2926 replies to this topic

[Fut]

Pando, on 07 January 2013 - 08:04 AM, said:

If you had listened to the OP's video, that would not have been a relevant concern because it was mentioned to split the perspectives up.

So we'll take the handful of players this game has and split it up a bunch.
Seems like a dumb idea.

Just imagine you're in a group (one of the houses, or a merc group) already and have been playing with the same guys for awhile, if anyone of your members decides to go 3rd person you'll never see them on the battlefield again. Seems like a weird thing to incorporate into a game, no?

Oh. Also, this little snip-it from the main MWO page;
"MechWarrior Online puts MechWarriors into a first-person, team-based, tactical battlefield where the victors swim in the spoils of war and are rewarded with the almighty C-Bill (in-game currency)"

People come to this game expecting 1st person, it shouldn't be upsetting to them when they find out they HAVE to play the game in.... gasp... 1st person.

Edited by Fut, 07 January 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Pando]

.

Edited by Pando, 07 January 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[Fut]

Pando, on 07 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Bolded. Where are you getting your numbers from? PGI obviously isn't concerned with this because they have access to those numbers and have probably already estimated scenarios either way.

I didn't actually list any numbers, simply stated that this game doesn't have a huge playerbase - something to which I believe most people would agree.

Pando, on 07 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

No, it's not a weird thing to incorporate into a game. Many good things can come of it. It won't break / ruin / **** the game or player-base. If it were to ever have that effect....it's still in BETA and things are always subject to change.

As many people have experienced, a "1st Person" game that allows people to enter 3rd person views gives a distinct advantage to those who choose to use that view. This isn't an assumption, it's something that many have seen time and time again. The only way to really eliminate that advantage (while still making a 3rd person view that's beneficial to the players who want/need it) is to split up the game into group - POV People, and 3rd Person People. No, it won't "break" or "ruin" the player base, it'll just make it a lot smaller.

But this is besides the point in my opinion. The biggest fault I see with PGI toying around with new views is the simple fact that this effort is taking manpower/resources away from the many many problems we're currently facing in MWO. Nevermind making a new view to make a small playerbase happy - fix the netcode, make some new maps....etc...etc.

Just for fun though, can you list some of these "many good things" that could come out of implementing a 3rd person view?

Pando, on 07 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

So, now what's keeping you?

Might be because I'm tired and hungover, but I have no idea what you're talking about here.

Pando, on 07 January 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

** to many variables in your post **

Ummm... Really?
I pretty much only brought up a scenario in which I can see this splitting of the playerbase being a bother.
So I guess my post had one variable... One is way too many, I see.

Edited by Fut, 07 January 2013 - 11:58 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

Russ Bullock has said (In the NGNG podcast) that if you do not want to play against 3rd Person view players, you will not have to. The word from him is that players preferring either mode will never be in the same match. In effect, there will indeed be two player bases, 1st Person View matches and 3rd Person View matches with no mixing of the two. So, qwitcherbitchin and just wait and see. They do not want to split the player base because once you mix the capabilities, it will happen and revenue starts to drop. Don't mix, no split, voila! Two player bases playing the mode they want without polluting each other. I can't stand 3rd person view because then I'm only remotely piloting a mech. I prefer to pilot the mech from "inside" and I don't care what it looks like when it's firing, I only care whether my target is being destroyed. Having been an armor crewman, I'd rather be inside than outside of the vehicle.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 07 January 2013 - 12:25 PM.

[LynxFury]

Quote

Just for fun though, can you list some of these "many good things" that could come out of implementing a 3rd person view?

The biggest are obviously potential customers...old timer BT fans that played every other version of MWx in 3rd person by the overwhelming majority.... new players that bring the expectation of just about every other fsp 3rd person vehicles game to MWO (e.g. PS2 Scythe pilot much?), or even other sim players (yes boys and girls...even the hardest of sims like Xplane, MS Flight, Silent Hunter etc have 3rd person)....more casual players that just want a simple to play big stompy mecha game to enjoy with friends.

More players = more $ to potential hire more people to fix the problems, lower prices on Xmas, Easter and Summer micro-sales etc.

And building enough of a fan base to MWO and even mecha going for another ten years.
--
It's quite doubtful there's enough old BT fans to sustain a pure and overly "sim" MMO for very long.

[Pando]

Fut, on 07 January 2013 - 11:56 AM, said:

I didn't actually list any numbers, simply stated that this game doesn't have a huge playerbase - something to which I believe most people would agree.



As many people have experienced, a "1st Person" game that allows people to enter 3rd person views gives a distinct advantage to those who choose to use that view. This isn't an assumption, it's something that many have seen time and time again. The only way to really eliminate that advantage (while still making a 3rd person view that's beneficial to the players who want/need it) is to split up the game into group - POV People, and 3rd Person People. No, it won't "break" or "ruin" the player base, it'll just make it a lot smaller.

But this is besides the point in my opinion. The biggest fault I see with PGI toying around with new views is the simple fact that this effort is taking manpower/resources away from the many many problems we're currently facing in MWO. Nevermind making a new view to make a small playerbase happy - fix the netcode, make some new maps....etc...etc.

Just for fun though, can you list some of these "many good things" that could come out of implementing a 3rd person view?


Might be because I'm tired and hungover, but I have no idea what you're talking about here.



Ummm... Really?
I pretty much only brought up a scenario in which I can see this splitting of the playerbase being a bother.
So I guess my post had one variable... One is way too many, I see.

FUT - I didn't actually list any numbers, simply stated that this game doesn't have a huge playerbase - something to which I believe most people would agree.

PANDO - You can't list any numbers, you cannot say for certain we have a small player-base. Regardless of everyone saying " I think we're small, because seen this one guy in a match 4 times today", that does not speak on player-base. That just means you've been dropping back to back roughly at the same times. I've dropped almost 3,000 times and I've not seen 25% of the registered player-base in-game let alone the same person 4 times in a row regardless of time.

FUT- As many people have experienced, a "1st Person" game that allows people to enter 3rd person views gives a distinct advantage to those who choose to use that view. This isn't an assumption, it's something that many have seen time and time again. The only way to really eliminate that advantage (while still making a 3rd person view that's beneficial to the players who want/need it) is to split up the game into group - POV People, and 3rd Person People. No, it won't "break" or "ruin" the player base, it'll just make it a lot smaller.

PANDO - WHERE THE **** ARE THE STATS THESE PRESUMPTIONS ARE BASED ON?

FUT -But this is besides the point in my opinion. The biggest fault I see with toying around with new views is the simple fact that this effort is taking manpower/resources away from the many many problems we're currently facing in . making a new view to make a small playerbase happy - fix the , make some new maps....etc...etc.

PANDO - Fault huh. I'll tell you what. You can make statements like that when you're developing the game. Until then, enjoy the privilege to participate and give feed-back. Judging from that statement you're not very business savvy are you?

FUT - Just for fun though, can you list some of these "many good things" that could come out of implementing a 3rd person view?

PANDO - Media; Screenshots and Videos? Here's two more totally different examples; Inter-web popularity Ie; expanding the player-base and further enjoyment for persons who have severe motion sickness.

FUT - Might be because I'm tired and hungover, but I have no idea what you're talking about here.

PANDO - What's keeping you from SEEING 3rd view has more benefits than negatives as described by DEV's original post. Ignorance?

FUT - Ummm... Really? I pretty much only brought up a scenario in which I can see this splitting of the playerbase being a bother.

PANDO - So, you're saying that the DEV's are so clueless to this scenario and haven't calculated based on the actual numbers?

FUT - So I guess my post had one variable... One is way too many, I see.

FUT - So we'll take the handful of players this game has and split it up a bunch.
Seems like a dumb idea.

Just imagine you're in a group (one of the houses, or a merc group) already and have been playing with the same guys for awhile, if anyone of your members decides to go 3rd person you'll never see them on the battlefield again. Seems like a weird thing to incorporate into a game, no?

PANDO - ^ Variables for example - Player enjoys 3rd view, Player dislikes 3rd view, Player enjoys both 1st and 3rd view equally. Either which way you twist it that's another players decision. DEAL WITH IT.

Edited by Pando, 07 January 2013 - 12:50 PM.

[Death Metal]

MWO is a first person sim, lets keep it that way.

[Pando]

Death Metal, on 07 January 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

MWO is a first person sim, lets keep it that way.

It's more along the lines of "Tactical First Person Shooter". Sim? Eh, a likely story. But it's just not a "sim". If you compare it to other games labeled as SIM it's no-where near that level of simulation. However, it's a good start.

[Fut]

Pando, on 07 January 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

PANDO - WHERE THE **** ARE THE STATS THESE PRESUMPTIONS ARE BASED ON?

Hahah.. Okay...

So let me get this straight.
You want "Stats" to show that allowing people to see things from a POV other than the driver's seat is an advantage?
It's so blatantly obvious that's it's an advantage for those people. If I can see behind my mech and you cannot, I have an advantage. If I can see over a hill and you cannot, I have an advantage...
There's no way to implement a 3rd person view, while eliminating the advantage those people have, without separating the player into separate view-based groups. You shouldn't need stats to realize this...

While we're on the subject of stats though;
Can you provide me with Stats showing that things get wet when it rains?
I mean, I just don't believe anything without STATS. Love dem STATS!!!!!!

Pando, on 07 January 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

Media; Screenshots and Videos? Here's two more totally different examples; Inter-web popularity Ie; expanding the player-base and further enjoyment for persons who have severe motion sickness.

Great idea. Lets spend countless hours/dollars making promo pics and videos for a game that's riddled with bugs and a severe lack of content.. You know, instead of fixing the problems, adding more content then trying to get people to come and spend their hard earned $$$$ on a fully functioning and in-depth game.


Oh, and I decided to not respond to the rest of your message because of the weirdass way that you typed it out.

Pando, on 07 January 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

It's more along the lines of "Tactical First Person Shooter". Sim? Eh, a likely story. But it's just not a "sim". If you compare it to other games labeled as SIM it's no-where near that level of simulation. However, it's a good start.

Oh, so it is a FIRST PERSON game then?
Quick lets make a multitude of different views!

Edited by Fut, 07 January 2013 - 01:05 PM.

[Pando]

Fut, on 07 January 2013 - 01:01 PM, said:

Hahah.. Okay...

So let me get this straight.
You want "Stats" to show that allowing people to see things from a POV other than the driver's seat is an advantage?
It's so blatantly obvious that's it's an advantage for those people. If I can see behind my mech and you cannot, I have an advantage. If I can see over a hill and you cannot, I have an advantage...
There's no way to implement a 3rd person view, while eliminating the advantage those people have, without separating the player into separate view-based groups. You shouldn't need stats to realize this...

While we're on the subject of stats though;
Can you provide me with Stats showing that things get wet when it rains?
I mean, I just don't believe anything without STATS. Love dem STATS!!!!!!

[/font][/color]

Great idea. Lets spend countless hours/dollars making promo pics and videos for a game that's riddled with bugs and a severe lack of content.. You know, instead of fixing the problems, adding more content then trying to get people to come and spend their hard earned $$$$ on a fully functioning and in-depth game.


Oh, and I decided to not respond to the rest of your message because of the weirdass way that you typed it out.

Dear little innocent ignorant FUT,

FUT - Hahah.. Okay... So let me get this straight. You want "Stats" to show that allowing people to see things from a POV other than the driver's seat is an advantage?

PANDO - NO the dev's have already stated if you don't want to play against 3rd person as 1st person YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO. Now that i've said that for the 4th time referencing the original post....dear god man, are you that dense?

FUT - It's so blatantly obvious that's it's an advantage for those people. If I can see behind my mech and you cannot, I have an advantage. If I can see over a hill and you cannot, I have an advantage...

PANDO - NO the dev's have already stated if you don't want to play against 3rd person as 1st person YOU WILL NOT HAVE TO. Now that i've said that for the 5th time referencing the original post....dear god man, are you that dense?

FUT - There's no way to implement a 3rd person view, while eliminating the advantage those people have, without separating the player into separate view-based groups. You shouldn't need stats to realize this...

PANDO - ............................

FUT - Great idea. Lets spend countless hours/dollars making promo pics and videos for a game that's riddled with bugs and a severe lack of content.. You know, instead of fixing the problems, adding more content then trying to get people to come and spend their hard earned $$$$ on a fully functioning and in-depth game.

PANDO - I'm going to blow my top if I keep reading this stupid crap you keep typing.

FUT - Oh, and I decided to not respond to the rest of your message because of the weirdass way that you typed it out.

PANDO - YESSSSSSS!!!!!

Edited by Pando, 07 January 2013 - 01:10 PM.

[Synchros]

Third person would simply destroy the game for me.

Try playing DayZ. 1st person view is nice, fine and believable. switch to 3rd person view and everything is factor 10 simpler. This is just boring and removes the atmosphere from the game, at least for me.

[Pando]

Synchros, on 07 January 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

Third person would simply destroy the game for me.

Try playing DayZ. 1st person view is nice, fine and believable. switch to 3rd person view and everything is factor 10 simpler. This is just boring and removes the atmosphere from the game, at least for me.

I play DayZ because of 3rd person. I really enjoy 3rd person when I'm running / walking around or picking up objects. Always 1st person when I'm in a combat situation.

[Lightfoot]

LynxFury, on 07 January 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

The biggest are obviously potential customers...old timer BT fans that played every other version of MWx in 3rd person by the overwhelming majority.... new players that bring the expectation of just about every other fsp 3rd person vehicles game to MWO (e.g. PS2 Scythe pilot much?), or even other sim players (yes boys and girls...even the hardest of sims like Xplane, MS Flight, Silent Hunter etc have 3rd person)....more casual players that just want a simple to play big stompy mecha game to enjoy with friends.

More players = more $ to potential hire more people to fix the problems, lower prices on Xmas, Easter and Summer micro-sales etc.

And building enough of a fan base to MWO and even mecha going for another ten years.
--
It's quite doubtful there's enough old BT fans to sustain a pure and overly "sim" MMO for very long.

Most of us played MechWarrior 3 and 4 in First Person. It's just that the various ladder Leagues differed in their settings for the games, one of which was Forced First Person. The popularity of each league was not dependent on this setting, popularity was based on how much Battletech Roleplay they could infuse into their league. The best two were in MW4 were FFP Leagues, some players played in a third that did not enforce FFP because they liked to poptart from behind walls that they could see over. It's a very powerful advantage since you jjet, shoot, and take trivial damage before you drop back behind the wall and so it is all anyone ever did in that league. No brawling, no support, no sniping, not even much moving, just poptarting. How DULL!!!!

What will most likely happen in MWO is the Devs will divide the player base into two camps and then Community Warfare (inter-unit ranking system) will force most players to accept 3rd person =ON because the Units/players want to be accomidating to everyone. MechWarrior has a great deal of Honor in it's history, so being respectful of other's wishes is expected. Thus MWO will become 3rd person only with optional first person for us old-time MechWarrior vets who still want MechWarrior to be a simulation.

Say it isn't so if you like, but just remember I told you what would happen.

[Pando]

Lightfoot, on 07 January 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Most of us played MechWarrior 3 and 4 in First Person. It's just that the various ladder Leagues differed in their settings for the games, one of which was Forced First Person. The popularity of each league was not dependent on this setting, popularity was based on how much Battletech Roleplay they could infuse into their league. The best two were in MW4 were FFP Leagues, some players played in a third that did not enforce FFP because they liked to poptart from behind walls that they could see over. It's a very powerful advantage since you jjet, shoot, and take trivial damage before you drop back behind the wall and so it is all anyone ever did in that league. No brawling, no support, no sniping, not even much moving, just poptarting. How DULL!!!!

What will most likely happen in MWO is the Devs will divide the player base into two camps and then Community Warfare (inter-unit ranking system) will force most players to accept 3rd person =ON because the Units/players want to be accomidating to everyone. MechWarrior has a great deal of Honor in it's history, so being respectful of other's wishes is expected. Thus MWO will become 3rd person only with optional first person for us old-time MechWarrior vets who still want MechWarrior to be a simulation.

Say it isn't so if you like, but just remember I told you what would happen.

Is pop-tarting really a problem in MWO? MWO's gameplay is IMO to sluggish to employ such tactics.

[Targor Avelany]

Lightfoot, on 07 January 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Most of us played MechWarrior 3 and 4 in First Person. It's just that the various ladder Leagues differed in their settings for the games, one of which was Forced First Person. The popularity of each league was not dependent on this setting, popularity was based on how much Battletech Roleplay they could infuse into their league. The best two were in MW4 were FFP Leagues, some players played in a third that did not enforce FFP because they liked to poptart from behind walls that they could see over. It's a very powerful advantage since you jjet, shoot, and take trivial damage before you drop back behind the wall and so it is all anyone ever did in that league. No brawling, no support, no sniping, not even much moving, just poptarting. How DULL!!!!

What will most likely happen in MWO is the Devs will divide the player base into two camps and then Community Warfare (inter-unit ranking system) will force most players to accept 3rd person =ON because the Units/players want to be accomidating to everyone. MechWarrior has a great deal of Honor in it's history, so being respectful of other's wishes is expected. Thus MWO will become 3rd person only with optional first person for us old-time MechWarrior vets who still want MechWarrior to be a simulation.

Say it isn't so if you like, but just remember I told you what would happen.

I'm sorry, just to understand you properly: You are saying that the reason why people will be FORCED to switch to 3rd pv is because of K/D ratio difference between non-3rd pv and 3rd pv players?

[LynxFury]

Lightfoot, on 07 January 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Most of us played MechWarrior 3 and 4 in First Person. It's just that the various ladder Leagues differed in their settings for the games, one of which was Forced First Person. The popularity of each league was not dependent on this setting, popularity was based on how much Battletech Roleplay they could infuse into their league.

Not so sure about that. Most HERE, played MW3 and MW4, in first person simply because MWO was roled out in beta that way. If it had been rolled out in 3rd person only it that crowd could say similar things as this crowd about the prospects of an FFP side. It likely would be just as illogical because as long as done on separate servers it wouldn't effect them...but people would complain anyhow. Polls of a group already distilled into one form of play are nearly meaningless.

As for leagues, was league admin for one of those FFP leagues (BTU), and a forum moderator and assistant unit leader for another (NBT). People did come for the BT elements for sure--it was fun to have a purpose and look up the map and see what effects taking planet X had, as well as what additional mechs might be available for the next drop night. (the building the database and moving stuff around...well not so fun...lol). BTU didn't' survive the transition to mercs (mostly due to clan balance--a problematic issue in all planetary leagues). NBT not only thrived for years, but created its own version even going through the painful....too simmy versions (slow and not-fun) to a somewhat compromise version between MW4 and something like a tank-sim.

I never dissed the ladder and other types of leagues though--regardless of their particular play style. They didn't effect me, not in the least. And I was always glad to have them around, if for no other reason than they were still mecha fans and in some cases getting hooked to the interesting universe of battletech. Some of the most avid fans were in those ladder leagues--some probably looking the other way because this rarefied group that to be honest often seems too stuck up to even recognize the desire to play more casual, less horse-blinded versions of mechwarror.

And yes, they occasionally were fun to play in as well--there were always more nearly packed games on that side of the play style than either planetary league or ffp forced games (owe dare...we do need a lobby!)

Edited by LynxFury, 07 January 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[General Carnage]

I don't get on the forums much. When I saw this I had to post.

3rd Person POV is something I DO NOT want in my game.

With that said I'll explain my position on this issue, but I expect it has all been said before...

Obviously 3rd person POV allows you to see around corners and over obstacles without exposing your Mech to incoming direct damage. This is a massive gameplay changer. Why would anyone expose themselves to danger with this feature in? The consequences to gameplay would be wide ranging and far reaching, and for me, extremely negative.

I would be happy and probably enjoy 3rd person POV when spectating.

I personally think, even having the option to play in a 3rd PPOV game, or not too with allocated servers or what-have-you, will adversely effect the community turning MWO into a casual FPS arena with big robots.

If people want some external cameras, lets have some deployable camera drones. They should be expensive, targetable/destroyable and require concentration on the part of the operator.

[HiplyRustic]

3rd person...

Other than the "screw verisimilitude, I want pewpew and rankings!" crowd just who would want this?

[Jimmhel]

Just for the record I think 3rd person is a mistake.

[Gulinborsti]

There are so many other things that can make this game successfull. The potential is not only in the raw fights but in the meta game hopefully to come (RvR, CvIS, trials, ...). This is where the developers have to focus on, not 3rd person view to satisfy some people who only pop in shortly and move on anyways without more content.

1st person view is the core element the creates the atmosphere in the fights, anything else is just another shooter.

I don't know any game where 3rd person view doesn't give you an advantage over 1st person view and as long as PGI doesn't come up with a revolutinary idea to implement it wihtout this flaw, my sig will remain as it is.

Say "NO!" to 3rd person view!

Edited by Gulinborsti, 08 January 2013 - 04:09 PM.