40 replies to this topic

[Flit Asuno]

Roadbuster, on 15 November 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

It's a problem because it has a negative effect for normal players.
One of the team afk can be managed (why do people select an Atlas if they go afk?) but I've been in so many groups where 1-2 were afk, another 1-2 had disconnect or we started with 1-2 players missing.
It's no fun if a game suddenly turns into 4-6vs8.
I know alot of the disconnects, missing players and seemingly afk players (black screen, 4fps bug) happen because of bugs and should be fixed in the future.

To reduce the number of real afk farmers I'd change the reward system to reduced base rewards but increased rewards for actions like assists, spotting, destroying parts,...
So players will try to play better to increase their income.
This would also benefit good players who did alot to help their team even if they lost.

Regarding bots, the only solution seems to be reporting suspicious activity and hope they get a ban.

The problem is that changing the rewards system to give bigger bonuses is unlikely to happen. They've said multiple times they had the economy near to "where they wanted it." back when things were even stingier. It took 90% of so of the playerbase flipping their **** in order for them to put in slightly higher rewards for win/loss. Right now, it's pretty fair to say that they think the current system gives incentive for people to buy premium bonuses or a mech like the wang.

[Usagi]

Flit Asuno, on 16 November 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

The problem is that changing the rewards system to give bigger bonuses is unlikely to happen. They've said multiple times they had the economy near to "where they wanted it." back when things were even stingier. It took 90% of so of the playerbase flipping their **** in order for them to put in slightly higher rewards for win/loss. Right now, it's pretty fair to say that they think the current system gives incentive for people to buy premium bonuses or a mech like the wang.

you can change the reward system without changing the economy. You just swing it so that the average game still pays roughly the same amount of money...but instead of 80% of it coming from the static win/loss factor, 80% of it comes from the during-play actions. Same money in the economy,less bots and farmers getting something out of it.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Okay, in order to seperate the farmers from the "normal disconnects through crash" we FIRST need to fix the crash to desktop issue. I'm crashing every 7th game and with this rate, it is highly possible, that I will be marked as farmer, but I just crashed.

After the fix is out, there are several ways to deal with it. The first point is to increase the money you get from a good match by a very high amount. Lets say, that you get 20k for a win and 0k for a loss. Every damage-point you will deal gives you 500 credits. So with an average of 150 damage dealt per match (Newbies or trial mechs) you get with this alone 75.000 on C-Bills.

Something like that. Balancing out the action for the end-summary and putting away if you win or lose by a fair amount should sovle the problem. So a mech that is afk will deal no damage and thus it will not get any money. It will not kill, so it wont get any money. It will not spot, so it won't get any money. Everything that is only achievable through active action should be honored.

BUT: This makes it hard for small mechs to get a their money back, so they should get a bonus modyficator. This could be solves by a tonnage-ratio. Lets say a 25-ton mech deals 1 point of damage, then it is 4 times the worth of a 100 ton to deal 1 point of damage. This way, piloting a light mech while dealing much damage can be a gold fountain.

[Usagi]

Farmers aren't disconnects. A disconnect garners a negation of rewards entirely (at least I believe it does). You can sort of tell the difference between a farmer and a disconnect if you kill them., If someone is "there" (meaning they are not disconnected) it will say X has killed Y. If it's a disconnect, you will just see "X has killed" followed by no other name.

That's my experience at least. I'm not sure if it's 100% true, but I know i see the lack of a name on who got killed when i see K/D farmers disconnecting to preserve their K/D stat and i also see it when randomly destroying a mech that's just standing there.

[Spirit of the Wolf]

Shevchen, on 16 November 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Okay, in order to seperate the farmers from the "normal disconnects through crash" we FIRST need to fix the crash to desktop issue. I'm crashing every 7th game and with this rate, it is highly possible, that I will be marked as farmer, but I just crashed.

After the fix is out, there are several ways to deal with it. The first point is to increase the money you get from a good match by a very high amount. Lets say, that you get 20k for a win and 0k for a loss. Every damage-point you will deal gives you 500 credits. So with an average of 150 damage dealt per match (Newbies or trial mechs) you get with this alone 75.000 on C-Bills.

Something like that. Balancing out the action for the end-summary and putting away if you win or lose by a fair amount should sovle the problem. So a mech that is afk will deal no damage and thus it will not get any money. It will not kill, so it wont get any money. It will not spot, so it won't get any money. Everything that is only achievable through active action should be honored.

BUT: This makes it hard for small mechs to get a their money back, so they should get a bonus modyficator. This could be solves by a tonnage-ratio. Lets say a 25-ton mech deals 1 point of damage, then it is 4 times the worth of a 100 ton to deal 1 point of damage. This way, piloting a light mech while dealing much damage can be a gold fountain.

Well, I've never seen that bonus idea mentioned before; (no, seriously -- no sarcasm.)
And I actually think it sounds good, but not at a 4x rate. Maybe at...~2x tops, and that's for the lightest mech in the game.
I think making it 4x would be a bit much, because I can do a lot of damage in my jenner, and a commando can still mount an LRM pod, which can do quite a bit of damage from a safe distance. (Well, relatively safe.)
On the other hand, this would also help newer players to get more CB quickly, and to increase in skills in those smaller mechs -- they earn more CB for doing more damage in them, giving them an incentive to play using them, which, because of how much they use them, will make them much more familiar with how to pilot those mechs properly.

Just my $0.02 (Or whatever currency you use; you know what I mean.)

[Elder Thorn]

I as a player can not take part in this poll, because i do not know how many of those people are crashed and how many are 'farming'

[Kanaric]

a major concern? Most of the afk people are afk because THEY CRASHED

What a phantom problem. I hope they don't cave to whiners on this and fix the actual issue which is crashing.... one person I play with crashes almost every other game.

Seriously why do people always comes to the most insane conclusion first? Bads whining about people better than them "hacking" and now ******** soapbox standers whining about people who crashed "farming".

The fact that someone thinks botting exists in this game is hilarious.... idiocy knows no ends.

Wipe the pizza grease and Cheetos stains off your keyboards and just play and wait for the crashing to be fixed

Edited by Kanaric, 16 November 2012 - 05:58 PM.

[Elder Thorn]

Kanaric, on 16 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

a major concern? Most of the afk people are afk because THEY CRASHED

What a phantom problem. I hope they don't cave to whiners on this and fix the actual issue which is crashing.... one person I play with crashes almost every other game.

Seriously why do people always comes to the most insane conclusion first? Bads whining about people better than them "hacking" and now ******** soapbox standers whining about people who crashed "farming".

The fact that someone thinks botting exists in this game is hilarious.... idiocy knows no ends.

oh i am sure it exists. It also exists in WoT. The bots over there are actually far enough to take part in a fight - not ultra effective, but they move and shoot.

Before they learned that, they would just make sure the playyer would log into as many matches as possible to always get minimum XP and c-bill payouts.

But i agree with you, that we would first need to fix the crashing problems, before we can talk about how many people are afking because i really think 8/10 'afkers' are just crashed

[Usagi]

Kanaric, on 16 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

a major concern? Most of the afk people are afk because THEY CRASHED

What a phantom problem. I hope they don't cave to whiners on this and fix the actual issue which is crashing.... one person I play with crashes almost every other game.

Seriously why do people always comes to the most insane conclusion first? Bads whining about people better than them "hacking" and now ******** soapbox standers whining about people who crashed "farming".

The fact that someone thinks botting exists in this game is hilarious.... idiocy knows no ends.

Wipe the pizza grease and Cheetos stains off your keyboards and just play and wait for the crashing to be fixed

especially those so called "suicide farmers" they crash so hard tat it strips all the armor off their commandos, leaves them unrepaired from their last match AND sends them on the most direct rout right into the enemy...these crashes are really bad.

[Flit Asuno]

Kanaric, on 16 November 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

a major concern? Most of the afk people are afk because THEY CRASHED

What a phantom problem. I hope they don't cave to whiners on this and fix the actual issue which is crashing.... one person I play with crashes almost every other game.

Seriously why do people always comes to the most insane conclusion first? Bads whining about people better than them "hacking" and now ******** soapbox standers whining about people who crashed "farming".

The fact that someone thinks botting exists in this game is hilarious.... idiocy knows no ends.

Wipe the pizza grease and Cheetos stains off your keyboards and just play and wait for the crashing to be fixed

How's the yellowbrick road treating dorothy lately?

[Red Klown X]

Do you feel afk farming and bots are a problem right now?

yes it will became a serious problem when the game will start live .


What kind of measures should be taken? This is a multiple choice question, so you can select all the measures you agree with.

account delete , ip ban .

But the game will look at live like another counter strike with giant robot , so we have to learn to play with pug , farmingbot , aimbot and all the stuff that you can find in all fps .

[IceWendigo]

THough I have witnessed many types of bugs that could be perceived as bot or afk on purpose, Ive never seen an actual bot myself (I know they exist because Ive seen a video and people keep complaining about it)


Why not give ZERO cbills and XP, unless, you cause at least 1 point of damage *to an enemy* OR Cap for at least 1 second?


Shouldnt this reduce the incentive for bots, without penalizing anyone that's playing?

Edited by IceWendigo, 17 November 2012 - 07:44 AM.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

One point of damage... what if you build a mech that got only tag and NARC? I can imagine building a mech without any harmful weapon system just for scouting. Still, this is a possible solution.

[CompproB237]

klownnection, on 17 November 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

But the game will look at live like another counter strike with giant robot , so we have to learn to play with pug , farmingbot , aimbot and all the stuff that you can find in all fps .

*shudders at thought of when C-Bills can be sent to other players*
> suddenly AFK-Farming bots start text-chat spamming China-based websites attempting to sell C-Bills for USD

Edited by CompproB237, 17 November 2012 - 12:28 PM.

[DivineEvil]

+ No rewards for the win or lose.
+ All rewards for the performance.
+ reward for the unfinished capture.
+ reward for blocking the capture per time (defense).
+ kill reward for the most damage done to the target, otherwise assist reward.
+ top damage among team reward.
+ Overall damage reward, multiplied by per-target (more focus = more reward)
+ players not moving and players not shooting recieve nothing and pay nothing for the repairs (bugs can cause afk)
+ multiplied rewards when outnumbered
+ salvage grants you damaged items, not CBills
- geometrically growing (square function) Frienly-Fire penalties instead of friendly kill penalty.
- minor overheat shutdowns penalty.

Edited by DivineEvil, 17 November 2012 - 01:56 PM.

[GiantMech]

Hello all .

My thoughts are that the credit farming is going to remain a large part of the game. In every Mechwarrior / Battletech game (including the ones i run on the table:) have c-bills in them. and there are never enough. because thats the way of life . there is never enough. SOO

In order to help mechwarriors keep track of there c-bill income vs expense . what mech commander JUST looks at the amount in the account.

A match breakdown showing income is already in place . if we could also show the expensies for ammo and armor and structure ect that would be a great tool.

ALso. the new technologies that are coming out (ferro fibrus endo steel ect) are they in cannon i mean are they in teh mech warrior universe before the clans ?! its my understanding that they developed these "Inner Sphere" versions AFTER the clans invaded and they were able to get samples as it were.

either way any mech game thats a mech game has these endo steel ferro fibrus and the like so no harm having them in the beta. however they are NEW technology CUTTING edge stuff so of course there repair should be comparibly high to the standard tech armor structure heat sinks engines weapons n such.

1. income vs expense breakdown
2. Old tech viability due to avalibility (low cost of repair)

Thank you for reading my rant lol may the farce be with our developers i pray for an amazing mech experiance that will be around to stay.

p.s. where is my solarus arena ! ! !

[Usagi]

DivineEvil, on 17 November 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

+ No rewards for the win or lose.
+ All rewards for the performance.
+ reward for the unfinished capture.
+ reward for blocking the capture per time (defense).
+ kill reward for the most damage done to the target, otherwise assist reward.
+ top damage among team reward.
+ Overall damage reward, multiplied by per-target (more focus = more reward)
+ players not moving and players not shooting recieve nothing and pay nothing for the repairs (bugs can cause afk)
+ multiplied rewards when outnumbered
+ salvage grants you damaged items, not CBills
- geometrically growing (square function) Frienly-Fire penalties instead of friendly kill penalty.
- minor overheat shutdowns penalty.

MY thoughts on these ideas...for those that care.

+ No rewards for the win or lose.
I'm not a fan of this...I'm a fan of _reduced_ rewards...but taking out the icnentiv to win is a bad idea. I'd even be okay with 0 for a loss (as long as otehr factors are icnreased, both in numebr and value) and a smaller bit for winning. At least in thist current game mode.

+ All rewards for the performance.
Basically covered jsut above here

+ reward for the unfinished capture.
I like this, sometimes all someone can do is try and cap. it would be nice to see some recognition of that effort.

+ reward for blocking the capture per time (defense).
I also like this...I've taken part is some really tense games that revolved around keeping people in/kicking people out of a base to try and defend or cap it. And, for reason similar to what i stated above. Of course, it would only count if you are actually blocking an effort to cap...not just standing in the base square.

+ kill reward for the most damage done to the target, otherwise assist reward.
THis one I like in spirit...but it's tricky. say you have someone working on a target, and they peel 40 armor off their torso(s), legs and arms...then a skilled player comes in and pop pops them in the ehad, and they go down. The first player did the "most" damage...but the second player almost entierly killed it themself. in a numerical sense (this is ignoring battlefirld distraction factors and stuff). So, something would have to be figured out there.

+ top damage among team reward.
This one i'm not really for...because it implies that damage is the sole most important role anyone can have. I'd rather see that damage, in egernal, recieve a better reward, along with things like spotting, capping, etc. Just reward all the roles more, not one especially.

+ Overall damage reward, multiplied by per-target (more focus = more reward)
I'm not 100% sure what this means...I think you're basically sut saying "reward focus fire/coordination". That I'm for.

+ players not moving and players not shooting recieve nothing and pay nothing for the repairs (bugs can cause afk)
I think this is somethign that needs to be addressed after crash bugs are more udner controll. when that happens, i'm all for no reward and still having to pay the costs (and give rewards to the opponent for doing whatever creates rewards to you). But, that is also in a theoretical world where crashes are reletivly rare, and paying a penalty for crashing is something that happens maybe once a week (if you play a lot) and is just ind of annoying, tops.

+ multiplied rewards when outnumbered
I think this one would not be an issue once crashing and stuff is fixed, ala the above statement.

+ salvage grants you damaged items, not CBills
I don't like this at all. For one, it will create too much money (salvage is only a small percentage) second it will create a very imbalanced end-game reward distribution. For example "our salvage is 5 medium lasers, this flamer, and an XL300 engine...who gets a million c-bills and screws everyone else?".
- geometrically growing (square function) Frienly-Fire penalties instead of friendly kill penalty.
I don't often see friendly fire. I've been popped by my team (not killed, usually) a few times. either by accident in the "exploring my weapons" at the start of a match, or because i speed infront of their shot. It's also happened vice versa. I rear cored an ally once, because they ran into my shot. IT happens, but it's not a huge problem I have seen.

- minor overheat shutdowns penalty.
I really don't like this...sometimes overheating is a good option. you look at your heat, your opponents damage HUD and say "if i alpha, i migth take them down" and you fire it all, and overheat, and cross your fingers. you shouldn't be penalized for that past the possibility of it not working, and getting pummeled.

[DivineEvil]

Quote

I'm not a fan of this...I'm a fan of _reduced_ rewards...but taking out the icnentiv to win is a bad idea. I'd even be okay with 0 for a loss (as long as otehr factors are icnreased, both in numebr and value) and a smaller bit for winning. At least in thist current game mode.

The only way to win in a game such as MWO is to provide as good performance as possible. You can be AFK and get nothing. You can just stay like a *** and get very little. You can just run in by yourself, get focused fast and get just a bit more. Or you can perform your role in a team and get the best you can get. You can be last man standing and fighting to the last piece of Ferro-Fibrous and be rewarded for that.

At the same time, giving CBills for wins or loses is the core reason for AFK farming - you getting money even if you doing absolutely nothing and setting up your team for a undeserved defeat. You're getting a profit just for starting a game. That's not ok. And, by your suggestion, if you just gone AFK and let your team being stomped with little effort, they will not recieve any reward. Having rewards solely for the performance is a way to promote active teamplay, and it's the question of the reward amount balance to make all classes equal in terms of profit and risk.

Quote

+ reward for blocking the capture per time (defense).
I also like this...I've taken part is some really tense games that revolved around keeping people in/kicking people out of a base to try and defend or cap it. And, for reason similar to what i stated above. Of course, it would only count if you are actually blocking an effort to cap...not just standing in the base square.

It should be capped though, so people could not abuse it.

Quote

THis one I like in spirit...but it's tricky. say you have someone working on a target, and they peel 40 armor off their torso(s), legs and arms...then a skilled player comes in and pop pops them in the ehad, and they go down. The first player did the "most" damage...but the second player almost entierly killed it themself. in a numerical sense (this is ignoring battlefirld distraction factors and stuff). So, something would have to be figured out there.

Ummm, headshot reward that doesnt work on AFKs. That's pretty much covers it. All other ways to finish off the enemy are relatively equal or already implemented (component destruction).

Quote

+ top damage among team reward.
This one i'm not really for...because it implies that damage is the sole most important role anyone can have. I'd rather see that damage, in egernal, recieve a better reward, along with things like spotting, capping, etc. Just reward all the roles more, not one especially.

Question of reward amount really. Spotting is already quite the free money for everone who cares. Capping isn't, unfortunately. Basically it just rewards skilled Assaults and Heavies for what they're good for - dealing tons of damage.

Quote

+ players not moving and players not shooting recieve nothing and pay nothing for the repairs (bugs can cause afk)
I think this is somethign that needs to be addressed after crash bugs are more udner controll. when that happens, i'm all for no reward and still having to pay the costs (and give rewards to the opponent for doing whatever creates rewards to you). But, that is also in a theoretical world where crashes are reletivly rare, and paying a penalty for crashing is something that happens maybe once a week (if you play a lot) and is just ind of annoying, tops.

I'm just looking at it on today's situation, where many keep blame people for AFK, while generally it's not really their fault.

Quote

I don't often see friendly fire. I've been popped by my team (not killed, usually) a few times. either by accident in the "exploring my weapons" at the start of a match, or because i speed infront of their shot. It's also happened vice versa. I rear cored an ally once, because they ran into my shot. IT happens, but it's not a huge problem I have seen.

I did seen two people shooting each-other entire match, they screwed the game and got no penalties whatsoever. That should not be tolerated. Doesn't matter if it's rare or not.

Quote

I really don't like this...sometimes overheating is a good option. you look at your heat, your opponents damage HUD and say "if i alpha, i migth take them down" and you fire it all, and overheat, and cross your fingers. you shouldn't be penalized for that past the possibility of it not working, and getting pummeled.

That's why it is minor. Some people, at the same time, just don't want to learn heat management, packing tons of lasers with no heat sinks. Of course they got pummeled all the time. Getting an alpha's damage and a kill might just cover the penalty over.

What I'm about is to use CB reward/penalty in order to regulate good and bad performance without votekick/etc secondary systems that are easy to abuse. In my experience there's a plenty of way to abuse the system (AFK farming is our tough reality), but figuring out the scheme that has little space for exploit isn't hard when you'd put some thought in it.

[Red Klown X]

there is no need to make a post about bot and farming , that s will exist when the game will be live , whatever they do .

And one important point , if a game dont have their bot that mean he will soon stop .

So just wait and see , the only thing that we can do against bot / farming , it s report them ...

[_Rorschach_]

DivineEvil, others said:

lots of valid points

I definitely agree with some of those.

Rewards for unfinished captures should be implemented. I'd think just below half the capture reward would be appropriate for a near successful capture, 1/4 for one that got to 50% and so on.

Base defense should also be rewarded, but:
all mechs would have to spawn outside the base perimeter so an afk Atlas doesn't simply collect rewards for standing there while afk.
the rewards would have to be either quite low or capped at a low amount to prevent abuse (both teams standing around in each others base to grind C-bills)

Additional rewards for winning outnumbered would be interesting (perhaps more salvage? there's not as many pilots to divide it between). But optimally there's always the same number of pilots on both teams anyway, so not a priority.



Friendly fire penalties would be useful. Teamkills hardly ever happen due to the fact that we are piloting pretty heavily armored walking tanks. But many players are careless with their aim and damage teammates when there is no real need for it. The penalty should be small though. I think many people don't even realize there is friendly fire, just a small red number on the results screen might just be enough to get them to avoid unnecessary team damage. Also LRM boats without line of sight might not even realize they are damaging their own mates in PUG games.


Some I have concerns about.

Since the mechs have not a simple health bar but use a more complex system I don't think the kill should go to whoever did the most damage overall to a target. Maybe they did. But maybe they only survived the fight because someone else shot off that arm with the AC20. Or because a capable sniper dealt a grand total of 33 damage, but all to the 'pit before said AC20 blew them up. The kill should go to whoever got the finishing blow. After all assist awards are the same, so there's not even a disadvantage there.

Also I agree that top damage is not the most important statistic in the game. Even the score board reflects that with ranking players based on XP earned. Rewarding it would benefit heavier mechs and brawler roles over lighter mechs and sniper/scout/striker/support roles that might have been much more important for the victory.

Salvaging parts would be bad imo. First off, you would gain far to much C-bills that way. And distributing the loot between the winning team's pilots would be problematic.

A financial penalty for overheating is also not desirable. You already get punished pretty hard for overheating anyway. You take more damage, the enemy has an easier time targeting specific sections and you can't do damage yourself while shut down -> less rewards for you, higher risk of being destroyed and/or loosing, higher risk of loosing parts of your mech, higher repair costs. If people don't learn to manage heat from that they won't learn it because of a minor penalty either.