88 replies to this topic

[WeekendWarrior]

EmperorMyrf, on 18 November 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

ERPPC is way underpowered on top of the GR being where it is,

The ER-PPC isn't underpowered, the heat dissipation system is.
They tripled weapon heat as a side effect of tripling ROF, but reduced heat dissipation compared to the TT, so high heat energy weapons are completely shafted compared to low heat ballistics.

Those nice charts by Ohmwrecker floating around here tell the entire story.
The Gauss Rifle weighs 15 tons, needs roughly 3 tons of ammo, and all of 2 heatsinks to negate the heat, so thats a total of 20 tons for 3.75 DPS.
The ER-PPC does only 3.33 DPS, but considering its lighter, smaller, has a better range, doesn't need ammo and can't explode, i could live with that. The problem is that the ER-PPC, even with heat already reduced to 13 from the canon 15, generates more than 17!! times the heat of the Gauss, so that on top of the 7 tons for the gun, you also need to sink 32!! heat, resulting in 39 tons total, nearly twice as much as the Gauss Rifle costs you.
Sure, with "not quite Double" Heatsinks its a bit less, but even the ten internal DHS working at full double capacity aren't enough to deal with just a single ER-PPC.
They can't even completely sink a single standard PPC, while on the TT they would allow a pair of them to be heat neutral.

Don't bash the Gauss, its effectively the only gun thats working as it should, bash the heat system. And pity the AWS-9M.

[Kamatayan]

Probably my only comment here is that I think it would be better to have size restrictions on hardpoints. Hunchbacks have such a huge lumpy target for mounting supposed gauss or ac-20 while K2's can mount them on relatively hard to shoot locations. Or better yet have an alternate for each hardpoint. K2 arms stock loadout is for energy weapons, but you could have an option to change those to handle ballistics.

I've even seen some ravens mouting an ac20.

[Black Ivan]

A hardpoint restriction would fit very good. Make Gauss needing 2 ballistic hardpoints and thats it.
PPCs needs a serious buff as well. They even bounce off armor without doing any sort of damage. That can't be intended.

[GutterBoy5]

nothing wrong with guass.learn to pilot better option

[J4ck4l]

On the gauss, not OP imo. Ok dual cats are powerfull and yes two guass hit same spot. But all you need is to backstab them or land some nice volleys of missles. The gauss is what 15 tons and a f*ck load of slots. I tried the dual gauss, hated it. It's boring, i need me some shortrange weapons to play with aswell.
Really hate those gausspults? Get a fast mech/ scout, take some SRMs or lasers and a tag. And watch the rain. (and get some nice spotting xp in the process).

Ragor, on 18 November 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

IMO an increase in the cooldown of the gauss wouldn't change much since it would still be a dangerous brawler.

I for myself would love to see no firing delay at all for all kind of ACs but a firing delay for gauss.

-> AC would be easier to aim in brawls.
-> A firing delay for a sniper (who is anyway leading his target constanly or is aiming for a stationary target) would not harm him that much while he is doing his job of long range sniping. But firing from the hip like in a brawl would be much harder for him that way.

50/50 with you on this one. I'd say, no delay on any weapon. Except for missiles that hide behind doors like the catapult's (unless the bays are open). Imho, the weapon is loaded, all that is needed is an electrical pulse to set off the shell/reaction/emitors etc. The pulse travels close to lightning speed, so should be close to like no delay in human perception.

Regards,

[Tiri]

J4ck4l, on 19 November 2012 - 03:41 AM, said:

On the gauss, not OP imo. Ok dual cats are powerfull and yes two guass hit same spot. But all you need is to backstab them or land some nice volleys of missles.

With what missiles, the LRMs that are as effective as a slingshot ?

Edited by Tiri, 19 November 2012 - 03:50 AM.

[Xenok]

Feindfeuer, on 17 November 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

Not using Gauss on anything right now as i don't have a K2 and it's not realy that great on any other mech. The only 'problem' with Gauss is that the K2 is able to mount 2 of them that are firing from almost the same spot and will therefore hit pretty much the same area getting you, in gameplay terms, a 30 damage gun. But that is more of a problem of the K2 design and not of the Gauss Rifles themselves.

The only problem with the gauss (and balistic weapons in general) is the delay between pressing a button to fire and the actual firing of the gun.

The K2 is not a problem, get ready for more like it with the catafrak and the jaggermech. It makes for a good mech design that can push LRM boats down off a hill from a long way out. While LRMs are now well balanced they are a threat, a Gauss cat (catafrak, jaggermech) is a good answer to dealing with LRMs and a good mobile counter to atlas mechs everywhere.

A heavily armed scout is hell for a gauss cat to deal with. If you have no support you are likely dead.

A pair of AC2 (about the same tonnage) will by far out damage the single gauss (by about double) but does not have the alpha strike ability of the Gauss. Just wait for a Jaggermech with 4 AC2 tagging you at 700 meters, no one will be worried about a guass any longer. The alpha strike ability of the gauss is needed to back a LRM platform off its hill from outside its range and as a mobile sniper to weaken key areas of assult mech armor.

Not only is the gauss not overpowered but greatly needed as a rock scissor paper mechanic to the LRM and assult mechs and forces teams to play a mix of mechs to deal with it. All in all a great game mechanic.

[DeaconW]

Why we can't just stick as close as possible to the tried and true canon values for stuff is beyond me. It works. Gauss should have a min range to balance the weapons in the game...a weapon should not be the best sniper weapon and the best brawler weapon simultaneously. The min range is to compensate for the fact that this is a SIM and we are not actually piloting real mechs and there are aspects that are not simulated. In real life, managing a sniper rifle at close range is difficult....this is why snipers carry secondary weapons and/or have a spotter with a more appropriate shorter range weapon for closer fighting. Simple. And it makes sense.

[Imagine Dragons]

I find the lack of imagination as to why and how a gauss rilfe has a "minimum" range disturbing.

The limiting effect doesn't have to occur after the GR fires...

Edited by XenomorphZZ, 19 November 2012 - 05:46 AM.

[Von Falkenstein]

Gauss is fine imho. Where's that cheese now? No whine without cheese!

[Tarskin]

I am with DeaconW on this one, the moment that they started tweaking TT values was the moment that everything stopped being properly balanced. I mean balancing took years for the TT crew, why waste that experience?

[Alcibiades]

Respectfully, TT and a video game are two completely different things. As someone who frequently runs a 2 ER PPC Jenner (It's a wee bit hot, but doable) you can do decent damage. The problems I find are with the travel time of the projectile (Way too slow to be an effective sniper if there's lateral movement of any sort), beam convergence as a result of the absurd amount you have to lead the target (you have to point to a spot a few meters or even hundreds of meters ahead, which leads to the beams being split when they hit the target), as well as excessive heat generation.

That having been said, slavish devotion to TT isn't the way to go. Looking at the average damage output, # of kills per match for various weapons, amount of time spent fighting as opposed to overheating etc. are far better metrics to look at.

[Eggs Mayhem]

Tarskin, on 19 November 2012 - 05:52 AM, said:

I am with DeaconW on this one, the moment that they started tweaking TT values was the moment that everything stopped being properly balanced. I mean balancing took years for the TT crew, why waste that experience?

The abilty to aim, and convergence is why. The reason smaller weapons were more efficient in TT is because you couldn't cluster them onto a specific target like you can in this game. I don't have the numbers in front of me (desktop blew its PSU) but IIRC the small laser was almost 4x more efficient than a large laser. which does not sit well in this game. TT was balanced (kinda, since BV system was needed) with TT gameplay, not with MW.

If the legends are true, they tried using a pure TT system in the early stages and it did not work.

[SmithMPBT]

There will always be the guy who uses the most Exploitive Loadout allowed, in between checking his K/D ratio. Fix the hardpoints, problem solved.

[Xenok]

DeaconW, on 19 November 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

Why we can't just stick as close as possible to the tried and true canon values for stuff is beyond me. It works. Gauss should have a min range to balance the weapons in the game...a weapon should not be the best sniper weapon and the best brawler weapon simultaneously. The min range is to compensate for the fact that this is a SIM and we are not actually piloting real mechs and there are aspects that are not simulated. In real life, managing a sniper rifle at close range is difficult....this is why snipers carry secondary weapons and/or have a spotter with a more appropriate shorter range weapon for closer fighting. Simple. And it makes sense.

Minimum range is a bad idea, its all ready nearly impossible to kill a good Scout pilot with a gauss cat just from the delay alone, let alone the slower fire rate. Gauss does not need a nurf, cant wait to have another chasis that will haul them even better.

[Mawai]

Janus Wealth, on 18 November 2012 - 02:34 AM, said:

I would appreciate the 60m minimum range, but besides that the gauss is fine.

Just curious what you mean by "60m minimum range".

The gauss rifle doesn't have a minimum range in TT. The only weapon with an actual minimum range in TT is the PPC.

AC/2. AC/5 and Gauss rifles had a to-hit modifier for close range fire in TT and that is it.

In addition, in TT, even with the short range modifier, it was still easier to hit with a gauss rifle at 10m than it was at 600m.

SO ... if you want to "balance" the gauss rifle based on TT rules by adding a "minimum range to hit" modifier ... then you have to make it more difficult for the gauss to hit at long range as well since it CLEARLY can't be balanced then either since by your reasoning it is too easy for a gauss to hit at short range in MWO ... but it is easier for the gauss to hit at point blank range in table top rather than long range even WITH a modifier for close range fire ... thus it is too easy to hit with a gauss at ALL ranges in MWO.

Do you see the problem? The "minimum range" to hit modifier in TT is a straw man argument in MWO since targeting is not done by dice rolls ... and the weapon implementation in MWO is not directly comparable to TT.

[Xenok]

SmithMPBT, on 19 November 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

There will always be the guy who uses the most Exploitive Loadout allowed, in between checking his K/D ratio. Fix the hardpoints, problem solved.

Fix the hardpoints game is ruined as all the mechs will play the same. This game will be a load of fun as long as every mech design has a weakness. The gausscat is great, until you get a good Jenner player behind you and you have no support. You are dead playing the gausscat in this case. So long as there is a regularly played counter to a mech the world of MechWarrior is good. I cannot wait for some of our future mechs because based on the TT default models you will have a lot more mechs that need fixed hard points from your perspective. It will be awesome.

[SouthernRex]

No. Next.

[leatherneck]

Mawai, on 19 November 2012 - 09:21 AM, said:

Just curious what you mean by "60m minimum range".

The gauss rifle doesn't have a minimum range in TT. The only weapon with an actual minimum range in TT is the PPC.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_Rifle

[Hikyuu]

Purplefluffybunny, on 18 November 2012 - 01:53 AM, said:

I have noticed that when mounted on the Atlas the Gauss rifle has a tendency to blow up and take out the mech straight away. There seems to be some error that results in a critical hit nearly every time I take out the side torso where the ballistic mounts are located.

Indeed, every time I come up against an Atlas with a Gauss I smile knowing that shortly that that Atlas, will be dead. Gauss OP you say? Not from my perspective.

thats because the gauss has 7 slots in the mech. if that torso is critical the likelyhood of the gauss exploding is higher than typical weapons (like the card trick, except theres 10 cards instead of 3 and 7 cards are the queen)

leatherneck, on 19 November 2012 - 04:15 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gauss_Rifle

actually the PPC didn't technically have a minimum range, you just had to turn off the inhibitors, and even then, it could short out your console & or Kill you.