3696 replies to this topic

[Alois Hammer]

Pakundo, on 16 November 2012 - 05:55 AM, said:

It's not an inferior desire.
3rd person is, as far as I'm concerned, a part of what a MechWarrior game should have.
And to be quite frank, other than a slight increase in your field of view (in that you can see from behind yourself or behind cover, both of which make for minute game balance differences), what other big difference does 3rd person make?

The big difference it makes is the one you're trying to handwave off as "minute." Can you seriously not see the advantage to the 3rd person player when they and a 1st person player are approaching each other at a corner, and the player with the "slight increase in field of view" is guaranteed to see the 1st person player first every single time?

If you can't see how that's not "minute," I don't know what to tell you.

Eisenkopf, on 16 November 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

For all those trashing the proponents of third person view here (the old l2p yaddayaddayadda): You'd do good at curbing your arrogance, because it is based on... what exactly?

Pot calling kettle, pot calling kettle- I have an update regarding your coloration, it is black. Over.

What could be more arrogant than demanding the entire game change to suit you and <5% of the playerbase who can actually be bothered to respond?

Edited by Alois Hammer, 16 November 2012 - 07:47 AM.

[Chrithu]

Eisenkopf, on 16 November 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

I simply want a visual interface that gives me more information with less cluttering and less load - 3rd person view. You don't have to like it and you can offer good arguments against it, but a lot of posters here are beyond dislike.

Quite frankly then you want the 3rd person view for the exact reason why most of us don't want it: It has advantages in the departments of situational awareness or overview.

Just so we do not misunderstand each other I try to explain your true problems with the game for myself:

Your main problem is that the information on the current battle situation given to you in the first person cockpit is badly organized and thus you miss a lot of it and that is why you perform bad. Example being for instance that you have a hard time noticing that your are hit from behind by heavy dmg while some AC2 is annoying you from the front.

I do agree that this is indeed a problem and during CB A LOT of people tried to stick the devs' noses to it.

Some things will be improved when the Beagle Active Probe is implemented. That device will improve the radar, not sure yet if only for mechs carrying it or for everyone in the team.

To improve other things there are also suggestions that make 3rd person unecessary:

Rear view camera display in the HUD (as optional module since it isn't really BT style).

The minimap could indeed protrait a bigger cut of the field. Especially since there are even bigger maps to come in the future.

Right now only those two come to mind. But I think there are a lot more suggestions.

I also have to mention that big part of the problem of having too little information about the current situation is the fact that a lot of pilots don't lock on to targets. So you don't get the info about mechs you don't see but teammates see on your minimap.

Quite frankly I think 3rd person simply isn't a real good solution to any of the problems (be it getting used to mech piloting or fight the bad situational awereness on the field). If it was real life tanks and fighter planes would use camera drones aswell to get a third person view (I know this is slippery slope still there is a little trueth in it).

[GoGo Yubari]

PGI needs some tough love.

Wargaming and World of Tanks is the thousand pound gorilla. MWO isn't WoT though and it won't become one. It will never be as successful as it either. Hard to swallow? Well, it is the truth. It is exactly the same thing as on the MMORPG field where countless MMOs branded themselves as WoW-killers. They all failed and their inflated expectations occasionally destroyed the game. Thinking Mechwarrior is just going to able to steal some of WoT's glory is foolishness. It is pretty clear that it has been a huge design influence, but at some point you'e gonna have to innovate and blaze your own trail. To me it seems that third person coming to Mechwarrior is the "let's copy WoT"-crowd winning at the PGI offices.

However, MWO doesn't need to be WoT or reach WoT numbers to be successful. I could reiterate all the points why your hardcore fans love Mechwarrior, but the fact is you know all that already. The sim aspect, the competitiveness, etc etc. I don't need to tell you about the furor on the official forums, but that can be ignored because folks here are all dweebs, right? Well, I could also tell you about the uproar this idea is causing on forums attached to player communities across the Web.

You have chosen to ignore that part in a grab for more players. Getting more players is an understandable goal, but the way to accomplish it is not to cannibalize your own product/player base. Instead, it is to have a hard look at what makes your game special and communicating that better/farther. You can ease people into the game. You can leverage your hardcore fans to sell the game. You can find your niche.

A tutorial mode/area has been discussed to death on the forums. That isn't a new idea either and you know about it. Instead, you choose not to go that way. We get a few youtube videos which are branded as official tutorials and that's it. Well, it's better than nothing and good work for the NGNG peeps, but it could be so much better. A good tutorial area would serve the new players, addressing the stated core problem of your argument (learning torso twisting) , and it could be designed to serve veteran players as well as a testing and practice ground.

3rd person WILL split the community. Your community isn't big enough that it can be a good thing. You say people can start out with 3rd person and graduate to 1st. I doubt it will work that way. Instead, you'll train two kinds of people who want nothing to do with each other's gameplay. That can't be good.

Of course, if there are stakeholders controlling the pursestrings who want WoT numbers, with WoT gameplay, where torso twisting is just a red herring argument in a war over design decisions, well... that way lies failure.

[AvatarofWhat]

@ Eisenkopf

Sorry you can't get used to this game. The overwhelming majority has stated their opinion, 3rd person view will ruin this game. It was something they said they were not going to implement and now they are backtracking because people like you can't get used to playing the game the way it was intended. If you are too arrogant to learn to play the game the way that over 90% of the fanbase enjoys and insists upon(so that players like you don't get an unfair advantage from seeing around corners and behind them and such), how about you go play another game?

[Khan Warlock Kell]

I think one of the biggest issues is once 3rd person is implemented even with the option to turn it off, even force it off in meta games drops server side. How long will it be before someone hacks the program. allowing it to be turned on or off at will player side ? Before anyone says its not possible or it can be controlled server side. Ask people who played MW4 in its various incarnations what happened there. Third person was hacked to buggery and at times was nothing but a red haired step child mode that caused more arguments and more accusations rightly or wrongly of cheating than any other issue i can remember.

If people want to play 3rd person go play Hawken. If you want to simulate piloting a BattleMech play MWO.

PGI Remember your roots, MWO IS a FP Mech simulator, Not a 3rd person run and gun shooter.

If you want to help new people get into MWO, crack open MW 4 and review the tutorial in there and implement something similar here as other people have said.

Edited by Zakius, 16 November 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[Buckminster]

Eisenkopf, on 16 November 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

I do remember those games, because I played them. Oh, and as I have also pointed out, core elements of BT like heat and torso twist etc. are familiar to me since FASA sold the first Basic Set. But maybe I'm not in the mood anymore for "real" simulators, maybe I can't be bothered anymore. Who knows. Whatever the reaons, it's none of your concern or business. That's why I find the attitude displayed in this thread so appalling. A simple "No, because ABC" is not enough, it has to be "No, because otherwise we cannot seperate the wheat from the chaff, and by the way, I'm wheat, and everyone who proposes or likes 3rd person view, is chaff."

Yeah, the "3rd person is for losers" mentality is a bit disheartening. This is supposed to be an honest and open conversation, not a troll fight.

And regarding the whole torso twist/leg lock - I've kind of gotten around this. I use a joystick (sidewinder 2), and have the torso twist bound to the axis twist of the joystick, and I have the left and right bound to left and right of the joystick. So if I want to turn my whole body left, legs and torso, I push the stick left. If I want to twist my torso left, I twist the stick left. I find it to be a lot easier to control, and a lot less disorienting than the mouse and keyboard controls. There's a reason I stick to heavy mechs - moving fast with the torso twisted makes me a bit dizzy and ultimately leads to me stuck in a corner not knowing which way I'm going.

[UnseenFury]

Look where our money went! IGP changed their logo!

Why even bother, this game was made for handicapped (8v8 small maps) and will be cater to handicapped.

Why not just give autopilot autofire AI for r3t4rd5 that can't control their mechs?

Man, I give up.

Edited by Paran01ac, 16 November 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[Leroy Jenkens]

miSs, on 14 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Greetings!

Topic says it all! We would like to hear what you have to say about Russ' Announcement in regards to 3rd person view on NGNG's last podcast: Mechs, Devs, & Beer #2 with Russ Bullock.

Please give constructive feedback by being clear and concise on what your opinions/concerns are about this feature.

We would like to have your feedback only, if you want to share your thoughts and discuss about this, please use this thread.

Just another bad idea PGI.

[Zolthar]

Instead of the 3rd persone view, could we just have a kind of ShowRoom, where we can look at our mech without having to get into a game.

[Sen]

I actually got my WIFE to play MwO. She HAS NEVER EVER played a mechwarrior game, or for that matter really any sim/FPS game in general. For two days she was extremely frustrated by the torso twist.

she's been playing for about a week now, and she's a Cicada/Jenner pilot now. Last night she consistently got 1-3 kills, and we're doing generally well.

She still has some torso issues, but in her Jenner she's compensated with Jump Jets for those times when she's twisted and stuck in a dead end.

And the best part: a 10-20 minute interactive tutorial would've made it practically painless for her. People have been begging for this since closed beta. TAKE HEED.

My wife picked it up in a week. WHY THE HELL do we need to turn this most excellent game into the Xbox Mech Assault series?

There's constructive feedback for ya. You don't fix what ain't broken.

Edited by Sen, 16 November 2012 - 08:05 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

WolfinExile, on 14 November 2012 - 05:58 AM, said:

And as I suggested, easily remedied by implementing a Line of Sight system for 3rd person. If there was no advantage to spot enemies over obstacles, then 3rd person will be a non-issue.

If that was done, I could see it working. If not... not.

Splitting servers could also work.

[Tallan]

There are already 91 pages of responses so I won't say much other than - please don't implement a 3rd person view. I truly believe that it would detract from the feel of the game and make it into something it shouldn't be. This isn't a 3rd person shooter and there are tactics to driving a mech. This is why I play the game and became a founder. Continue to rise above the crowd and keep the game as it, in my opinion, should be.

The feedback seems to be overwhelming - listen to your user base and take some of the ideas here to heart.

[DraigUK]

Anything to split the player base in its infancy is bad. No.

[Ozzalin]

FactorlanP, on 14 November 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

It seems that you are considering 3rd person view because you feel that new players are having trouble wrapping their minds around the concept of the feet and torso pointing in different directions.

There are already multiple in cockpit markers that indicate the current orientation of each.

The problem isn't that 3rd person view is needed for these new folks who can't figure it out.

The problem is that you need a Tutorial Mode for ALL new players.

• Use it to teach them where the torso/feet markers are and how they work
  
• Use it to teach them how to set weapons groups
  
• Use it to teach them what the range indicators are and what happens if you are beyond those ranges
  
• Use it to teach them about the throttle
  
• Use it to teach them some basic info, like LRM minimum range... PPC minimum range
  
• Use it to teach the most basic heat management concepts
  
• Use it to teach them about the Battle Map and what the different icons mean
  
• Use it to explain what a Trial mech is, for God's sake

And many many more!



The problem is that there currently is NO good way to educate the new user IN GAME. Heck, there's really not even a good official resource here on the forums.

So many problems could be solved with a mandatory Tutorial mode for ALL new players.

Third person view WILL NOT solve these problems! It will only create NEW problems.

Even with a check box that opts out of 3rd person opponents, you would be splitting the player base into two different games. Never ever ever a good idea...

If you only make 3rd person view available for new guys, you're just going to make them mad when you take it away.

There are so many BETTER ideas to solve the problem that you say you are addressing with 3rd person.


I feel very betrayed by this.

I was more then willing to remain calm while you stumble your way through Beta. But this is something that I feel very very strongly about and I cannot yet imagine an implementation of this that won't be a deal breaker for me.

This is a very sad day.

You sir are a scholar, speaking the truth.
AMEN to everything you said here!

[grayson marik]

Even worse:

3rd pers view will open pandoras box for all kind of cheating accusations, complains and any other stuff many of us can still remember from MW4.

It does not matter how many people prefer or not prefer to play the shooter style with 3rd pers view...It even does not matter how thin the arguments for the implementation of 3rd are. ( I mean.. to help noobs... really? With this lame argument you try to push this down our collective throat? )

The only questions that matters are:
- Are you 100% certain, that you want to ruin the game experience of your product?
- Do you really want to overcast the meta game, once it is coming, with the all mighty shadow of a "cheaty exploity" game view?
You have so many good things planned for this, so impressive and intense that Weisman could only possibly wet his pants over it.
You considered yourself so lucky to be now able to create a "real Mechwarrior simulation" with todays tech...

- And you really want to dump all this for a view mode that brought never anything good to any MW game till now?

Wow....that is....wow...

Edited by grayson marik, 16 November 2012 - 08:15 AM.

[Eisenkopf]

AvatarofWhat, on 16 November 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

@ Eisenkopf Sorry you can't get used to this game. The overwhelming majority has stated their opinion, 3rd person view will ruin this game. It was something they said they were not going to implement and now they are backtracking because people like you can't get used to playing the game the way it was intended. If you are too arrogant to learn to play the game the way that over 90% of the fanbase enjoys and insists upon(so that players like you don't get an unfair advantage from seeing around corners and behind them and such), how about you go play another game?

How about you vent your anger in another direction, aka as PGI, instead of making baseless accusations (where's the arrogance when I insist that a minority opinion is just as valuable as that of the majority?) and assumptions (where is the info that you will have to play against arrogant 3rdPV noobs like me at a disadvantage?). And yes, much to your relief, I am strongly considering not playing MWO. Now, does that save your weekend?

[Bubba Wilkins]

Eisenkopf, on 16 November 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

I do remember those games, because I played them. Oh, and as I have also pointed out, core elements of BT like heat and torso twist etc. are familiar to me since FASA sold the first Basic Set. But maybe I'm not in the mood anymore for "real" simulators, maybe I can't be bothered anymore. Who knows. Whatever the reaons, it's none of your concern or business. That's why I find the attitude displayed in this thread so appalling. A simple "No, because ABC" is not enough, it has to be "No, because otherwise we cannot seperate the wheat from the chaff, and by the way, I'm wheat, and everyone who proposes or likes 3rd person view, is chaff."

There is no view that gives you more information in a less cluttered way. The current UI displays all the relevant information in a concise manner while maintaining the feel that you are in the cockpit. This is as it should be.

It is certainly not for everyone, but that is what it means to be a MechWarrior title. If that is not your cup of tea, then by all means feel free to find other avenues.

You do not change the rules of Chess because you would prefer to play Checkers.

3rd person kills the experience.

[AvatarofWhat]

Eisenkopf, on 16 November 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

How about you vent your anger in another direction, aka as PGI, instead of making baseless accusations (where's the arrogance when I insist that a minority opinion is just as valuable as that of the majority?) and assumptions (where is the info that you will have to play against arrogant 3rdPV noobs like me at a disadvantage?). And yes, much to your relief, I am strongly considering not playing MWO. Now, does that save your weekend?

Lol, I'm not angry, I'm just informing you to the reality of the situation. And yes thinking that PGI should cater to a 4% minority is arrogant. What is more arrogant then thinking that you, the extreme minority, deserves equal say with the vast majority? Splitting the playerbase is not a good idea BTW. I'm just telling you to go play something you enjoy, chill out man.

[Henchman 24]

As I've noted in another thread...this is a bad idea, and a poor way to address what was called the number one problem new players have.

3rd person views, gun cameras, hip cameras....none of this will help bad drivers. It's a skill that has to be learned, it's not exactly like riding a bike as some claim, but it's not completely perspective driven either.

What needs to be taught along with torso vs. legs, is spatial awareness, speed control, turn control, aim control, heat management, incoming fire distribution, and countless other good piloting skills.

NONE of which will be addressed by the addition of a 3rd person view. This will only hurt the game, and serve to further dull the above mentioned skills that are necessary to really piloting well, and having a good time while doing it.

No PGI, what the game needs is an actual training mode. What I'm thinking of is similar to the training mode provided in Mechwarrior 2. While simple, the progressive nature of the mode ensures you know how to pilot your mech, and have a basic understanding of mech and combat mechanics and tactics.

Making new pilots go through something like this before they even hit a trial mech would solve your number one problem. It would provide them with the tools to go earn, give them a chance to pilot without being shot in the face within the first 15 seconds of a drop to the tune of "ZOMG I JUST BUMMRUSHED THE NEWB!".

I could go on and on about other companies and poorly thought decisions like these, but others have done that for me. Catering to the noisiest folks who want an easy ride does not foster the type of game you strive to create. Bottom line or not, if it ends up a disaster for the long term support base behind the IP...none of the new people you filter in will stay long enough to be profitable in the long run.

Anyway, I suspect this decision is a hasty attempt to address those concerns in a Band-Aid™ fashion to get something out quick. Bad idea guys, we know the pressure is on...but your fanbase that abandoned those titles who did this before....sort of knows by now what they want, and even this sometimes divisive community has spoken loud and clear on this subject with a good majority. (as close as you'll get here)

I'm leaving a link to videos of the MW2 training mode, please, just watch them again to spur some creativity maybe....find a better solution to this, it isn't that hard, but it will take time and cost money if done correctly, and I fear that's the motivation behind this decision.

There are plenty of good ideas, and parts of ideas floating around here on how to solve this...we're offering up these not in spite, but out of our mutual desire to see this become something grand.

Thank you for your time.

Mechwarrior 2 Training Mode Videos
https://www.google.c...iw=1760&bih=889

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Antasius, on 15 November 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

To clearify, it's about immersion. The purists don't want anything "unrealistic" to MW logic happening in game. WoT lets you play with Axis and Allied tanks on the same side... among other "unrealistic" options.

The trick is to please the purists by making 3rd person mode fit into the lore.

It is not about lore or unrealistic, the 3PV is absolutely ugly, I do not need anyone who wants to proselytize me, what I like, I have to kiss a man, to know that I do not like it ...