2926 replies to this topic

[Tarman]

Osis, on 22 March 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Hola,

To be fair they have said you will have a choice, but it does open up the potential for someone twist it to advantage. Personally I really do not understand why they would spend any development cycles on it when that high a percentage was against it.

They have listened before and the last hotfix was pushed through very quick when they figured out the issue. So before everybody decides to jump ship, let them have time to digest it.

I mean really, pretty sure the Moderators have better things to do on a Friday night than try to contain the "splash" from this announcement. Based on the Poll numbers it should not have been a surprise.

Regards,

This is merely the latest in an entire series of failures to deliver, backpedaling, and "Surprise! We Changed Course Again" discoveries. You can't call this latest dustup an announcement since the only reason they came clean at all was because somebody started a stir on Twitter. Looking at what their real plans are, I'm wondering now if that wasn't an intentional attempt to pull this into the light of day by some employee not totally in line with the company lockstep.

But that path of reasoning leads to too much foil to bother with. It's easier to uninstall, which I did. I don't trust their driving, nor their changing destinations, and if a Star Wars or Star Trek IP isn't going to keep me in a poorly-made or poorly-managed game then BT sure isn't going to. I'm mostly here now to watch the dropship crashing and burning, and attend the funeral of one of my favourite IPs until the pirates abscond with the body and join up with the guys from MWLL. Maybe we can still get a good game out of this disaster.

I feel badly for their mech artist and the guys who did the Tourmaline map though. They at least were doing their jobs.

[BanditRaptor]

Matt Newman, on 22 March 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

I see your point you feel lied too. The truth is that was the position at that time.

What I am asking you to understand is there are people who would like to play the game another way.

I personally like 3rd person games and will play it in our game as a fun alternative I still think our game will be best played in first person. I believe the best games give players the option to play they way they want. Were going to do our best to keep fun and fair for everyone.

Matt

So, what reason have we to believe that first- and third- person viewmodes won't inevitably be merged together?

It is only your position at this time that they won't be. The underlying problem is that the community doesn't trust you, PGI, and you do everything in your power to make sure that we never will.

I don't believe that the two viewmodes won't end up playing together. I simply don't. I've learned from my mistakes.

Give us a reason that we should accept your word as being valid. Sure, it's all we've got, but you've already proven that promises made mean absolutely nothing to you.

I don't believe you.

What good is any "constructive" criticism we may have for you, developers, when you won't even hold true to your own design decisions? What reason have we to believe you'll actually heed anything we attempt to tell you?

The problem, once again, is that trust in our development team has been thoroughly eroded over the past few months. You make promises to us, and repeatedly, completely reverse your own positions.

I don't believe you.

[Alois Hammer]

DrBunji, on 22 March 2013 - 12:58 PM, said:

Anyone else feel like a soldier left on a battlefield where we lost months ago, just beating the ground in hopelessnes?

Nah, just feel like a PGI peon. And you know why we're called peons- 'cause they pee on us.

Osis, on 22 March 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

To be fair they have said you will have a choice,

Yep. Just like they said they wouldn't add Coolant Flush...and you see how that turned out.

BeakieHelmet, on 22 March 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

So, what reason have we to believe that first- and third- person viewmodes won't inevitably be merged together?

Based on experience (See "Coolant Flush") I'm taking the merging of 1pv and 3pv as pretty much guaranteed. The only question, in my mind, is if they'll even bother with the charade of launching it as two separate queues before yelling "Y'all just got Punk'd! Again!"

Edited by Alois Hammer, 22 March 2013 - 05:35 PM.

[Cmdr Harabec]

BeakieHelmet, on 22 March 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

So, what reason have we to believe that first- and third- person viewmodes won't inevitably be merged together?

It is only your position at this time that they won't be. The underlying problem is that the community doesn't trust you, PGI, and you do everything in your power to make sure that we never will.

I don't believe that the two viewmodes won't end up playing together. I simply don't. I've learned from my mistakes.

Give us a reason that we should accept your word as being valid. Sure, it's all we've got, but you've already proven that promises made mean absolutely nothing to you.

I don't believe you.

What good is any "constructive" criticism we may have for you, developers, when you won't even hold true to your own design decisions? What reason have we to believe you'll actually heed anything we attempt to tell you?

The problem, once again, is that trust in our development team has been thoroughly eroded over the past few months. You make promises to us, and repeatedly, completely reverse your own positions.

I don't believe you.

Not a truer post has been said. PGI, you are just losing more and more credibility. You're losing trust of the many founders who are playing a game that is increasingly veering from the vision they supported and put money towards. It's disgusting, and I'm glad I didn't have the money at the time to secure my position, which at this point would just feel like an emblem of lost hope.

It's not just about third person, this is just the breaking point and a symbol of everything you've been doing til now.

I would even enjoy third person - kept as an exclusive view mode in third person only games - but the problem is I can't get excited for it when I can't trust that you'll do anything you say. Nevermind that it's getting prioritized before so much else that was supposed to be in the game at this point. What happened to the idea of 2 mechs per month? Clan invasion in March? Community Warfare by now? Not adding in any true paid advantages?

This is just the straw that broke the camel's back, so don't think all the whining is solely about third person. It's about where you have been and continue to take the game as a whole compared to where you told us it would be going.

[Wrenchfarm]

Cmdr Harabec, on 22 March 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

Not a truer post has been said. PGI, you are just losing more and more credibility. You're losing trust of the many founders who are playing a game that is increasingly veering from the vision they supported and put money towards. It's disgusting, and I'm glad I didn't have the money at the time to secure my position, which at this point would just feel like an emblem of lost hope.

It's not just about third person, this is just the breaking point and a symbol of everything you've been doing til now.

I would even enjoy third person - kept as an exclusive view mode in third person only games - but the problem is I can't get excited for it when I can't trust that you'll do anything you say. Nevermind that it's getting prioritized before so much else that was supposed to be in the game at this point. What happened to the idea of 2 mechs per month? Clan invasion in March? Community Warfare by now? Not adding in any true paid advantages?

This is just the straw that broke the camel's back, so don't think all the whining is solely about third person. It's about where you have been and continue to take the game as a whole compared to where you told us it would be going.

Seconded.

3rd person is a problem, make no mistake. But a bigger problem is the core audience's completely loss of faith in PGI. It is very hard to trust anything they say at this point when they have gone back on their word so many times.

It is one thing to balance and shift things around in a developing game. It is another to pull 180s and introduce mechanics that the devs themselves said would never appear in the game, to fundamentally betray supposed design pillars.

[hammerreborn]

Wrenchfarm, on 22 March 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

Seconded.

3rd person is a problem, make no mistake. But a bigger problem is the core audience's completely loss of faith in PGI. It is very hard to trust anything they say at this point when they have gone back on their word so many times.

It is one thing to balance and shift things around in a developing game. It is another to pull 180s and introduce mechanics that the devs themselves said would never appear in the game, to fundamentally betray supposed design pillars.

Where did they go back on their word?

Quote

MechWarrior Online is being designed to put you the player in the seat of the pilot. It is 100% first person view only. Being the pilot is one of our key design pillars and 3rd person breaks that pillar on multiple levels as seen in many of the other 3rd Person discussions.

We will investigate 3rd person in the far off distance for special game settings, but this is very far off in the distance.

While we appreciate those who enjoy 3rd person, MWO will be 1st person out of the gate and in the near future.

-Paul
Lead Designer

Was the game first person out the gate? Yes. Will it be in the near future? Yes. Is third person being investigated for special settings (training, third only, first and third)? Yes.

PGI told the truth, the community whined and cried anyways

[hammerreborn]

der langsamere, on 22 March 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:

http://youtu.be/ddL0OTjWNUc

actually Im starting to see WHY they want 3rd person, theyre advertising it as mosrlt 3rd person. This video is almost all shots from the outside

better yet, why do they have third person on their in office servers if "noone is working on it"?



yeah some people will be up the dev's collective bums regardless of what they do to them. We already know that you dont have to further the point



To be fair they also said it would never be in the game. Like coolant

Where in that post, titled "3rd person - link to here when needed" and posted in JULY last year, does it say it will never be in the game. They specifically say they are investigating it in the future, and the future is now.

I may be up the developers bum, but at least I can still read....something you can't see up your own ***, clearly

Edited by hammerreborn, 22 March 2013 - 05:55 PM.

[Tarman]

hammerreborn, on 22 March 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Where in that post, titled "3rd person - link to here when needed" and posted in JULY last year, does it say it will never be in the game. They specifically say they are investigating it in the future, and the future is now.

I may be up the developers bum, but at least I can still read....something you can't see up your own ***, clearly

I didn't realize GoldVision was so powerful; many others have broken its sway. I pity you.

[DrBunji]

hammerreborn, on 22 March 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

Where did they go back on their word?



Was the game first person out the gate? Yes. Will it be in the near future? Yes. Is third person being investigated for special settings (training, third only, first and third)? Yes.

PGI told the truth, the community whined and cried anyways

Well you obviously havent read **** then. Here is a rundown;
Fact 1; Paul clearly stated that the game would be singleplayer only because, in his words, "third person would be destroying the pillars this game was designed on."
Fact 2; PGI are putting in a play with 3PV que.

Alot of people, me included, wouldn't have sunk a ******* dime in this venture if we had known that 3PV was going to be implemented because we suffered through the aggravated assault that was MechAssault. I guess PGI knew that, which is why they straight-faced lied to us when they wanted out money. Now they want other peoples money so apparently we can go **** ourselves.

[hammerreborn]

Tarman, on 22 March 2013 - 05:59 PM, said:

I didn't realize GoldVision was so powerful; many others have broken its sway. I pity you.

Gold vision causes the ability to read? Best superpower ever.

Garth's post also says third person is a possibility, in case you were also wondering.

People being paranoid doomsayers isn't something to be admired, it's to be ridiculed.

DrBunji, on 22 March 2013 - 06:08 PM, said:

Well you obviously havent read **** then. Here is a rundown;
Fact 1; Paul clearly stated that the game would be singleplayer only because, in his words, "third person would be destroying the pillars this game was designed on."
Fact 2; PGI are putting in a play with 3PV que.

Alot of people, me included, wouldn't have sunk a ******* dime in this venture if we had known that 3PV was going to be implemented because we suffered through the aggravated assault that was MechAssault. I guess PGI knew that, which is why they straight-faced lied to us when they wanted out money. Now they want other peoples money so apparently we can go **** ourselves.

Did you also suffer through mechwarrior 2, 3, and 4 as well, you know, games with third person view. And third person was clearly hinted at in Paul's post (see above), so....good job not reading before you put that money down.

Edited by hammerreborn, 22 March 2013 - 06:11 PM.

[DrBunji]

hammerreborn, on 22 March 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Did you also suffer through mechwarrior 2, 3, and 4 as well, you know, games with third person view. And third person was clearly hinted at in Paul's post (see above), so....good job not reading before you put that money down.

Yeah I did, and as most other people here will tell you, third person view made those games multiplayer into a messy arcade shooter. And Pauls post was made July 2012 where he said, and I quote for real this time, "Mechwarrior is 100% first person view only." What he said was that in the far future it may be investigated as some kind of special mode. But now we dont even have all the mechs, we dont have community warfare, the missile system just bugged out completely, but we do have the coolant flush that was never going to be in the game either and now HEY GUISE I KNOW WHAT YOU WILL LOVE - 3PV! And not as some kind of special mode either, you have to opt out of playing with 3PV players.

**** you. **** PGI. I wish I could get a refund.

[Dorynn]

hammerreborn, on 22 March 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Did you also suffer through mechwarrior 2, 3, and 4 as well, you know, games with third person view. And third person was clearly hinted at in Paul's post (see above), so....good job not reading before you put that money down.

I don't recall TPV being in mechwarrior 2...never played 3 or 4.

And either way, you're missing the point. You have an enormous amount of trust and respect for PGI. I'm impressed by that. I also find myself wondering why so many people in this thread don't share in that trust.

There is a reason for this.

[hammerreborn]

From that July post

Quote

MechWarrior Online is being designed to put you the player in the seat of the pilot. It is 100% first person view only. Being the pilot is one of our key design pillars and 3rd person breaks that pillar on multiple levels as seen in many of the other 3rd Person discussions.

We will investigate 3rd person in the far off distance for special game settings, but this is very far off in the distance.

While we appreciate those who enjoy 3rd person, MWO will be 1st person out of the gate and in the near future.

-Paul
Lead Designer

The only thing you should be getting a refund for is your high school diploma

Dorynn, on 22 March 2013 - 06:22 PM, said:

I don't recall TPV being in mechwarrior 2...never played 3 or 4.

And either way, you're missing the point. You have an enormous amount of trust and respect for PGI. I'm impressed by that. I also find myself wondering why so many people in this thread don't share in that trust.

There is a reason for this.

Mob mentality. Peer pressure. Hating PGI is what all the cool kids are doing. Reading is for those with gold vision I guess.

I never played 2 but wiki says it had it.

What point am I missing exactly. Paul said 3rd in the future ( nearing a year), and Garth said if its implemented you will be able to not play with those who use it, which is still the plan for mwo per Bryan's post

Edited by hammerreborn, 22 March 2013 - 06:29 PM.

[Tarman]

hammerreborn, on 22 March 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Gold vision causes the ability to read? Best superpower ever.

Garth's post also says third person is a possibility, in case you were also wondering.

People being paranoid doomsayers isn't something to be admired, it's to be ridiculed.



Did you also suffer through mechwarrior 2, 3, and 4 as well, you know, games with third person view. And third person was clearly hinted at in Paul's post (see above), so....good job not reading before you put that money down.

Seeing previous games tank for the reasons I see emerging here isn't paranoia, it's repeated history. Those who don't learn from history's errors inevitably repeat them. That's the core of what's going on here. Business not learning from history.

Most people figured when these devs said they saw the mistakes of past devs and wouldn't follow down that path, that they may have gone with that concept. Now they have decided, or it was decided for them, that they will go down the paths which they said were a bad idea. That's still not paranoia, just observable behaviour.

Meanwhile on a technical front, they can't release a patch without discovering some bug left over from ten months ago or breaking five other things. Long-standing balancing issues that are half-resolved by adding more long-standing balancing issues. No tutorial for the brutal new player experience. No decent matchmaking of any sort; no lobbies for player-created matches, nor any real integrated social interaction tools. Extremely limited map selection and game modes. Machineguns and their continual uselessness while also releasing a mech that can only really carry machineguns highlights their ineptitude. Their missiles-of-death hotfix managed to mess with the vision modes.

They are a tiny rookie studio who is now completely in over their heads and are grasping at straws. Even if you don't care at all about the addition of 3PV, even if you think it would improve the game tenfold, their technical ability to make it function is highly questionable.

[hammerreborn]

Mechwarriors 2-4 tanked? That's the most laughable thing I've ever seen.

And saying they will investigate in the future than actually investigating in the future is doing exactly what they said, no more no less.

[Leggin Ho]

Mechwarrior 4 was around for 10+ years so I don't think it "tanked"..lmfao

[hammerreborn]

Leggin Ho, on 22 March 2013 - 06:43 PM, said:

Mechwarrior 4 was around for 10+ years so I don't think it "tanked"..lmfao

Also I'm pretty sure mw:ll, which people say mwo needs to emulate, had 3rd person view as well.

Edited by hammerreborn, 22 March 2013 - 06:48 PM.

[Dorynn]

hammerreborn, on 22 March 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Also I'm pretty sure mw:ll, which people say mwo needs to emulate, had 3rd person view as well.

It was in the multiplayer, IIRC. I never heard much about that. Only played SP myself.

[Glaive-]

hammerreborn, on 22 March 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Also I'm pretty sure mw:ll, which people say mwo needs to emulate, had 3rd person view as well.

Actually it never did officially. At one point the devs on the mod accidentally included 3rd person in a public release though.

[Neros]

hammerreborn, on 22 March 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

Also I'm pretty sure mw:ll, which people say mwo needs to emulate, had 3rd person view as well.

It's been enabled on some assets by accident in the past but third person view never has been and never will be an intended feature of MW:LL.