2926 replies to this topic

[Lord Rip]

FileTitan, on 20 June 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

Why is 3rd person view even being considered right now? Don't you developers have more impotent things to work on? This is extremely frustrating.

Was that misspelling an accident? Or maybe a subconscious dig?

[Pando]

Pihoqahiak, on 20 June 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

What are you basing that opinion on Pando? You have nothing more to support your position than Ed has for their position, or most anyone else you have disagreed with on this thread. Almost every single other game using a third person view is able to use it to look over obstacles and around corners to some extent. You, with your touted professional level of gaming experience should know this. Yet even with that knowledge, you argue that this will not be the case somehow for MW Online.

In specific, the only thing I have to support my claim is what the developers have stated...in the 3pV threads/ATD answers. None of which, paint that picture as being accurate.

Ed Steele, on 20 June 2013 - 02:04 PM, said:

Yes, I would have been if that had been my claim.

I recall you blasting me for something you figured I had claimed....

[NoSkillRush]

Lord Rip, on 20 June 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Was that misspelling an accident? Or maybe a subconscious dig?

Fixed

[CyBerkut]

First off, thanks to those who provided links / quotes of the Ask The Devs 40 Answers. I somehow missed the quotes on page 127... which I will attribute to being blinded by all of the M$ Paint drawings.

Belorion, on 19 June 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

They stated CW is FPV only. So...

Well... actually, it said:

Quote

Viper69 : If we are going to be able to choose to play against people using 3PV or not to, how are you going to address the then fractured and smaller groups that then have to wait in queue for a match that meets their perimeters?
A: There will be two modes Normal and Hardcore (FPV) only. We anticipate most players will play the first mode leaving the hardcore mode for the those wanting a challenge. 3PV will be going onto test servers in the next 60 days and we’ll see how it goes from there.

Ghost Badger: How does PGI plan to reconcile Community Warfare matches with 3PV and 1PV? How will they reconcile matches between teams with different preferences? Or do they plan to split the CW mechanic by viewpoint?
A: The plan is to have scheduled matches will be FPV only, since these will be performed between Merc. Units. Regular matches will follow the above rules (Normal/Hardcore).

That indicates the scheduled matches will be FPV only... but that wouldn't be ALL of the Community Warfare matches.

I also find it interesting in what was not specifically stated in this round of posting on the subject... What exactly constitutes "Normal"? Will players in "Normal" have the option of playing against only the PoV they wish, or do they have to play against both types?

I know what has been said before, but that has also changed before... so I'm not automatically assuming any of that still transfers into this latest scheme. Even if "Normal" is mixed PoVs, they can claim you don't have to play in 1PV against 3PV since you can play "Hardcore".

[MWHawke]

Lord Rip, on 20 June 2013 - 02:19 PM, said:

Was that misspelling an accident? Or maybe a subconscious dig?

Given their history, I think he is quite correct..

[Mystere]

Rhalgaln, on 20 June 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

Even if there was absolutely no advantage from having 3rd Person view enabled I just want to play a simulator in a game where all players play a simulator.

Who are you to dictate how another person should play the game if their choice has no effect on you at all other than offending your personal bias?

Ed Steele, on 20 June 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Pando, you are willfully ignorant if you claim that 3PV does not give a player an advantage (as the picture illustrates) when using 3PV against first person view.

The 3PV implementation depicted in that picture is naive (to put it ever so mildly).

Edited by Mystere, 20 June 2013 - 05:09 PM.

[Commander Kobold]

Dude42, on 17 June 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

Still dumbed down you nob.

You say that but I've had more fun playing and received a greater challenge from hawken >_>

[Dude42]

Omni 13, on 21 June 2013 - 03:36 AM, said:

You say that but I've had more fun playing and received a greater challenge from hawken >_>

Well...
I mean...
Uhhhh...
What are you still doing here?

[Deraxio]

3pv=R.I.P Mwo

[Belorion]

CyBerkut, on 20 June 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

First off, thanks to those who provided links / quotes of the Ask The Devs 40 Answers. I somehow missed the quotes on page 127... which I will attribute to being blinded by all of the M$ Paint drawings.



Well... actually, it said:



That indicates the scheduled matches will be FPV only... but that wouldn't be ALL of the Community Warfare matches.

I also find it interesting in what was not specifically stated in this round of posting on the subject... What exactly constitutes "Normal"? Will players in "Normal" have the option of playing against only the PoV they wish, or do they have to play against both types?

I know what has been said before, but that has also changed before... so I'm not automatically assuming any of that still transfers into this latest scheme. Even if "Normal" is mixed PoVs, they can claim you don't have to play in 1PV against 3PV since you can play "Hardcore".

Holy Jumpin, are you people mental?

1. CW scheduled matches are FPV only.
2. Players will not be required to play against 3PV.
3. The "Regular" CW drops can be either 3PV, or 1PV.

You won't be required to drop against 3PV in CW. If someone wants to challenge you, they have to do it in a scheduled match. Regular matches are more for the Houses. If you drop in a regular match you have the option of FPV only or 3PV available. I am not sure what you people aren't getting.

You don't have to drop against 3PV. You don't have to drop against 3PV in CW. You don't have to drop against 3PV in Regular CW drops. You can't drop against 3PV in Scheduled drops.

[Caballo]

Belorion, on 21 June 2013 - 05:18 AM, said:

Holy Jumpin, are you people mental?

1. CW scheduled matches are FPV only.
2. Players will not be required to play against 3PV.
3. The "Regular" CW drops can be either 3PV, or 1PV.

You won't be required to drop against 3PV in CW. If someone wants to challenge you, they have to do it in a scheduled match. Regular matches are more for the Houses. If you drop in a regular match you have the option of FPV only or 3PV available. I am not sure what you people aren't getting.

You don't have to drop against 3PV. You don't have to drop against 3PV in CW. You don't have to drop against 3PV in Regular CW drops. You can't drop against 3PV in Scheduled drops.

I'll just post a link to answer your rant:

http://mwomercs.com/...is-when-needed/

[Mr Blonde]

How about if they name the 2 modes "Normal" for FPV (since that's the game they promised us, and the way the game has been played since its first day) and "Noob" for 3rd Person, since that is the type of player who they apparently want to bring in with the added mode. People are mostly sheep, they will steer towards whatever is referred to as "normal". I think that tells us where PGI's mindset lies, what they apparently think is normal is not what their game is. That's a very odd position to hold.

[Abel]

I've always used 3rd person view in previous Mechwarrior games just to take a sneak peak at my chassis during the boring bits of running to a conflict zone or nav point. Just the other day I was showing a friend MWO who has never played any Mechwarrior and she asked several times "what do you look like?". It would be nice to have the option to press C for camera and quickly pop out into a 3rd person view. I wouldn't play 3rd person though and I don't know anyone who's played 3rd person in previous games even though the option was there. +1 for the argument to add it in
.

[Belorion]

Caballo, on 21 June 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

I'll just post a link to answer your rant:

http://mwomercs.com/...is-when-needed/

Irrelevant. The community wanted 3PV so they acquiesced, while still enabling the core player base to play FPV only. They haven't broken the spirit of that post because you can play FPV only.

a/k/a you don't have to play 3PV.

a/k/a you don't have to play against people playing 3PV.

a/k/a you don't have anything to complain about.

[Mr Blonde]

Also I think "Pando" is just an alternate account for one the devs. I have no proof, but his slavish devotion is quite suspicious...

Abel, on 21 June 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

I've always used 3rd person view in previous Mechwarrior games just to take a sneak peak at my chassis during the boring bits of running to a conflict zone or nav point. Just the other day I was showing a friend MWO who has never played any Mechwarrior and she asked several times "what do you look like?". It would be nice to have the option to press C for camera and quickly pop out into a 3rd person view. I wouldn't play 3rd person though and I don't know anyone who's played 3rd person in previous games even though the option was there. +1 for the argument to add it in
.

How about the camo spec tab in the Mechbay? Seems perfectly adequate to me to show people what my mechs look like from any angle. You can even post screenshots from there should you desire. It's certainly no reason to betray all their stated goals.

[Grimmnyr]

Mystere, on 20 June 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

My point is that the picture illustrates (in its own special way) the advantage a 3PV player could have if 3PV is implemented that eay. The picture was not "Dumb" as Pando so eloquently put it.

Edited by Ed Steele, 21 June 2013 - 06:57 AM.

[Caballo]

Belorion, on 21 June 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Irrelevant. The community wanted 3PV so they acquiesced, while still enabling the core player base to play FPV only. They haven't broken the spirit of that post because you can play FPV only.

a/k/a you don't have to play 3PV.

a/k/a you don't have to play against people playing 3PV.

a/k/a you don't have anything to complain about.

*Cracking Knuckles*

Irrelevant:

How can you say that is irrelevant, when the post clearly states 3pv is not going to be included (To set the background, when the whole community at the time was considerating if there was a reason to pay or not to pay for the game) and they changed their mind in front of your eyes after cashing. THIS IS A LIE, they've cheated you, sorry.



The community wanted 3PV so they acquiesced, while still enabling the core player base to play FPV only:

No, the community didn't. FYI, and in case you've been living under a rock for the last month, and looks like, what the community said (Through 2 consecutive polls, both of them conveniently deleted by merging the topics) is this:

Do you want 3pv?:
NO=1398
yes=98



They haven't broken the spirit of that post because you can play FPV only.

Well... anyone with comprehensive reading can see this: If i say one of the pillars of the game is cockpit view and i'm not gonna brake it, and the next i say the opposite... I've broken the spirit of my own rule.


You want 3rd person view? Great, but don't play devil's advocate versus the facts, please.

Edited by Caballo, 21 June 2013 - 06:42 AM.

[Belorion]

Caballo, on 21 June 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

*Cracking Knuckles*

Irrelevant:

How can you say that is irrelevant, when the post clearly states 3pv is not going to be included (To set the background, when the whole community at the time was considerating if there was a reason to pay or not to pay for the game) and they changed their mind in front of your eyes after cashing. THIS IS A LIE, they've cheated you, sorry.

I haven't been cheated. I asked for 3PV, but now I am kind of use to FPV. Its not a lie, its not a cheat because... you don't have to play or play against 3PV. If someone can't realize that if they don't have to play against or with 3PV then nothing has changed for them has bigger problems that anything PGI could do.

Caballo, on 21 June 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

The community wanted 3PV so they acquiesced, while still enabling the core player base to play FPV only:

No, the community didn't. FYI, and in case you've been living under a rock for the last month, and looks like, what the community said (Through 2 consecutive polls, both of them conveniently deleted by merging the topics) is this:

Do you want 3pv?:
NO=1398
yes=98

http://mwomercs.com/...rd-person-view/
http://mwomercs.com/...-external-view/
http://mwomercs.com/...rd-person-view/
http://mwomercs.com/...rd-person-view/
...etc/etc.

Caballo, on 21 June 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

They haven't broken the spirit of that post because you can play FPV only.

Well... anyone with comprehensive reading can see this: If i say one of the pillars of the game is cockpit view and i'm not gonna brake it, and the next i say the opposite... I've broken the spirit of my own rule.

You want 3rd person view? Great, but don't play devil's advocate versus the facts, please.

There is no devils advocate here. For people to be upset there needs to be something other than blatant protectionism going on. If someones playing experience doesn't change after the inclusion of 3PV they really have no right to complain. They don't want other people playing MWO because they get to play in 3PV then tough. Deal with it.

ETA: Are you going to get mad if they add a single player mode, or the unseen because they said they wouldn't?

Edited by Belorion, 21 June 2013 - 08:35 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

Belorion, on 21 June 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

I haven't been cheated. I asked for 3PV, but now I am kind of use to FPV. Its not a lie, its not a cheat because... you don't have to play or play against 3PV. If someone can't realize that if they don't have to play against or with 3PV then nothing has changed for them has bigger problems that anything PGI could do.




http://mwomercs.com/...rd-person-view/
http://mwomercs.com/...-external-view/
http://mwomercs.com/...rd-person-view/
http://mwomercs.com/...rd-person-view/
...etc/etc.




There is no devils advocate here. For people to be upset there needs to be something other than blatant protectionism going on. If someones playing experience doesn't change after the inclusion of 3PV they really have no right to complain. They don't want other people playing MWO because they get to play in 3PV then tough. Deal with it.

ETA: Are you going to get mad if they add a single player mode, or the unseen because they said they wouldn't?

I'm not upset they are adding 3PV; I fear the seemingly-inevitable renegotiation that will follow and merge the 1PV queues and 3PV queues.

It isn't even so much that I'm upset they went back on their "promise" regarding 3PV; I just don't want to watch this become MW:4 all over again. Coolant Flush, Jump Snipers, and such in the recent "metagame" were moving us in that direction. 3PV on top of that would have, or will be, the final nail in the coffin, or that is my fear.

The fact they went back on the initial "This is 1PV only" line isn't about them adding 3PV in and of itself; it is the pattern presented. Same thing with Coolant Flush - "We won't add coolant flush" to "Hey, here's coolant flush!" in three month's time. Did that draw in more players for them? Did it drive some away? I know I sneer and make grumpy noises when I am spectating and hear the computer voice call it out.

So, right now we are being told "You won't have to play vs. 3PV players" and "3PV offers no / little advantage" or whatever... but what will the line be three months from now? "We did some research and it seems only 6% of players are playing in the 1PV-only queue, so we are killing the 1PV queue. Have fun playing 3PV."

That is my fear, and it is founded, because it has already happened in regards to other features and such.

Again, if they make the move, and suddenly have 40,000 active, paying players, then whether I like it or not is irrelevant.

I'm not sure if that will be the case (and that means I am not sure if it will increase, or not increase, active players.)

I am sure it will drive off at least a certain number of current players.

[DirePhoenix]

Belorion, on 19 June 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

They stated CW is FPV only. So...

Ghost Badger, on 20 June 2013 - 07:44 AM, said:

For those that don't like links, here's the actual text from ATD 40. Now that it's been stated, the debate has shifted to whether or not PGI will actually stick to it.

Quote

Ghost Badger: How does PGI plan to reconcile Community Warfare matches with 3PV and 1PV? How will they reconcile matches between teams with different preferences? Or do they plan to split the CW mechanic by viewpoint?
A: The plan is to have scheduled matches will be FPV only, since these will be performed between Merc. Units. Regular matches will follow the above rules (Normal/Hardcore).

CW is not first-person only.

Faction players are apparently segregated from Mercs. Faction players will be fighting other faction players (likely with lone wolves tossed in as filler) in hardcore (1PV) or noobcore (3PV).

Mercs fight only other Mercs in hardcore mode (1PV) only, in 12v12 battles that have to be scheduled apparently. So I guess if you're in a Merc Unit and don't have 12 of your players online, you don't play according to this design. <insert sarcastic slow clap> Brilliant!

CyBerkut, on 19 June 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

And despite repeated questioning, we still have not been told authoritatively by a dev team member how it will work when a 3PV team attacks a planet defended by a 1PV team, or vice versa.

I'm pretty sure 1PV players will not be in the same match as 3PV. As explained above, 3PV players can't play as Mercs, so that cuts them right out of those matches. In Faction battles, 1PV will be matched against other 1PV players, while 3PV will be matched against other 3PV players. It's possible that both matches contribute toward the gain/loss of the same planet, but they won't be actually fighting together on the same map.