2926 replies to this topic

[Ilix]

People say 1st person is iconic MW but in all the PC games I did 3rd person. I LOVE to be able to see my mech, its part of the heart of the game and 100% of the coolness to me.

People know that the superhardcore nerds will be spamming this thread against 3rd person, but they don't represent most, I think. It would make this my primary mmo, I tell you this as my most converying argument, devs. I would see fit to pay regularly into this game if I could have that one little feature that I feel cripples my (not necessarily everyone else's) enjoyment of the action.

[ATao]

Russ, you need to make a clear decision here. We don't need "we are thinking of possibilities" crap on gameplay pillars that make MWO what it is. On some matters it can be only yes or no, no ifs.

Your community told you 100 times what it wants and how it feels about the issue and will tell you the same thing 100 times more. Not only that but it provided alternative ideas and designs on how to address specific problems. There was that "we are listening to the community" topic out there about OBT launch. Let's see if it was all looks or real deal. Be a man, make up your mind and give us a clear answer.

Edited by Alexander Malthus, 20 November 2012 - 06:18 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

<begins quietly setting up his pitchfork, torch and fuel vending booth> To be absolutely honest Russ, on more than several occasions PAUL under the auspice of an Employee in GOOD Standing with PGI has openly declared this game to be 100% FIRST PERSON ONLY. Please, do not flip 180 degrees on this. You want to help the New players who cannot grasp the concept of torso twisting is NOT linked to LEG facing? GIVE THEM A REAL TUTORIAL. Not some crap video from NGNG that is about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. I am sorry, but adding in a 3rd person view as an AID to new players is pure and total slap in our faces, give us a tutorial, a real one. FORCE US ALL to use it if you want, but, hear us, THAT is the way to go, not violating your KEY DESIGN PILLARS and upsetting and alienating a statistically significant portion of this games revenue generating players.

[MechZ1lla]

Nah...they're going to do it anyway.


You don't put that much effort into this;

"Third Person is being reviewed internally as an optional gameplay mode. No final decisions or designs have been made yet, however preliminary thoughts include:

• Players would be able to choose 1st or 3rd person or toggle between both.
  
• Players would be able to select how they are matched against other players: Only 1st person, Only 3rd person, or Mixed. This will preserve the integrity of matches and allow players maximum control over their gaming experience.
  
• The concern with a matchmaking solution is player base fragmentation, part of the reason why 3rd person isn’t being rushed to production.
  
• 3rd person would not change how LOS or targeting work.
  
• Players may gain a visual tactical advantage, depending on how much freedom in camera movement is given. This is subject to designing a camera system that feels good.
  
• The game isn’t easier per se in 3rd person, so we do not feel changing the meta rewards is necessary.
  
• For new users, 3rd person could be default or there will be a prompt for new players to select their view point.
  
• New players will benefit from seeing how torso twist and throttle work from the outside. This reduces new user friction and gets them into the game faster, with less frustration.
  
• This feature is designed to maximize player choice, by letting people select which mode they prefer."

without doing it.

So...yeah. Guess we're done here.

[Rejarial Galatan]

then they have ruined the game, broken a KEY DESIGN PILLAR, lied to us, and made this Arcade Warrior Online.

[Gunny McDuck]

I would agree.

From what the developers are saying, and what they aren't saying....

It is all but decided now, there will be 3rd person perspective in MWO.

If we're lucky, they won't allow players who only want 1st person perspective to play against people with 3rd person perspective.

This will split the community and the user base.

More people will play with 3rd person than with 1st, or at least that is what the data will say.
I would think that over time, more features and more focus will be given to that style of play.

But if I ever see pop-tarting, or read about it happening in great numbers on the forums, I know I will pretty much stop playing, as would most of the hardcore types, I would think....

I'd love to be wrong, but I don't think I will be.
Maybe PGI will prove us Nellie Negatives wrong and do the right thing.


Give us numbers, give us data....how may requests have they gotten for 3rd person perspective?
Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands?

At least they could be more communicative, more up front about what is making them go down this road.

Seriously, if Garth or Bryan or any of the PGI devs came into the forums and said:
"Guys, we don't think that MWO will have a future if we don't do this, and even though we made it sound like we'd never do this, the continued survival of this game will be dependent on getting more people into the game and keeping them there, and we feel that this is the best way to do it."

If they did that, I wouldn't like it, but I'd respect them for doing it and I'd eventually get over it.


Good thing my Merc Corp is also heavy into Planetside 2.....at least I can still play with the same friends I found here.

[Sound Reason]

Ilix, on 20 November 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

People know that the superhardcore nerds will be spamming this thread against 3rd person, but they don't represent most, I think.

You obviously haven't seen that much cited poll where over 90% of respondents voted against introducing 3rd person views. I guess only "superhardcore nerds" respond to polls?

The thing I would find most upsetting about this is that PGI would be doing a great disservice to the founders who funded this game for you. I think it's safe to say that anyone who's already spent money on this game formed your most dedicated fan-base, and provided the revenue PGI needed to get this game made in the first place. Those same founders have clearly and unambiguously spoken out against the inclusion of 3rd person mechanics.

However, there's a simple fact to observe here: PGI already got our money. They're not trying to sell to us anymore; they already have, and now they're moving on to target new revenue streams. Now that you no longer have to buy into the game, PGI needs to find ways to recruit the players sitting on the fence in order to tap more potential money. So really, if third person is implemented, it will be PGI selling out the players who originally backed the game in order to make one more hospitable to players demanding the mechanic be implemented.

That is a road to a fractured player base at best, possible alienation of their most dedicated mech-loving audience at worst. If implemented I would see this as a PGI cash grab, and a severe betrayal of the players who provided the capital originally required to push this game through development.

[cipher]

Rejarial Galatan, on 20 November 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

then they have ruined the game, broken a KEY DESIGN PILLAR, lied to us, and made this Arcade Warrior Online.

LOL. Since when has a camera view been a "KEY DESIGN PILLAR" of any game? Never. Oh sure, we may call some games FPS for 1st-person shooters, but their cameras are much more dynamic than just 1st person.

It's funny to see so many hardcore fans cry and moan about this change of heart when they accused us of the same thing when we cried and moaned that there was no 3rd person camera views.

[Sound Reason]

cipher, on 20 November 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

LOL. Since when has a camera view been a "KEY DESIGN PILLAR" of any game? Never. Oh sure, we may call some games FPS for 1st-person shooters, but their cameras are much more dynamic than just 1st person.

It's funny to see so many hardcore fans cry and moan about this change of heart when they accused us of the same thing when we cried and moaned that there was no 3rd person camera views.

It's a "key design pillar" when the game is touted as a sim. Mechwarriors sit in mechs. They aren't disembodied spirits controlling them from an elevated position up and behind the mech itself.

The issue is that 3rd person views provide a real, tangible information advantage to players using them. If you want to be competitive and 3rd person is an option, then you must pick 3rd person. If 3rd person players are "segregated" from 1st person players, it would fracture the community and be bad for the development of the game world as a whole. How would that be addressed? Information from PGI is too scarce now, but 3rd person goes against the fundamental design concept and would ruin competitive balance. It also goes against the repeatedly and ostensively firmly stated position (see above quotes from Paul) that there was a 0% chance of having 3rd person implemented. To include it now would be a breach of consumer trust, and players should probably consider asking for their investments back if they feel sufficiently betrayed.

[Toshogu]

GJ saw the new patch. Just like Tripwire Interactive you guys are caving into the Call of duty, Gears of War nubs and ruining your product. Slowly but surely you are going to keep adding features and bending to their will untill this game just blends in with all the other **** mecha games out there. GJ bravo. thank god I got my refund, and really don't play much any more.

Tripwire Interactive
Red Orchestra 3

and example of what not to do.

PS you still haven't fixed brightness/contrast not being adjustable.

Edited by Toshogu, 20 November 2012 - 09:59 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

cipher, on 20 November 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

LOL. Since when has a camera view been a "KEY DESIGN PILLAR" of any game? Never. Oh sure, we may call some games FPS for 1st-person shooters, but their cameras are much more dynamic than just 1st person.

It's funny to see so many hardcore fans cry and moan about this change of heart when they accused us of the same thing when we cried and moaned that there was no 3rd person camera views.

MechWarrior Online is being designed to put you the player in the seat of the pilot. It is 100% first person view only. Being the pilot is one of our key design pillars and 3rd person breaks that pillar on multiple levels as seen in many of the other 3rd Person discussions.[/color]

We will investigate 3rd person in the far off distance for special game settings, but this is very far off in the distance.

While we appreciate those who enjoy 3rd person, MWO will be 1st person out of the gate and in the near future.

-Paul
Lead Designer

this good enough proof cipher?

Edited by Rejarial Galatan, 20 November 2012 - 10:00 PM.

[nitra]

5 days and waiting....

[Frenchtoastman]

DirePhoenix, on 20 November 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Here you go. I've described a method that you can have a third-person view in-game that allows users to view their 'mech in its environment, with a minimal impact on balance or gameplay. While using that view, users can move the camera around, and while they "may" see something that gives them a tactical advantage (like seeing which way their legs are facing, or the 'mech ducking behind the hill in front of them), that advantage is minimalized due to the fact that there is no weapons capability, no HUD (which means no targeting), and movement controls are locked (if you have your throttle set before you snap into that view, you keep moving in that direction at that speed) until you hop back into your cockpit. This is only useful to look around, get your bearings, and take screenshots. If you want to target, shoot, or control your 'mech, or even type in text chat you have to jump back into the cockpit. Also, similar to the in-cockpit freelook, you have to be holding down a button to stay in that view, as soon as you let go, you're back in your cockpit. You *could* use this to scout while shut down, but that requires 1) that you be shut down, to which the disadvantages should be obvious, and 2) that the pilot is able to identify and report enemy movement without the aid of a HUD. This isn't to say that this game would not also benefit from a live, in-game tutorial mode.

So, you could just use it for the advantage of 3rd person (peeking around a corner or over a hill) then release the button and resume combat..So even unprotected heavies can keep an eye on their own back (making flanking moot) AND everyone could cheat around objects without getting in harms way AND without a split playerbase, I'd have to just put up with it and use it myself or be at a severe disadvantage.
gotta say, I'm not a fan of this idea.

There's no way to implement 3rd person where it won't allow the advantage of seeing more of the field than 1st, unless your view is made SO narrow that even those that actually WANT 3rd person will hate it.

There's no way to add 3rd person without either splitting the playerbase (messing with CW and droptimes etc) OR forcing 1st person players to use it or suffer the disadvantage.

Edited by Frenchtoastman, 21 November 2012 - 12:34 AM.

[RJF Volkodav]

I think even the idea to get 3p here is bad (all reasons mentioned previously).
But OK. If the problem is in players just starting to play MWO why not to give 3P view ability only for trial mechs? Want to play serious combats - try to learn how to drive mech. Why should MWO be an arcade?

[ghos t in the shel l]

It just comes down to having an open mind. We all need to trust the MWO developers that they will implement additional view points that will improve the gameplay. MechWarrior is more than a simulator it is an experience that deserves to be treated with respect, and I promise you with my personal guarantee the best pilots to ever grace MechWarrior can play any view whether that is First or 3rd Person view, a true pilot will adapt and overcome.

[skamage]

RENZOKUKEN, on 21 November 2012 - 02:13 AM, said:

It just comes down to having an open mind. We all need to trust the MWO developers that they will implement additional view points that will improve the gameplay. MechWarrior is more than a simulator it is an experience that deserves to be treated with respect, and I promise you with my personal guarantee the best pilots to ever grace MechWarrior can play any view whether that is First or 3rd Person view, a true pilot will adapt and overcome.

Please enlighten us. We have posed concerns and they have gone unanswered, yet PGI says we are still going ahead and checking into this because we want to. Definitely I can understand wanting to bring in new players, but when it fractures the community and you alienate the original player base that funded you then it's a big problem.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

There was this idea to add a module that is basically a destructable drone with a camera that shows your mech in 3rd person. If we must have this 3rd person view that would be something that satisfies both sides. It would be nice to be able to either switch to fullscreen view or to have some PIP with live feed while in cockpit (like we have now with a map) - tough they couldn't make decent zoom module because of FPS drop so I don't belive they can make something like that work.

[Kmieciu]

Devs are unable to produce separate matchmaking ques for 8 player groups, yet they want to add ques for people using different view perspectives?
How about concentrating on the core gameplay?

"The engine in your car works only using 4 out of 8 cylinders right now, would you like us to put some spoilers and vinils on it ,though" ?

[Alois Hammer]

cipher, on 20 November 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

LOL. Since when has a camera view been a "KEY DESIGN PILLAR" of any game?

http://mwomercs.com/...is-when-needed/

Paul Inouye said:

MechWarrior Online is being designed to put you the player in the seat of the pilot. It is 100% first person view only. Being the pilot is one of our key design pillars and 3rd person breaks that pillar on multiple levels as seen in many of the other 3rd Person discussions.

Since the developers specifically said it was. Got any other brilliant questions?

[DirePhoenix]

Sound Reason, on 20 November 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

You obviously haven't seen that much cited poll where over 90% of respondents voted against introducing 3rd person views. I guess only "superhardcore nerds" respond to polls?

Actually, yes. Only the "superhardcore nerds" even look at the forums, let alone post in them. Take another look at that poll: Less than 4000 people gave inputs. Look at the total amount of registered players: ~400,000. That means only 1% of the total playerbase has given an opinion on this topic. That 90% figure that you cling so desperately to is only 90% of 1%. Or rather, 0.9% of the playerbase have polled negatively against a third person view, 0.1% have polled otherwise, and 99.0% of the playerbase has not given an opinion at all.

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the polls you see on these forums are absolutely useless for any type of statistics. There is no such thing as a "Representative Sample" when it comes to polls that people can choose whether or not they participate, or are even aware that they are being polled (the simple fact that they are aware that they are being polled can create bias). Let me say this another way that will hopefully be clearer:

Self-selected samples are almost inevitably biased and are, at best, a form of entertainment. They CANNOT be trusted as a source of information about the population as a whole.

Edited by DirePhoenix, 21 November 2012 - 08:33 AM.