57 replies to this topic

[buckX]

Leetskeet, on 20 November 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

One of us misunderstood the OP, and I'm not sure which so bare with me.

I don't think he said to disable torso twisting, but rather have your torso keep its heading while the legs turn independently.

As in, currently, if you turn left, the legs drag the torso left and you have to counteract this by moving your mouse right. The alternative is your legs turning left and your torso keeping its target until it reaches its max turning radius.

If that makes sense.

Or, if you want a different, useful setting that doesn't seem unreasonable for a mech to do, have "lock torso to target bearing."

[Top 4ce]

ebea51, on 14 November 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

I vote YES.

HOWEVER, i would NEVER use it. NEVER EVER EVER.

It would be good for the FPS scrubs and console plebs that cant wrap their head around the fact that legs and torso can move independantly - for the sake of simplicity and gameplay for those folk - yes, the option would be good...

Untill they finally get frustrated enough your cant pilot a mech like playing a FPS and turn it off and learn how to pilot a BattleMech properly

Darklord, on 14 November 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

At the VWE Battltech centers we had torso locked for all the beginers.After they played some games we taught them how the torso twist works.From then on it was up to them to use it or not.Made things a lot easier to learn the basics of playing the game for new players.
We also had the players broken up by groups.
1-25 mission were in one and 26 on up were in their own and could not go into the lower bracket.This too would help out the new players to get to learn how the game plays.

Bubba Wilkins, on 20 November 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Torso twisting is a fact of life. Disabling that turns you into nothing but an easy target.

Better to learn to use the existing system then simplify it and become cannon fodder.

I don't think you guys are understanding what is being suggested.

Leetskeet, on 20 November 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

One of us misunderstood the OP, and I'm not sure which so bare with me.

I don't think he said to disable torso twisting, but rather have your torso keep its heading while the legs turn independently.

As in, currently, if you turn left, the legs drag the torso left and you have to counteract this by moving your mouse right. The alternative is your legs turning left and your torso keeping its target until it reaches its max turning radius.

If that makes sense.

This is right. In MW4 the torso was independent and if you move your legs it wouldn't effect the facing of the torso till you maxed the torso turning radius.

As a new player getting into MWO (and training for it by playing MW4), this has been the biggest change and challenge for me to pilot a mech.

I also feel that having the torso independent from the legs gives the mech more of a tank feel and it looks cool when torso are moving around while the mech changes direction.

[Mister Blastman]

OP: Hell no! A feature like this will remove some of the most difficult skills to master in Mechwarrior.

NO WAY!

[Blaank]

Tanks in the 1980s have turrets that stay pointing straight when you turn the chassis. Now all tanks do this. Because it is a good thing.

Battletech does have a habbit of 1980s tech outdoing 3025 tech by a longshot.

[sekzwee]

i wouldnt mind this, would be much better to aid tracking than use the keys to turn your legs. Hell even if it was just an option to bind the leg turning to a second mouse i'd be happier( yes i'm quite quite ambidextrous, born that way people no need to worship me )

[Budor]

Insidious Johnson, on 14 November 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

So you want to take away the skill necessary to look one way and move another while shooting while your torso autotracks your current target? No. No thank you sir. Try getting better instead of making the game too easy. Thanks for at least not suggesting other players be nerfed.

This.

[Bromineberry]

Top 4ce, on 20 November 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

This is right. In MW4 the torso was independent and if you move your legs it wouldn't effect the facing of the torso till you maxed the torso turning radius.

As a new player getting into MWO (and training for it by playing MW4), this has been the biggest change and challenge for me to pilot a mech.

Was it really different in MW4? I can't remember because it has been years since I played this game.

I don't really see the problem the way it is now. When I started the game it took me about two minutes to get used to it. And I honestly don't see, how any "noob" will be confused by it...

Having the legs turn without having the torso turn at the same time sounds a little bit like an "autoaim light" to me, doesnt it? You simply have to aim "normally" at your target, and you can move around like you want and you still point at that target. Now you have to compensate your torso twist manually if you turn your whole mech while manoeuvring around, that makes MW special and makes it harder to "hit on the run".
In my opinion it makes the pilots (i.e. us) having to think more. Do I turn before I fire the gauss rifle, which would be better to avoid the oncomming second mech but has the risk of not hitting anymore because I have to align my aim new? Or do I fire first and THEN turn which will lead me into running towards the second mech? Or do I try firing while I turn? With the other system it simply would not matter. "Point and click", done.

I think "unlocking" the torso from the "leg twist" would really be dumbing down a system, that is fine the way it is now.

Edited by Bromineberry, 20 November 2012 - 07:26 AM.

[Mawai]

The reason that this would be a useful option is because the turn rate is a constant.

Turning is activated using "a" or "d" and the mech turns at a fixed constant rate when doing so ... you can't do small turns ... you can't vary your turn rate using the keyboard ... you are either turning or not.

As a result, you then have to compensate for the turn by moving the mouse in the opposite direction since your torso starts turning with the legs. There is really no reason for that ... the torso could just keep its current orientation as the legs turn until it hits the maximum torso twist at which point it has to track the legs (the mech has gyros after all ...).

On the other hand, if there was a way to control turn rate (which should be possible with proper joy stick support) then the issue is less pronounced since there won't be such a difference between "turning" and "not-turning".

[Top 4ce]

Bromineberry, on 20 November 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

Was it really different in MW4? I can't remember because it has been years since I played this game.

I don't really see the problem the way it is now. When I started the game it took me about two minutes to get used to it. And I honestly don't see, how any "noob" will be confused by it...

Having the legs turn without having the torso turn at the same time sounds a little bit like an "autoaim light" to me, doesnt it? You simply have to aim "normally" at your target, and you can move around like you want and you still point at that target. Now you have to compensate your torso twist manually if you turn your whole mech while manoeuvring around, that makes MW special and makes it harder to "hit on the run".
In my opinion it makes the pilots (i.e. us) having to think more. Do I turn before I fire the gauss rifle, which would be better to avoid the oncomming second mech but has the risk of not hitting anymore because I have to align my aim new? Or do I fire first and THEN turn which will lead me into running towards the second mech? Or do I try firing while I turn? With the other system it simply would not matter. "Point and click", done.

I think "unlocking" the torso from the "leg twist" would really be dumbing down a system, that is fine the way it is now.

I'm now used to it, but it's hard for me to hit something accurately at speed. And I'm all about speed. However...

Mawai, on 20 November 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

The reason that this would be a useful option is because the turn rate is a constant.

Turning is activated using "a" or "d" and the mech turns at a fixed constant rate when doing so ... you can't do small turns ... you can't vary your turn rate using the keyboard ... you are either turning or not.

As a result, you then have to compensate for the turn by moving the mouse in the opposite direction since your torso starts turning with the legs. There is really no reason for that ... the torso could just keep its current orientation as the legs turn until it hits the maximum torso twist at which point it has to track the legs (the mech has gyros after all ...).

On the other hand, if there was a way to control turn rate (which should be possible with proper joy stick support) then the issue is less pronounced since there won't be such a difference between "turning" and "not-turning".

... I feel Mawai has the right of it. It always comes up when I need to make a small adjustment to my orientation, but I over turn, then have to correct with my torso and I miss my opportunity for a clear shot.

It's frustrating and I don't think fixing it dumbs down the game. Currently, I either see a lot of players standing around in cover barely moving trying to line up shots or flying by their targets taking glancing shots. If implemented, the game would have a lot more flow to it and be an active moving simulator.

I can't see any benefits from keeping it as is, other than the "it takes skill" argument. I don't think it does, giving players the ability to fire effectively while on the move seems like a better option and I can't see anyone not benefiting from this.

I feel it's just counter intuitive as it currently stands.

[Dataman]

I always want to use this image to people suggesting 'make everything easier'


ATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATATA!!

[Bromineberry]

Top 4ce, on 20 November 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

I'm now used to it, but it's hard for me to hit something accurately at speed. And I'm all about speed. However...
[...]
It always comes up when I need to make a small adjustment to my orientation, but I over turn, then have to correct with my torso and I miss my opportunity for a clear shot.
[...]
I don't think fixing it dumbs down the game.

So what you're saying is, that you have problems hitting stuff while moving, that it would be easier hitting stuff if the torso wasn't "fixed" to the legs but this would not be "dumbing down" the game?
Then what is "making something more easy and making it require less skill" if not "dumbing down"?

Edited by Bromineberry, 20 November 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[Top 4ce]

Bromineberry, on 20 November 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

So what you're saying is, that you have problems hitting stuff while moving, that it would be easier hitting stuff if the torso wasn't "fixed" to the legs but this would not be "dumbing down" the game?
Then what is "making something more easy and making it require less skill" if not "dumbing down"?

Okay, call it dumbing down. I don't really care.

But considering every other MechWarrior game played that way and having independent torso makes for a better flowing game. Other than the the current "lets stand a couple of hundred yards from each other and shoot, while lights run around trying to hit each other, because we can't hit them" we have now.

[Bubba Wilkins]

Leetskeet, on 20 November 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

One of us misunderstood the OP, and I'm not sure which so bare with me.

I don't think he said to disable torso twisting, but rather have your torso keep its heading while the legs turn independently.

As in, currently, if you turn left, the legs drag the torso left and you have to counteract this by moving your mouse right. The alternative is your legs turning left and your torso keeping its target until it reaches its max turning radius.

If that makes sense.

Your right, I did misinterpret the intended meaning.

The current system is the more intuitive method. Inherent in the control scheme is that you will never be surprised when you hit full lock on the torso in either direction. Face forward, and turn left with your feet...and you are still facing forward with the path of travel with no additional input. There is no guess work when you hit full Torso twist as it happens via the same relative mouse movement in either direction. So each movement requires only one input.

Turn left & face forward: One movement, one input
Turn Left and Look Further Left: Two Movements ,Two inputs
Turn left and Look Right: Two movements, Two inputs
Look left or right: One input.

The proposed change:
Turn left and face forward: One Movement, two inputs.
Turn Left and Face Further Left: Two movements, two inputs.
Turn left and look Right: Two movements, one input
Look left or right: One movement, One input.

I think the first scheme is the more natural one and provides a better intuitive grasp of orientation. The second one breaks that synchronization and forces you to fight an auto-compensation mechanic. I think it would lead to worse directional awareness and more difficulty navigating obstructions then the current implementation. This would also lead to multiple twist rate calculations because now that the torso is compensating for the auto-counter twist...mouse movements will not be a static movement rate.

Oddly enough, the current scheme matches how cranes, excavators, tanks and other spinning platform type equipment operate. Modern tanks do have an feature to auto track on target lock, but basic function is to remain anchored in place relative to the platform.

Edited by Bubba Wilkins, 20 November 2012 - 09:01 AM.

[Shamoo]

Kamikaze71, on 14 November 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Like the title says, I believe there should be an option for the torso to not twist with the legs while running. I've noticed this need when your trying to line up a shot, but you have to avoid running into a wall so you turn your legs, but then you lose lock/being able to track your target effectively to continue to fire your weapons. What do you guys think?

I think this isn't a First Person Shooter, IT's a Mechwarrior game. Your asking for an option to remove one of the Classic and defining features of a MECH (torso twist). Why don't you just use the torso center Key if it bugs you that much? I personally don't want to see this game get turned into a nerfed down parody of Mechwarrior to satisfy those who are 3D spatially challenged.

Edited by Shamoo, 20 November 2012 - 09:12 AM.

[Sen]

I voted no, but I really really REALLY wanna see this implemented on 2nd thought:

It'll SKYROCKET my KDR

[Top 4ce]

Shamoo, on 20 November 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

I think this isn't a First Person Shooter, IT's a Mechwarrior game. Your asking for an option to remove one of the Classic and defining features of a MECH (torso twist). Why don't you just use the torso center Key if it bugs you that much? I personally don't want to see this game get turned into a nerfed down parody of Mechwarrior to satisfy those who are 3D spatially challenged.

Um, we aren't looking to remove torso twist.

We are looking to BRING BACK torso movement independent from the legs. That's a feature that has been in MechWarrior and other mech sims, except MWO.

Edited by Top 4ce, 20 November 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[Copious]

Hot Rod, on 15 November 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

Does people always need to spam threads?

Pro Tip: Don't post when you don't want to contribute to a discussion.

I was contributing, but here, let me explain my full stance with a paragraph instead of getting my point across with one sarcastic comment.

The current controls are EASY AS PIE to learn if you just sit down and try. Providing an easy mode that locks torsos and legs together would only serve to further gimp new players, because they are going to wonder how the heck people are circle strafing them while they can only charge and fire straight ahead. If they can't figure out how the current controls work, I don't expect that they'll be able to figure out how to turn off the easy mode so they can play the actual game of Mechwarrior, and not some bastardized Counter Strike version of it.

Torso twisting is integral to the game. It's what makes MWO different from Call of Duty and other FPS's. Either learn how to do it, or find another game, because you aren't going to be killing any decent pilot with your legs locked to your torso.

EDIT: And if you are honestly suggesting a mechanic that allows a mech to lock on and then automatically track it's target with it's torso...................... I don't even know how to explain how terrible of an idea that is if you can't see it already.

Edited by Copious, 20 November 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[Bremsspur]

Copious didn't get it...

I think there should be an option to chose between independent and "dependent" torso.

To independently move the legs of your mech wouldn't "dump it down" at all. Think of circling your enemy.
With the current implementation it's "very easy", just hold "d" or "a" at full speed and fire while holding your mouse still.
With the "old" (MW 1 - 4) implementation you have to turn your torso permanently to aim which is difficult because you have to constantly move the mouse in one direction.

In my opinion another problem is that the torso is following the movement of the arms (or the arms are quicker or whatever...). So while turning legs and counterturn torso the arms' crosshair doesn't match the torso's crosshair. With independent leg movement this would occur while circling an enemy. Therefore it would be nice to chose between these options according to the way you play.

I kinda miss the old implementation

Sorry for the bad english