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Garth is watching i think (told me via PM), so i'll try to revive the thread and make a consolidated list of suggestions - not for the primary topic of a well-structured and sensible refund policy, but more for a pool of ideas that should be considered strongly for the next version of the UI which is aimed for release early next year IIRC (which most likely means middle of next year). I won't list things that i know are in the works or are soooo obvious that you'd have to be completely blind to not think of it yourself. So, here are my/others ideas as of today, prioritized by gut feeling:
- Make clear what you spend (Prio 1): artificial currencies (MCCB) are easy mix up, so there should be a strong color coding in EVERY spot you spend each of them (buttons, popups, prices etc.). My suggestion: make MC prices/popups/etc. a color that is used nowhere else in the GUI, e.g. purple, as CB will be the 'normal' currency, it can be more close to the default GUI colors, e.g. white or pale yellow. Maybe even have a $ symbol on MC transactions, although if it is not 'in-universe', but on the other hand MC aren't, too, and the symbol is not misunderstandable - even outside US. This also accounts for Mech XP (e.g. same color as CB) vs. General XP (e.g. deep blue).
- Limit Popups to where it is necessary (Prio 2): too many "are you sure" popups will numb players minds as Vista did, so they don't distinguish anymore between more ore less critical confirmations. Not sure about specifics, but maybe after when spending 1 million CB upwards there could be a popup - in conjunction with the color-coding described above.
- Implement self-service-refunds (Prio 3): More on-topic with the original intend of the thread: when clear rules are defined on what is refundable, there should be an easy-to-use interface to do this without bothering support - like other F2P-games do. The refund should list clearly what is rolled back, what you get and if possible what is lost resp. not refunded (might be important if you refund a mech that perhaps has been customized). GXP spendings should also be refundable, as long as you have not chosen perks depending on the GXP spending.
- Give all necessary information via GUI before closing a transaction (Prio 1/2): This includes several points, i'll state some very important examples: Distinguishing between one-time and permanent purchases is vital for a sensible communication with the customers. With mech descriptions, there MUST AT LEAST be visible where hardpoints are. In fact, you should include all the information of this thread in the pre-purchase-screens (it's also pretty embarassing for the company customers have to rely on third-party infos on these relevant subjects).
- Give players a test-drive (Prio 3): additional suggestion to the subject of refunds: even with all infromation in terms of numbers and facts, you don't know if you'll actually LIKE a mech, because you don't know how it FEELS playing it (i'd have considered refunding my centurion, e.g. - and there are other threads on this specific topic). Give the option to refund after around 3 test matches, perhaps with penalties like losing all gained XP when refunding. Full refund on the chassis and all unchanged equipment should be the goal, i think.
- Make MC purchases an 'add-on' to regular CB purchases (optional): not so sure about this one, as it might collide with PGIs interest to have more MC purchases. But anyway, there could be only buy-via-CB-buttons, that have a square, specially-colored MC extension (think of dropdowns with the separate arrow-symbol on the right). A tooltip could show the price in MC. If that's out of scope, at least make the buttons not as easy to misclick (further apart, different size, anything that will reduce accidental misclicks because you were shivering as it's winter or you just thought of the amount of money you hopefully spent on the game).
- Display all purchase options every time (Prio 1/2): Part of the problem is that sometimes you see options you can choose and sometimes you don't. MC purchase buttons are displayed even if you don't have enough MC, while MXP buttons are just not there if you have enough GXP, i even thought it moved to the MXP spot until i checked. It would be a clearer 'UI langage' if you had all options displayed every time and just grey out options you currently can't use. Greying out here means either more pale but preserving the color (see above) or have something like a lock symbol attached to it (can't think of a more fitting symbol, but a lock is propably not the best choice).
- Add more information to purchase confirmations (Prio1 - as it's pretty simple): if there is an are-you-sure-popup, it should (apart from being clear what you spend and if it's one-time or all-time) display: price, old balance, new balance
- Give customers more UI options AKA expert mode (Prio 2/3): e.g., i'd most likely disable all CB-related popups, as i usually work towards the necessary balance for my next purchase, which would mean as soon as i see a popup, i'm about to spend MC. OTOH, rich players might be annoyed by MC popups as they have 300$ in their account because they have much more money than time. Suggestion: very conservative (MC&CB, no matter what amount), conservative (MC/CB, on CB only with higher amounts - default), MC only, none. Bonus point on side of PGI: users disabling the safenets have no right to complain anymore.
- Warn players if they're about to do something possibly stupid (Prio 1/2): conditional popups is what i think of. Spending GXP on a mech perk although you have enough MXP? (Red) popup! Spending MC on a mech you could buy with CB? Same!
- Make MC purchase an 'unlock' button (Prio ??): partly contradicting other suggestions or might replace them - but i think it might be a charming solution for some problems: don't start the purchasing process immidiately on the first click, that one would only unlock the button. So have a closed lock symbol on MC/GXP buttons, on first click it switches to an opened lock, next click starts the process. Downside: if not paying attention, you might think you misclicked some open space next to the button - could be countered by making the lock symbol flash on first click for some seconds.
Original post:
So first of all, i'd like to say this is not a rant or QQ or something (strange you always have to add a disclaimer like this). I understand THAT they won't refund anything bought with MC, and i understand WHY they don't do it.
What i wanted to say is: ...mainly already stated in the topic title, but you might as well read on about how this could be changed...
I'm ok with my fault, but i think - especially in the betalpha stage of this game - that there should be some rules surrounding the topic of refunds and other similar stuff that occurs inevitably. That would enable PGI as well as enable the players to appeal to these rules thus banishing the (somewhat) grey area it is now.
I'll start with proposing the following:
- A mech or item that was bought by MC or CB and has never been used should be refundable (on CB limited to items above 4,000,000 not to overload customer support)
- When the prices of items, upgrades or other stuff improve in the sense of getting cheaper, the corresponding amount of MC/CB should be refunded automatically to the account of players that bought it at the higher price (perhaps within a timeframe of... 1 month?)
But for now, here my (uncorrected / shortened to protect the innocent) conversation with the support in chronological order:
Me:
Quote
Hello MWO Support Team,
I just reached enough CB to buy my new mech (HBK 4SP SWOOSHBACK), but i
apparently bought it via MC by mistake instead. I haven't used the mech nor
modified it, but started a match when i noticed my mistake while matchmaker
was searching (i immediately quit the match and repaired mech to full so
it's as good as new).
Would it be possible to undo this purchase and delete the mech as i planned
to use my founder MC on other stuff like mechbays and hero/heavier mechs?
I just reached enough CB to buy my new mech (HBK 4SP SWOOSHBACK), but i
apparently bought it via MC by mistake instead. I haven't used the mech nor
modified it, but started a match when i noticed my mistake while matchmaker
was searching (i immediately quit the match and repaired mech to full so
it's as good as new).
Would it be possible to undo this purchase and delete the mech as i planned
to use my founder MC on other stuff like mechbays and hero/heavier mechs?
Them:
Quote
Hello ollo,
I'm sorry, but we don't refund anything right now related to a user error. However, we take good notes that the current system might be confusing, and will be working among improving the intuitiveness of the Mech lab in future patch updates.
I'm sorry, but we don't refund anything right now related to a user error. However, we take good notes that the current system might be confusing, and will be working among improving the intuitiveness of the Mech lab in future patch updates.
Me:
Quote
Hello XXX,
Well, that's not what i'd consider 'solved'. I'd ask for a contact to the complaint department, but assuming it doesn't exist i might as well reply. ;-)
I understand that you can't refund in general because of user errors. I read a similar post yesterday in the forums where someone bought a mech and realized after a few games he'd rather play another variant and didn't get the refund he requested. That's not the case here, I know which mech i wanted, I played it numerous times in closed beta, I had and have enough money to buy it, I just clicked the wrong button, I immediately noticed the mistake and took all actions i could and asked for your accommodation.
I know that being a founder doesn't mean im entitled to anything, let alone demanding a special treatment. But what it does mean, is that i put a lot of trust in the game and PGI, so much in fact that i gave you 120$ in advance for something that was (and is) far from being a finished game. The fact that me and (i hope) many other players have payed resp. are paying for a game in such a WIP, unpolished and buggy state which also means that we are willing to swallow up a lot of mistakes or quirks on your side, in various aspects. There are issues like an economic system that is imbalanced between trial/owned mechs or light/heavy mechs and that rewards not playing the game higher than actually playing the game, leading to other issues which i'm sure you know about. It also includes things that cost us time or money, like CTD on a game that we'd have won, upgrades that are worth only a fraction of what they cost (e.g. zoom, ferro fibrous) and things like having to pay three times to get bugged DHS installed, uninstalled and later reinstalled when they're fixed.
Many of these issues are of course subject to change, which also means that many will have spent time or money they'd have saved if they didn't choose to already support you in this early stage. In this light I also can't understand the "right now" part of your answer, as I'm pretty certain that the chances of a refund in a similar situation will only decrease once the interface improves. Currently, there are so many actions with partly severe consequences that are poorly implemented in the GUI, like not being aware that you don't actually buy upgrades (...that aren't even upgrades in some cases), placing the XP/GXP or MC/CB buttons right next to each other, not really distinguished by something like warning colors or a dollar sign or something. I think GXP spending doesn't even have a security popup which once caused me to spend GXP without need because the mouse pointer jumped some pixels. I don't even know if there was an extra "are you really sure" question when I bought the mech, because it doesn't matter as im even bothered with such a message when I install some 1000CB crap on a mech so I'd probably have clicked it away anyways if it exists (Vista UAC anyone?).
Is this the way you try to get money out of the players? Having an uninformative, misunderstandable, clunky GUI that encourages players to make mistakes that will make them lose time or money, but at least (in theory) increases your earnings? Is this why there is only info on how many hardpoints there are on variant, but not where? To trick people into buying something they realize later is not what they wanted or expected? Do you want people to click on MC by error, perhaps even considering swapping the buttons with every update? Apart from the fact that it's easy to confuse these artificial abbreviated currencies MC CB CMBMCBCMBCMBCBMC when not paying full attention?
I'm pretty sure this is not the case, that nothing of this is intentional, you want to improve the game and are doing everything you can to deliver a better experience. All i'm saying is that the community has to live with all this stuff that is still in the game because PGI forced the game into Open Beta (or most probably was forced to do it). And all i'm asking for is that you have the decency to forgive some mistakes on our side as we are forgiving the ones on yours.
If there is nothing that can be changed in the policy PGI is applying here I can swallow that I spent some dollars literally for nothing. But I'm not sure if I can swallow PGIs business ethics here, it's just not cool, not cool. And i feel sorry for all the others that fall for the so called "user errors" that have root problems deeper than PEBKAC...
Disappointed,
()((()
P.S.: I hope you have at least taken a lot of 'good notes' right now, if you want I can name a lot more issues with the GUI - but I'd have to charge you 1455MC for the service...
P.P.S.: when i read the abbreviated currencies, with the experiences burned in my head from my youth, i always think of this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Milton_Bradley_Company_logo.svg
Well, that's not what i'd consider 'solved'. I'd ask for a contact to the complaint department, but assuming it doesn't exist i might as well reply. ;-)
I understand that you can't refund in general because of user errors. I read a similar post yesterday in the forums where someone bought a mech and realized after a few games he'd rather play another variant and didn't get the refund he requested. That's not the case here, I know which mech i wanted, I played it numerous times in closed beta, I had and have enough money to buy it, I just clicked the wrong button, I immediately noticed the mistake and took all actions i could and asked for your accommodation.
I know that being a founder doesn't mean im entitled to anything, let alone demanding a special treatment. But what it does mean, is that i put a lot of trust in the game and PGI, so much in fact that i gave you 120$ in advance for something that was (and is) far from being a finished game. The fact that me and (i hope) many other players have payed resp. are paying for a game in such a WIP, unpolished and buggy state which also means that we are willing to swallow up a lot of mistakes or quirks on your side, in various aspects. There are issues like an economic system that is imbalanced between trial/owned mechs or light/heavy mechs and that rewards not playing the game higher than actually playing the game, leading to other issues which i'm sure you know about. It also includes things that cost us time or money, like CTD on a game that we'd have won, upgrades that are worth only a fraction of what they cost (e.g. zoom, ferro fibrous) and things like having to pay three times to get bugged DHS installed, uninstalled and later reinstalled when they're fixed.
Many of these issues are of course subject to change, which also means that many will have spent time or money they'd have saved if they didn't choose to already support you in this early stage. In this light I also can't understand the "right now" part of your answer, as I'm pretty certain that the chances of a refund in a similar situation will only decrease once the interface improves. Currently, there are so many actions with partly severe consequences that are poorly implemented in the GUI, like not being aware that you don't actually buy upgrades (...that aren't even upgrades in some cases), placing the XP/GXP or MC/CB buttons right next to each other, not really distinguished by something like warning colors or a dollar sign or something. I think GXP spending doesn't even have a security popup which once caused me to spend GXP without need because the mouse pointer jumped some pixels. I don't even know if there was an extra "are you really sure" question when I bought the mech, because it doesn't matter as im even bothered with such a message when I install some 1000CB crap on a mech so I'd probably have clicked it away anyways if it exists (Vista UAC anyone?).
Is this the way you try to get money out of the players? Having an uninformative, misunderstandable, clunky GUI that encourages players to make mistakes that will make them lose time or money, but at least (in theory) increases your earnings? Is this why there is only info on how many hardpoints there are on variant, but not where? To trick people into buying something they realize later is not what they wanted or expected? Do you want people to click on MC by error, perhaps even considering swapping the buttons with every update? Apart from the fact that it's easy to confuse these artificial abbreviated currencies MC CB CMBMCBCMBCMBCBMC when not paying full attention?
I'm pretty sure this is not the case, that nothing of this is intentional, you want to improve the game and are doing everything you can to deliver a better experience. All i'm saying is that the community has to live with all this stuff that is still in the game because PGI forced the game into Open Beta (or most probably was forced to do it). And all i'm asking for is that you have the decency to forgive some mistakes on our side as we are forgiving the ones on yours.
If there is nothing that can be changed in the policy PGI is applying here I can swallow that I spent some dollars literally for nothing. But I'm not sure if I can swallow PGIs business ethics here, it's just not cool, not cool. And i feel sorry for all the others that fall for the so called "user errors" that have root problems deeper than PEBKAC...
Disappointed,
()((()
P.S.: I hope you have at least taken a lot of 'good notes' right now, if you want I can name a lot more issues with the GUI - but I'd have to charge you 1455MC for the service...
P.P.S.: when i read the abbreviated currencies, with the experiences burned in my head from my youth, i always think of this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Milton_Bradley_Company_logo.svg
Them:
Quote
...not quoted because it was a rather nice personal reply that explained why they're not opening pandoras box and how he/she as a lowly 1st-level-support can't do anything about the elder's decision and escalating the ticked would not help in any way...
...and that's where i decided to make this a public discussion. It's not the fault of their support, it's not PGI being Gordon Gekko, it's the lack of regulation that would make a fair and comprehensible handling of these issues possible. (Oh, and it's of course my fault in a way, in another it's not really, but feel free to bash me on this)
So my suggestion is that you post your experience or view on this subject as well as your suggestions, so my fault can turn into a consolidated suggestion that helps us and PGI. If the rules are tight enough, they might even be implemented in the GUI, so there's no need to bother support with it (although i'll happily agree that there are more pressing issues, i'm thinking rather long-term here).
Edited by ollo, 15 November 2012 - 11:48 AM.
