) and that is in consequence hard to learn, fine. I want a game on one of my favorite SF-settings that is fun to play and let's me blow up things, preferably that Davion bas**** over there (could never stand the Fed Suns). I hope you will find a sufficient number of fellow elitists for you to play with. Honestly, I do, because I want the BT universe to keep on rocking.

[Solumbra]

Pakundo, on 16 November 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

This near unanimous-hate for 3rd person view is really just sad.
3rd person view as an option can't detract from immersiveness all that much, since you can always choose to remain in 1st person, but having it will be a big plus for people (yes, like me), who loved playing MechWarrior games with 3rd person, who loved watching their mechs as they piloted them.

I'll agree that 3rd person view might change gameplay a bit, but how can it really be bad at all?

And if my arguments fail to convince anyone, think about it this way:
You are all saying no to a feature that I'd like to have for reasons that're... Debatable at best.
It wouldn't harm you, but it'd be a big plus for people like me.

You must be new to online gaming.

If there is a way to play that maximizes advantage, if you do not adopt it you are purposefully putting yourself at a *disadvantage*. The 'you can always choose to stay in first person' argument is suggesting that you can also choose to play only the cannon mechs with no modifications - sure, you'll lose a lot, but you still can *choose* it. False choices are not choices.

In order to compete on a level field, you then have to adopt the /new hotness/ way of playing.

So yes, your incredibly small minority position negatively impacts the obviously overwhelming majority of players.

Why, when it seems a bare 4% of people want third person, should the rest of us have to switch to your inferior desires?

[Pakundo]

Solumbra, on 16 November 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

You must be new to online gaming.

If there is a way to play that maximizes advantage, if you do not adopt it you are purposefully putting yourself at a *disadvantage*. The 'you can always choose to stay in first person' argument is suggesting that you can also choose to play only the cannon mechs with no modifications - sure, you'll lose a lot, but you still can *choose* it. False choices are not choices.

In order to compete on a level field, you then have to adopt the /new hotness/ way of playing.

So yes, your incredibly small minority position negatively impacts the obviously overwhelming majority of players.

Why, when it seems a bare 4% of people want third person, should the rest of us have to switch to your inferior desires?

It's not an inferior desire.
3rd person is, as far as I'm concerned, a part of what a MechWarrior game should have.
And to be quite frank, other than a slight increase in your field of view (in that you can see from behind yourself or behind cover, both of which make for minute game balance differences), what other big difference does 3rd person make?
I'll wait for your answer first.

[Chrithu]

Pakundo, on 16 November 2012 - 05:41 AM, said:

It wouldn't harm you, but it'd be a big plus for people like me.

Pure PvP Game.

Competitive players want to do their best on a leveled field.

3rd person view has overview advantages over 1st person that should not be underestimated.

For a lot of competitive players that want to compete with as many different players as possible 3rd person is not an option then but forced upon them to operate on the same level with others using it.

This colides with the wish to have immersion.

OR 1st person and 3rd person get seperated queues.

This collides with the whish to compete with as many different players as possible.


But for me the most important points still are:

The reason for wanting to implement it is VERY questionable. Or better put: I do agree that it truely is a problem but I do not think 3rd person is the best solution for it.

In the light of that the resources needed to implement proper 3rd person (just think that seperated queues only make it even more complicated) would simply be wasted and better used on more pressing concerns, which everything pointed out in this thread and the numerous "don't go open beta yet" threads in the vanished CB forums would be. So there is A LOT of stuff that right here and now is MORE important in order to be able to also keep those new players you could possibly attract by making the game mechanics more accessible.

[mekabuser]

wild, this is gonna reach 100 pages like the patch day spam, but this isnt spam, its rage lol.
On a side note, what part about a FIRING DELAY makes the game easy and accessible to noobs.?
tbh something like that is far more difficult to get used too<still not used to it> than "torso twist"

Pakundo, on 16 November 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

It's not an inferior desire.
3rd person is, as far as I'm concerned, a part of what a MechWarrior game should have.
And to be quite frank, other than a slight increase in your field of view (in that you can see from behind yourself or behind cover, both of which make for minute game balance differences), what other big difference does 3rd person make?
I'll wait for your answer first.

oy, 3rd person allows you to see beyond cover that you are behind.. i,e, you are behind cover and can observe the enemy come out into the open .. You can line up the shot, completely behind cover, move foward 5m or tap JJ fire and be behind cover again in 2 seconds.. THATS why people dont like it.. Its effectively an exploit.

[Solumbra]

Pakundo, on 16 November 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

It's not an inferior desire.
3rd person is, as far as I'm concerned, a part of what a MechWarrior game should have.
And to be quite frank, other than a slight increase in your field of view (in that you can see from behind yourself or behind cover, both of which make for minute game balance differences), what other big difference does 3rd person make?
I'll wait for your answer first.

Your reply tells me everything I need about your position - you think being able to see around hills and corners is a 'minute' issue. Replace 'around' with 'through' and see how silly you sound. The logistics are pretty well the same in your point of view, and the community knows it. Sadly, the developers seem to be trying to bring in players who can not, or will not, adapt their FPS tastes even though (at current count) 90% of the players are against the idea.

[Robdillard]

I can understand why PGI is looking into this for options. Despite my strong feelings against it.

It clearly worked well in world of tanks. I was very often moving the camera around to get the best possible angle for battle.

If PGI feels this is needed for player introduction,3rd person might have a place in a tutorial section which the game sorely needs.

Handling of these mechs is similiar to tanks. World of tanks had 3rd person view all the time. It also had a training mode. That would be the perfect place for getting people familiar with how their mech handles.

I really do not want 3rd person in the main combat. If it has to be done I wll probably ultimately still play the game but it wouldnt be the same game I have come to enjoy. Which would also result in a careful monitoring or completely not spending my mc I have until I believe the game is where I want to invest further funds.

Edited by Robdillard, 16 November 2012 - 08:08 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Windies, on 16 November 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

Sure it does, I can't go on facebook or www.weather.com without seeing a big glowing atlas head saying "The legend has returned". Also they need to recoup the cost of salaries and expenses while still making a profit. Hell go to any gaming site or any site that generally has mass side-banner ads, I garuntee you, you will see the glowing atlas head.

In this day and age when inflation is as high as it is, 5 million seems like a lot to the average person , however not to a business or corporation that can spend that in a couple months easy developing something.

OMG... get a scooby.

the only reason why you see those TARGETED ADS is because you used your email to sign up to this site, looked at the MWO facebook page, watched a mechwarrior related video on youtube, and/or finally used google to search for 'Mechwarrior' at some point.

Your grandma isn't seeing MWO adverts everywhere, she is seeing senior dating sites and vagisil cream adverts.

[Solumbra]

Eisenkopf, on 16 November 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

Yes, there it is, I said it: I am not up the game. Or, at least, I am not willing to spend hours sucking at it before I might get better.

For all those trashing the proponents of third person view here (the old l2p yaddayaddayadda): You'd do good at curbing your arrogance, because it is based on... what exactly?

I like when people make my point for me. You don't/can't/won't adapt to this style and for whatever reason you think *the game* should change so you won't have to take the time to get better at it? And you have the gall to suggest *others* are arrogant?

Believe me, I know arrogance - arrogance is where I eat and drink; you've got it in spades.

[Osiris1975]

I agree with all the "No" votes here. The reason I play MWO is because it plays like a sim. I grew up on sims and have been starved of them ever since the sim genre nosedived after Falcon 4.

This game requires more tactics, planning, and intelligence than a game like BF3, and that is what sets it apart from others. Yeah, the 'game industry gurus' will say sims are dead, they'll say keep shoving arcade-style FPS down our throats like Purdue chickens being fattened for the supermarket. I'll say go look at how much money those games the game industry gurus would say won't succeed are raising directly from players, especially pay attention to Star Citizen, which has raised nearly $4 million dollars in funding, twice their goal.

MWO players don't want the mindless FPS that can be played by anyone with a two fingers and a brain stem. We want what you've given us, only more - broader and deeper content and gameplay. Adding third person view to the game would unbalance it. It'd take away flanking tactics.If it translated to spectator view, it'd let dead players unfairly assist their living buddies.

So...Just. Don't. Do. It.

As for the helping new players argument. Note I have 3 posts on forums, so you can see I'm pretty new. I've been playing this game for just a few weeks. The other night, I got 5 kills. My K/D is over 1, and if you were to take out the trial mech stats, it'd be MUCH higher than one. I still think I'm a pretty new player, and I'm doing fine.

Sure, you've got the people who've never played anything but World of Warcraft. The answer to training them is not third person view, it is a single player tutorial mode. Start them with stationary targets that don't shoot back. Teach them about targeting specific weak spots on enemy mechs, teach them about defanging enemy mechs. Then the enemy mechs start shooting back, but remain stationary. Teach them to keep moving when shooting, let them practice keeping a bead on the target as they move. Teach them about weapons groupings. Then let the enemy mechs move.

Then when they are ready for multiplayer, pit trial mechs against trial mechs. Fix the matchmaking, that is your problem. If you must put trial mechs against regular ones, balance the teams so they have the same number of trial mechs. Yes, PGI argues that trial mechs aren't that bad. Yes, they aren't that bad, but their pilots for the most part are green. So when you reason that trial mechs aren't that mismatched against regular ones (which I disagree with), that is not the point, the point is green pilots are forced into trial mechs, and therefore green pilots in trial mechs are torn to shreds by experienced pilots in regular mechs. It is a double-whammy.

To sum up:
No to 3rd person view.
Yes to single player tutorial.
Yes to fixing matchmaking so trial mechs only fight other trial mechs.

Edited by Osiris1975, 16 November 2012 - 06:28 AM.

[EmptySkull]

I thought every generation was faster learners than the preceding ones. I'm an older player and I thought the majority of folks here are of the mature nature.

Why can't these young whipper-snappers pilot a mech which seems so easy to me and lots of other "mature" folks?

But it seems a lot of folks might need hand holding. So please do so with a more robust training grounds/intro whatever.

Like I said I wouldn't leave the game if/when they introduce 3PV. The game is so full of potential. I have a lot of fun playing. So I get PGI needs to make money to keep the servers up so I can continue to play.

Just make sure that 3PV is actually the problem. Not a very steep learning curve to the game in general due to lack of information IN-GAME.
_____________________________________
There needs to be so much information made available. For example as they are downloading the game have them read a "Pilot Manual" with lots of quick tips. Make sure that when they are starting the download that they know they need to read this manual. Include a brief history, include environment stuff, weapon stuff and mech stuff. And make sure they know the forum is here for more info. Exapnd the info in the mech lab. All weapons stats need to be there when you click on it. Tooltips when hovering over a say the Heatsink as to what it does and available upgrades.

This seems like it would be necessary regardless so get it into game fast tracked. And maybe it would help with retention.
________________________________________
Please make the mech lab more customization friendly. Let one fiddle around with all sorts of builds then decide to pay for it or not.



Since I believe 3PV is coming I can only hope that it is implemented in the best way.

Edited by EmptySkull, 16 November 2012 - 06:20 AM.

[Buckminster]

If this is the official feedback thread...

From an old sim-game person, I find third person view breaks the immersion of it. You are supposed to be the guy piloting a giant robot, not the guy hovering 30 feet above and behind it. I also think that part of what makes MWO so enjoyable is all of the feedback that comes through the cockpit - the HUD, the compass, target information - all of that feels 'right' as part of the information that is coming to you as a pilot in a cockpit.

Tactically, I think allowing some people to go third person would provide an unfair advantage over people playing first person. Part of learning to pilot your mech is the spatial awareness of your mech. And another factor is being able to see only what the pilot sees. Games where you go to the third person view to see around corners and stuff may be fine for your arcade shooters, but it'd be out of place in MWO.

I guess the long and short of it is that I really like the MWO simulator feel. Moving to 3rd person would break that.

And as far as new players being tripped up with some of the commands, a training grounds would really help this. Let someone run around in a mech and shoot at stationary targets, with no XP or repair bills. Chromehounds had a similar feature, and it really helped learn how to control the mech.

[chewie]

Hmm, 2 days, 90 pages, the majority agree. No to 3rd person.

what more to say?

@ Pakundo

you really liked the 3rd person view that much huh. I got just the game for you, its right up your street I reckon.
Mechassault.

knock yerself out fella.

[KitK]

I poseted this else where, but since this is the "official" thread, I'll repeat.

Different idea:

Add another information screen or multi-function display to the cockpit. In the display show the mech from some 3rd person angle, thus giving the pilot feedback about the mech's orientation but not live camera or targeting feedback.

More details:

This could be a simple wire frame or a fully rendered visual of the mech.

If a wire frame it could be a stardarized mech icon rather than having to make yet another drawing of every mech.

A simplifed terrain map could be included so the player could see if he/she was walking into something.

This would make the 3rd person view part of the information feedback system to the pilot rather than an alternative player perspective. (examples of other parts of the information feedback system would be the heat bar, speed bar, damage indicators, the map, targeting information, chat window, the arrows that already indicated torso twist (never use 'em))

Other/ Conclusion:
No, I'm not in favor of 3rd person. But I can understand the desires and needs for it. Visual feed back as to the mech's orientation is essential, which is why it is already in the game with those little arrow indicators. 3rd person POV would drastically improve how orientation information is communicated. I am trying to suggest a compromise that harnesses the informative power of 3rd person POV to communicate orientation without altering the perspective from which all the live environmental information is gathered.

[Sadist Cain]

Constructive feedback??? you people are showing time after time your complete inability to listen to the playerbase, you refuse to fix blatent bugs and instead keep piling in more features that don't work, wreck other things and generally **** everything up. and you're expecting ME to be constructive?!?

My god you people are stupid and it's a miracle you havn't gone bust yet, No wonder Duke Nuken forever flopped so hard if you lot had a hand in it.

WORST COMPANY EVER

[DivineEvil]

Ghogiel, on 16 November 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

OMG... get a scooby.

the only reason why you see those TARGETED ADS is because you used your email to sign up to this site, looked at the MWO facebook page, watched a mechwarrior related video on youtube, and/or finally used google to search for 'Mechwarrior' at some point.

Your grandma isn't seeing MWO adverts everywhere, she is seeing senior dating sites and vagisil cream adverts.

Yeah, sure. You're seeing MWO advert's because you're already playing it. Don't be so naive. People are playing their money to the popular sites, so that these adverts will show up, otherwise they will not. I'm seeing online game ads on different places and dont see them in other. For some portals that's the only way to earn money to sustain their domain in the first place.

3rd person is ok for World of Tanks, since the only alternative is looking from the tank with severely limited field of vision, and it's required to shoot in 360 degrees, while even one shot taken into the rear can spell your doom. It will not work the same way in MWO, and I can beraly imagine how people are going to aim and lead the targets from 3dP perspective in the first place. New players just need a clear understanding how to figure out their current state in HUD. That's it. Nobody need it. Focus on more meaningful features. Hell, remaking the Lobby for full-screen gonna take a lot of effort, but it's what has to be done. Machine Guns, Flamers and Artemis need tweaking, PPC's need some love, many items need description. Why attending yourself to objectives so meaningless, after so much talk against it?

Please be reasonable.

[Eisenkopf]

Solumbra, on 16 November 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

I like when people make my point for me. You don't/can't/won't adapt to this style and for whatever reason you think *the game* should change so you won't have to take the time to get better at it? And you have the gall to suggest *others* are arrogant?

Believe me, I know arrogance - arrogance is where I eat and drink; you've got it in spades.

Why I should think the game should change and not me? Because I play games for fun. And I have played enough games that successfully followed the old golden rule "Easy to learn, hard to master". If you call that arrogance, well, then I'm guilty as charged. What I'm missing from you is any constructive ideas as to how to make the game easier to access for those unwilling to spend hours sucking at it. But I guess that's not high on your agenda now, is it? Third person view takes off a burden from the pilot, because you see intuitively what's happening, you don't have to look at some readouts while your cockpit is rattled by the latest impact. Ohhh, such is the nature of combat? Sure, but I bet real MechWarriors would have a 3rd person view running on their HUD/augmented reality glasses. And I'm sure that there are many ways to address the "looking around corners" problem, like checking for LOS and blurring or showing only the outlines if there isn't any. But of course, that would still be detrimental of your sacred cow "simulation". Well then, why not have different battle modes like other games have? Random battles for the noobs and loser like me, with 3rd person view, and hardcore modes for the real warriors where you go? By the way, where exactly did I express my unwillingness to learn? Hm, care to quote? I said I don't want to suck big for hours in a game that I play for fun. My real life is interesting and challenging enough, I don't need a game to provide either. Obviously, you have a problem with that attitude. Obviously, I have a problem with you having a problem with that. We should leave it at that, I guess.

[FLes]

Dough!

Guys, it just hit me. That idea is so unblievably stupid that it can't be real! And it isn't. PGI is just trolling us, that's all. That must be it. LOL, I feel so naive for actually taking OP serious

[DivineEvil]

It took me 3 games to figure out all direction/angle/speed/twist navigation HUD elements and using them to roll on any mech. Anyone, who cannot do that must start thinking a bit. Developers are about to do a lot of useless work due to those people. 3rd Person view is not needed. Some tutorial mission is. Or Help menu element. And a lot of bug fixing, weapon tweaking, description writing, parametric balancing, etc etc. Don't force PGI to include feature that majority of sane players will ignore.

[Alois Hammer]

Kobold, on 15 November 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

Even if you take PGI at their word, that their goal is to improve the experience for new players, there are so many other ways it could be done. Personally I'd love to see a wireframe model of your mech in your HUD (which could also show missing limbs, etc).

If you take them at their word, you find yourself in a quandary: Is their word that 1st person is a core pillar of their design their real word, or their "no really, we promise that when we renege on 'core pillar' and add third person anyway, we'll make sure it doesn't muck up first person" their real word?

Talk like a politician, get what you deserve- people not trusting you as far as they could drop-kick you.

Natanael Cormac, on 15 November 2012 - 10:23 PM, said:

You know how in racing games when you turn around there is a large announcement across the screen that reads "WRONG WAY"... ?

Couldn't you just put in a warning alerting players to something along the lines of "PATH OBSTRUCTED, CHANGE COURSE"?

Sounds like a job for B------- Betty:
"Mech is walking into a wall. Please turn."
"Still walking into wall. Please look where you're going."
"Still walking into same wall. Reporting to High Command, expect reassignment soon."

Edited by Alois Hammer, 16 November 2012 - 06:57 AM.