152 replies to this topic

[James The Fox Dixon]

Terror Teddy, on 15 November 2012 - 05:47 AM, said:

Ok, lets go back to the lore you praise so highly and ultimately dodges with to avoid giving answers.

-Contracts for a job is usually negotiated BEFORE a mission for mercenaries. Including what, how, when and salvage can be aquired.

A mercenary company is also run as a loose military organization and have a chain of command - salvage is given to the COMPANY and not to individual mechwarrior so that they can continue to run the organization.

-House affiliated mechwarriors are SOLDIERS and gets a basic salary - they are career soldiers and essentially earn no money, or salvage for that matter.

-Lone wolves are in the same boat as mercenaries but in a worse negotiating position.

I'll skip the clans for now as they are unimportant.

You are not arguing LORE, you are arguing TT game mechanics and not how organizations within the lore functions.

Are there houses, mercenary commands, and clans implemented yet? No, your argument is a false one.

Lone Wolves are mercenaries and that you are correct on. However, under the rules and lore of BattleTech, that in this time period Lone Wolves pay is based upon the tech and mech weight as a basis for a contract. Field Manual: Mercenaries allows for the creation of 1 man merc units (lone wolves) up to corps level units. The pay is standardized at the base level under the Dragoon's Rating system. Both lone wolves and merc units can hire an outside negotiator for a single contract. Lone wolves are equal to merc units in this regard.

Lore is based upon and is part of the rules system. This is why they have section in every rule book explaining Lore and Rules.

The current system in the original post uses Lone Wolves as a basis since that it all we have in the game right now. When mercs and House units are implemented then House soldiers don't have to worry about repairs and rearms while mercs and lone wolves still have to.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 15 November 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

James The Fox Dixon, on 15 November 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

If the Mercenary Review and Bonding Commission says that a merc earns more due to having better tech and/or mech weight then that is lore. I didn't write the rules, but Fasa did and it is their universe.

That's all fine and dandy but won't work in an MMO. Lore is fine to get history but put this into the context of a F2P grind.

The END RESULT of your idea is that a more expensive mech earns more. Yes, your idea demands that people WORK for the money but that is ALL.

I see what you are getting at but it simply wont work.

Players bringing a more expensive mech to a match already receives a boon as they have a greater chance to survive and earn money - giving people a flat out bonus for just BRINGING a more expensive mech and tehn being able to get more of the salvage than other will simply be viewed as unfair.

And what about those NOT being mercenaries?

If we are gonna go balls to the walls about LORE then anyone affiliated with certain houses would not have ACCESS to certain mechs, or salvage for that matter - they would be soldiers getting a basic salary.

[ForceUser]

James, pass me that bucket of dirt, this hole you are digging for yourself isn't *quite* deep enough yet but we are close.

Explain to me the repair thing, is the repair thing not base don how much damage you take?

Are you telling me that getting cored (with no other parts damaged) costs the same to repair as having all your arms, a leg, all your ammo and weapons blown off?

In ym example you ONLY get cored. Your weapons and the rest do NOT get blown up. Will the repair cost be more or less if I had every piece of my mech blown up?

[James The Fox Dixon]

Terror Teddy, on 15 November 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

Snip

Not pertinent to the current discussion, so you're trolling.

[Terror Teddy]

James The Fox Dixon, on 15 November 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

Are there houses, mercenary commands

You brought up the lore, not I, neither did you say that your post was limited to what was currently implemented.

Houses and mercenaries exists as individuals can choose an affiliation - such an affiliation could easily be providing bonuses and consequences.

1: Mercenaries: Salvage / limited amount of equipment
2: Houses: House Mechs only / Cheaper Repairs / no salvage
3: Lone wolves: All is available but perhaps more expensive

[James The Fox Dixon]

ForceUser, on 15 November 2012 - 05:56 AM, said:

James, pass me that bucket of dirt, this hole you are digging for yourself isn't *quite* deep enough yet but we are close.

Explain to me the repair thing, is the repair thing not base don how much damage you take?

Are you telling me that getting cored (with no other parts damaged) costs the same to repair as having all your arms, a leg, all your ammo and weapons blown off?

In ym example you ONLY get cored. Your weapons and the rest do NOT get blown up. Will the repair cost be more or less if I had every piece of my mech blown up?

I'm not the one that said that all repairs would be 20k. You did, so stop projecting.

Terror Teddy, on 15 November 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Snip

Not pertinent to the current discussion, so you're trolling.

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

[color=#000000]Field Manual: Mercenaries (Revised), Page 162.[/color]

[color=#000000]There is a drastic loophole in these rules that has survived, unchallenged, for what... three editions now?[/color]

[color=#000000]The loophole is this: A merc unit's payroll determines their contract pay, not their contribution to the employer's military abilities. Let me boil it down:[/color]

[color=#000000]Assuming a contract multiplier of 5, a BLR-1G Battlemaster pilot who owns his own 'mech brings an 85 ton assault 'mech to the unit, plus his skills as a Regular Mechwarrior. His salary, as a regular mechwarrior is 1,500 c-bills per month. To put this into perspective, a meal at a typical restaurant (say, Denny's) costs 4 C-bills. (MW:RPG 3rd Ed. Pg. 157) I can get a good meal at a local restaurant for about $10 without going to a high-class joint (That's drink, entree, sharing an appetizer, and tipping the server). Given the average role-player's extravagant tastes for their characters, this seems a reasonable comparison. I figure a C-bill has the buying power of $2.50 USD. This means our 'mechwarrior's Salary here in Maine, USA would be about $3,750 a month. He makes about $40,000 a year before taxes. That seems appropriate.[/color]

[color=#000000]An infantryman, however, makes only half that. $20,000 a year seems just a little shy for a soldier, but given that infantry aren't as valued by Inner Sphere forces, I guess it makes sense. (Actually, I just checked, the US Army pays E-3 Infantry Soldiers around $17,000/year so the Inner sphere seems to value its infantrymen MORE, but keep in mind that a mercenary infantry soldier has to pay his own room and board.)[/color]

[color=#000000]The infantryman brings a 7.62mm rifle, or perhaps a 10mm pulse laser rifle if he's really ritzy. Plus, because of the way CBT handles infantry, he comes with 27 of his buddies. So far, no problem, all his buddies make jack squat too.[/color]

[color=#000000]Okay. So what does an employer pay for the BLR-1G?[/color]

[color=#000000]Well, with our negotiated contract multiplier, his salary of 1,500 means that the unit gets paid 7,500 C-bills per month more for having him along to fight! WOW!!!! [/color][color=#000000] No wonder the successor houses love to hire mercenaries!!! Why buy your own BLR-1G for tens of millions of C-bills when you can rent one for 7,500 per month???!!!!! This is the sweeeeeetest deal ever![/color]

Do you really want to use LORE as your foundation sir. Cause we Warriors are being grossly over payed... according to CBT LORE in a Merc Handbook!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 November 2012 - 06:03 AM.

[Terror Teddy]

James The Fox Dixon, on 15 November 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

Not pertinent to the current discussion, so you're trolling.

You have a fascinating way of ignoring questions you do not WANT to answer when it gets uncomfortable. You obviously only want to talk to people who fully agree with you and not discuss your own proposals in regards to the drawbacks and consequences they also create.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 November 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

Do you really want to use LORE as your foundation sir. Cause we Warriors are being grossly over payed... but CBT LORE in a Merc Handbook!

You missed out the rest of that chapter that goes on to explain how the system works. Yes, it is cheaper to hire mercs, but mercs can do quite well.

[ForceUser]

not ALL reapirs jeez, where the heck did you get that mate 0.o

The repair in THAT situation, with THAT jenner getting cored ONLY woudl cost 20k to fix. Since I can rely on the enemy team to usually go for the CT on a light mech standing still it means that the repair costs will usually be around 20k. My income would vary between 200k to over 400k.

And not by playing the game as it's supposed to but abusing your system. Would that even make remotely any kind of sense in lore?

No it would not.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Terror Teddy, on 15 November 2012 - 06:02 AM, said:

You have a fascinating way of ignoring questions you do not WANT to answer when it gets uncomfortable. You obviously only want to talk to people who fully agree with you and not discuss your own proposals in regards to the drawbacks and consequences they also create.

So far you nor anyone else has brought anything up pertinent to the discussion and in the context of the original post.

On a related note, every proposal to improve the game is flamed and trolled by a small group of founders because they do not want the game to improve. Where are your solutions? You don't have one, so you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

What is everyone else's solution? Post them up because I haven't seen a single one of you that are trolling this thread and others make a single constructive post to actually improve the game. You want to know why the developers are no longer listening? It's because of this minority looking out for their own self-interest and not for the good of the entire community by suggesting improvements to the game.

[Terror Teddy]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 November 2012 - 06:01 AM, said:

Do you really want to use LORE as your foundation sir. Cause we Warriors are being grossly over payed... according to CBT LORE in a Merc Handbook!

That's it, Im not starting a mercenary company.

Im getting a Mech rental company.

I'm pretty sure the the IS houses have pilots. They can get my mechs for the following prices:

Light: 1000c /m
Medium: 2000c /m
Heavy: 3000c/m
Assault: 4000c/m

This is of course without a pilot.

I have a separate company for personnel called: MECHpower (no affiliation with Manpower)

If they break it they have to pay it and the contract also adds cost for milage, wear and tear and other costs.

Why be a mechwarrior when I can be a deskwarrior.

[Terror Teddy]

James The Fox Dixon, on 15 November 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

So far you nor anyone else has brought anything up pertinent to the discussion and in the context of the original post.

And the questions I have asked? The questions that are being RAISED by your idea are not pertinent questions? Possible side effects that Im sure you HAVE though of and HAVE answers for?

Why do you think I write these things? For fun? I want actual answers to those questions because I want to know if you have included those problems INTO your idea.

Essentially: HAVE YOU THOUGH THE IDEA THROUGH.

All i get is that you refuse to answer a bloody simple question because I have concerns and not BLINDLY agree with you.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Terror Teddy, on 15 November 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

And the questions I have asked? The questions that are being RAISED by your idea are not pertinent questions? Possible side effects that Im sure you HAVE though of and HAVE answers for?

Why do you think I write these things? For fun? I want actual answers to those questions because I want to know if you have included those problems INTO your idea.

Essentially: HAVE YOU THOUGH THE IDEA THROUGH.

All i get is that you refuse to answer a bloody simple question because I have concerns and not BLINDLY agree with you.

WHERE IS YOUR SOLUTION? You don't have one.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 15 November 2012 - 06:15 AM.

[ForceUser]

Aww at conspiracy theories already

Regardless, the reason why this one specifically is not being lauded as the best thing since sliced cheese is because it is so easily abusable.

In fact, me as a founder or anyone that has premium time would LOVE this system.

You see that 400k I would make?

Let's add a cool 50% to it.

No in fact, lets add 25% on top of that for a founder jenner.

That's right ladies and gentlemen, I would make over 700k cbills in one match in 3-4min of abusing the proposed system.

In fact, I think I've changed my mind. I fully support this proposal. I am not sure what I'll be *doing* with all that money. I could do a repeat of that time we were getting a mill a match and buy every single variant ever in 2 weeks worth of play.

That's right, every single one, even the centurions and dragons

[Joseph Mallan]

James The Fox Dixon, on 15 November 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

You missed out the rest of that chapter that goes on to explain how the system works. Yes, it is cheaper to hire mercs, but mercs can do quite well.

An Elite Assault MechWarrior Captain makes 3,200 C-Bills a month and does not repair his own Mech. Even using the information applied for how much a Unit is paid for said warrior, 15,000 C-bills a month isn't going to pay for a single ton of AMS ammo.

Maintainance is figured at around 900 C-bills a month. Not per Drop per MONTH.

I ran a campaign for mercs. IF you are the Dragoons you get the golden contracts, If you're not, well the average is going to be 5,000 C-bills per month for you and 25%-50% repairs. Good luck staying viable. Also, My name is in the thank you credits of some of those Merc Handbooks, so please don't say I am lacking knowledge on how the rules you are trying to apply here work. I tested them, and debated them with the writers and Devs.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 November 2012 - 06:17 AM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

ForceUser, on 15 November 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

Self-interest post

WHERE IS YOUR SOLUTION?

Joseph Mallan, on 15 November 2012 - 06:13 AM, said:

An Elite Assault MechWarrior Captain makes 3,200 C-Bills a month and does not repair his own Mech. Even using the information applied for how much a Unit is paid for said warrior, 15,000 C-bills a month isn't going to pay for a single ton of AMS ammo.

Maintainance is figured at around 900 C-bills a month. Not per Drop per MONTH.

I ran a campaign for mercs. IF you are the Dragoons you get the golden contracts, If you're not, well the average is going to be 5,000 C-bills per month for you and 25%-50% repairs.

Which comes from the Creating a Mercenary Unit chapter not the contract chapter. Salary falls under Overhead in the Contract chapter. Next.

[Terror Teddy]

James The Fox Dixon, on 15 November 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

WHERE IS YOUR SOLUTION? You don't have one.

I dub thee James The Troll Dixon.

[Terick]

In a word, NO!

I remember running multiple merc units with the rules, it always came down to a few unlucky battles int eh beginning of a merc unit meant the unit was dead, no matter the skill of the players.

There should NOT be a pay increase because of your gear. I look at it the same way that contracts are supposed to be awarded ( I say supposed to because of corruption having influence on the system in real life). The lowest bidder gets the job. It doesn't' matter if the company doing the work has more or less workers, it doesn't matter if they have more advanced equipment. If the job gets done they get paid. If not then the company hires the next lowest bidder.

Reputation can make a difference that is they look at it and slightly skew the bids based on previous work done. Nothing as major as your suggesting.

I'm more interested in a flat payment for mission type with very minor changes in pay based on how well the team performed. Because an assault job is an assault job.

Really this would only work for merc units, since house units would be payed the same regardless of what they were driving. I would also like to see merc units payed a flat sum of cash for the contract that is given by the house. But it doesn't seem they are going that way. Looks like Merc units will be able to seize land on the front lines.

Edited by Terick, 15 November 2012 - 06:20 AM.

[ForceUser]

I dunno, the system currently in place is decent, needs a bit of tweaking to be sure but since I have not yet played without premium time (Should be soon now though when the 'free' time runs out) I'll need to get back to you on that.

All I know is that with premium time I've managed to buy and outfit 3 mediums, 2 heavies and an assault while selling one of those mediums and heavies and any equipment I don't use on any of my mechs in 333 games.

Someone without premium time would need to play 500 matches to match that.

Sure beats the snot out of WOT that's for sure.