30 replies to this topic

[Plepis]

I've been lurking around on the MWO Forums for some time now, and recently i really got into the game, and since i didn't get a Founder's Pack, i've been planning ahead all mech chassis/variants i intend to get/have, and recently i developed a liking to both Hunchbacks and Ballistic weapons, so i cooked up a 4G in two variants that i thought i'd share around here for some opinion, and tweaking tips and overall input, so there we go.

The idea behind both proposed prorotypes was to work out as a "sideline brawler"; not really being the frontliner, but also not the long range sniper, relying primarily on ballistic options to dish out dmg

Build 1: ac/5+MG


AC/5 x2 (4 Tons Ammo)
Machine Gun (1 Ton Ammo)
AMS (1 Ton Ammo)
Medium Pulse Laser x2

Variant Name: Silly gunner

Spoiler

Variant Name: Silly gunner


Engine: 200 XL Engine
Internal Type: Endo Steel
Armor Type: Std Armor
Heat Sinks: 11 (8) Double Heat Sinks

Tonnage: 50,00
Speed: 64,8 kph
Armor Total: 320
Alpha Strike Damage: 22,04
Alpha Strike Heat: 12,00
Firepower: 9,16 dps
Heat Efficiency: 40,07%
Effective Range of Loadout: 540m

Head: 18/18
Right Torso: 40/48
Right Rear Torso: 8/48
Center Torso: 52/64
Center Rear Torso: 10/64
Left Torso: 40/48
Left Rear Torso: 8/48
Right Arm: 32/32
Left Arm: 32/32
Right Leg: 40/48
Left Leg: 40/48

The main goal here was building a brawling hunchie around ballistic weapons mostly, with dual ac/5 to really pound it in, and the Machine Gun for when i get an exposed core, or try to take out a nasty weapon with critical hits. the XL engine and Endosteel were to manage tonnage. As it is, i've gotten all 78 critical slots, and 50Tons covered.


Build 2: Triple ac/2's+ dual Small Lasers

AC/2 x3 (4 Tons Ammo)
AMS (1 Ton Ammo)
Small Laser x2


Variant Name: Minigunner

Spoiler

Variant Name: Minigunner

Engine: 200 Reg Engine
Internal Type: Endo Steel
Armor Type: Ferro Fibrous
Heat Sinks: 10 (8) Double Heat Sinks

Tonnage: 49,93
Speed: 64,8 kph
Armor Total: 338
Alpha Strike Damage: 12,00
Alpha Strike Heat: 7,00
Firepower: 14,00 dps
Heat Efficiency: 19,09%
Effective Range of Loadout: 720m

Head: 18/18
Right Torso: 40/48
Right Rear Torso: 8/48
Center Torso: 54/64
Center Rear Torso: 10/64
Left Torso: 40/48
Left Rear Torso: 8/48
Right Arm: 32/32
Left Arm: 32/32
Right Leg: 48/48
Left Leg: 48/48

Traded the XL engine for a reg 200, added FF for less weight, maxed all possible armor 1 less DHS, downgraded to 2x small lasers and switched main guns to 3x AC/2... I fear chaining them and/or 4 tons ammo isn't really enough, hence a small tweak into build 3


Build 3: Triple AC/2's + triple small lasers


AC/2 x3 (4 Tons Ammo)
AMS (1 Ton Ammo)
Small Laser x3

Variant Name: Minigunner 2

Spoiler

Variant Name: Minigunner 2

Engine: 200 Reg Engine
Internal Type: Endo Steel
Armor Type: Ferro Fibrous
Heat Sinks: 10 (8) Double Heat Sinks

Tonnage: 49,98
Speed: 64,8 kph
Armor Total: 322
Alpha Strike Damage: 15,00
Alpha Strike Heat: 9,00
Firepower: 15,00 dps
Heat Efficiency: 17,50%
Effective Range of Loadout: 720m

Head: 18/18
Right Torso: 40/48
Right Rear Torso: 8/48
Center Torso: 54/64
Center Rear Torso: 10/64
Left Torso: 40/48
Left Rear Torso: 8/48
Right Arm: 32/32
Left Arm: 32/32
Right Leg: 40/48
Left Leg: 40/48

Even tighter tonnage build, 1 extra small laser, 8 less armor each leg. Still has the whole "4 tons of ac/2 ammo" issue.


Well, there you go, i know it's prolly a lot for one post, but any feedback, advice and/or tip is appreciated

[ScrapIron Prime]

Triple AC/2 setups don't really do a lot of damage. What they're good for is constantly rocking an enemy mech so your team mates can savage it with THEIR firepower at little risk to themselves. perfect for things with large ballistic weapons and/or long range direct fire guns.

the dual AC/5 build has promise, as those guns put out some nice DPS and drill through armor at a reasonable rate as well as rocking the target. you're going to want more than 60 shots per gun, though. I'd suggest dropping the single machine gun (it's nearly useless anyway) for another ton of AC ammo and a half ton of armor. And My preference would be to drop the pulse lasers to regular lasers an use the 2 tons saved for another ton of AC ammo and a TAG in the head.

[Plepis]

ScrapIron Prime, on 19 November 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

dropping the single machine gun (it's nearly useless anyway) for another ton of AC ammo and a half ton of armor. And My preference would be to drop the pulse lasers to regular lasers an use the 2 tons saved for another ton of AC ammo and a TAG in the head.

I was reading around in the forums that Machine Guns were supposed to be crit seekers; From what i understand, they have the ability to take out weaponry without needing to explode the mech section such gun is intalled at. That, and chew on exposed sections of armor like it's nobody's business...

Does it mean MGs are broken, or they just doesn't work as advertised?

[Taizan]

ScrapIron Prime, on 19 November 2012 - 08:25 PM, said:

the dual AC/5 build has promise, as those guns put out some nice DPS and drill through armor at a reasonable rate as well as rocking the target.

With Dual AC/5s he might have the problem of slot allocation for both FF/Endo as the Mechlab auto assigns Armor slots and (maybe I don't get it though) you are not able to change them.


Personal opinion:
Well I'm now on my third hunchie to get master and to me it feels like the 4G is the worst of all models available. This is just a personal opinion nevertheless. That huge box on your shoulder + arm will go amiss faster than the YLWs right arm. Even if you turn away you can't really protect it, you are basically carrying your own casket on your shoulder.

Engine:
Generally I like to have a speedier engine for additional mobility + faster torso turning. 64.8 kph will feel ridiculously slow on the battlefield and imo you need to dodge in a lot to keep those 2/3 of your firepower alive. If you want to stick with the 200 engine, definitely take AMS with you, you will be a very slow target for some smart LRM pilots. I'd be vey careful with an XL on a 4G, your right torso will be a prime target (also has a higher repair cost afaik).

Weapons / Hardpoints:
I've gone through several builds twin AC/2, AC/5, LBX/10 and Ultra AC/5. Currently I am not satisfied with any of them, the UAC/5 is kind of fun, but ofc likes to jam in the worst moments.

Afaik in one of the early videos (on IGN I think) the 4G used to have dual lasers on the arms like the SP, but it seems they limited the hardpoints, so in general you will always have a medium damage build, probably around 25-35 damage at the most. This means you need a high survivability for sustained damage during the battle, once again favouring more speed.

Upgrades:
Go Endo + DHS only at first, FF brings a higher repair cost with it (except you have tons of C-bills and this is not a worry)

My conclusion:
If you like small lasers and energy weapons, go for the 4P, if you like a big gun with you, go for the 4H. Leave the 4G. The 4J and 4G are mediocre "inbetween" chassis in my opinion. I'd say the most balanced HBK is probably the SP with the 4H being next up.

FYI:
My current HBK-4G build
UAC/5 Shoulder + 3 Tons Ammo
AMS + 1 Ton
Standard 250 Engine
2 MPLasers
1 MLaser
1 DHS
Endo + FF

Speed 81 kph (+ 10% with speed tweak)
50 Tons exactly
Full armor
Heat 1.17
22 (DPS? Firepower

Edited by Taizan, 19 November 2012 - 09:09 PM.

[Selfish]

I've mastered all the HBK variants, which doesn't mean much, but I can offer my opinion. If you want to make the G variant shine, you should really stick to the AC20. The idea is that you want to minimize the time your torso is available to receive fire, and maximize the output of damage within that time. The 20 does this, and out of the three Mlas you can keep two on target without directly facing opponents.

It's not a complex or highly unique build:

STD 225
Endo-Steel
DHS (1 extra)
AC/20 (3 tons)
3x Mlas
AMS (1 ton)

This gives you a full firing alpha of 35, and enough rounds to change a game. This is the same alpha as an H Variant running AC10 + 5x MLas. That's fairly competitive, if not a bit slower on the kph end. The advantage is that 20 of that alpha can be applied exceedingly quickly, and you can protect your vital hunch that much faster.

The other AC builds are alright, just not my speed. All HBKs sans SP must show their hunch at some point, and often for extended periods of time. If you find they mesh with your playstyle then all the better. This is just one build that can offer a bit more protection than the majority of HBKs, yet much less than the SP.

[Elizander]

Plepis, on 19 November 2012 - 07:11 PM, said:

Build 1: ac/5+MG

AC/5 x2 (4 Tons Ammo)
Machine Gun (1 Ton Ammo)
AMS (1 Ton Ammo)
Medium Pulse Laser x2

Well, there you go, i know it's prolly a lot for one post, but any feedback, advice and/or tip is appreciated

There is a problem with mixing in MGs with your AC/5. You might have to lead with your AC/5 shots against faster targets and this will make the MG miss or not hit the same spot your AC/5s will hit. It's not crippling but it's rather ineffective. You are probably better off getting a third laser on the head so you can at least zombie once they blow up your right torso.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Plepis, on 19 November 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

I was reading around in the forums that Machine Guns were supposed to be crit seekers; From what i understand, they have the ability to take out weaponry without needing to explode the mech section such gun is intalled at. That, and chew on exposed sections of armor like it's nobody's business...

Does it mean MGs are broken, or they just doesn't work as advertised?

machine guns need a damage buff, and the devs have said they're looking into it. 3 or 4 MG firing together are nice crit seekers but still don't do much damage. 1 MG is a waste of tonnage.

[Plepis]

Everyone thank you very much for the input so far, it's all getting me thinking about possibilities and room for improvement! Just a couple things i'd like to comment on:

Taizan, on 19 November 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

With Dual AC/5s he might have the problem of slot allocation for both FF/Endo as the Mechlab auto assigns Armor slots and (maybe I don't get it though) you are not able to change them.

I'm not really featuring FF on the AC/5 build, only on both triple AC/2's, but about that auto assign thingie, i remember some fixed structural crit slots being assigned o nmy SP when i did apply endosteel, might indeed impact on equipping stuff where i wanted to.

Quote

Engine:
Generally I like to have a speedier engine for additional mobility + faster torso turning. 64.8 kph will feel ridiculously slow on the battlefield and imo you need to dodge in a lot to keep those 2/3 of your firepower alive. If you want to stick with the 200 engine, definitely take AMS with you, you will be a very slow target for some smart LRM pilots. I'd be vey careful with an XL on a 4G, your right torso will be a prime target (also has a higher repair cost afaik).

Afaik in one of the early videos (on IGN I think) the 4G used to have dual lasers on the arms like the SP, but it seems they limited the hardpoints, so in general you will always have a medium damage build, probably around 25-35 damage at the most. This means you need a high survivability for sustained damage during the battle, once again favouring more speed.

Not to mention, losing the XL... Encountering a couple G variants, i noticed how much the RT sticks out and begs to be shot at

Quote

Go Endo + DHS only at first, FF brings a higher repair cost with it

FF was only considered for reducing *that* much on weight, which i had the spare criticals to get away with on builds 2 and 3. Thanks for the extra repair bill note though.

Quote

My conclusion:
If you like small lasers and energy weapons, go for the 4P, if you like a big gun with you, go for the 4H. Leave the 4G. The 4J and 4G are mediocre "inbetween" chassis in my opinion. I'd say the most balanced HBK is probably the SP with the 4H being next up.

Guilty. I only considered the G because of the ballistic hardpoints, which i'll admit i'm a sucker for that kind of weaponry. I'll make a P for my 3rd Hbk, but they kind of feedback i'm getting ingame and on the forums about the G is starting to rub off on me on considering making an H instead.

Selfish, on 19 November 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

If you want to make the G variant shine, you should really stick to the AC20. The idea is that you want to minimize the time your torso is available to receive fire, and maximize the output of damage within that time. The 20 does this, and out of the three Mlas you can keep two on target without directly facing opponents.

The thought process behind going dual AC/5's wasn't exactly about aplha strikes, but rather sustained damage overtime. If i miss one or two shots with a chain-firing dual AC/5 setup, i lose half the potential DPS i'll lose when i miss an AC/20 Round, but i see your point there. I think i'm just too used to the SP brawling style, that i didn't consider as much the health hazards of being out there duking it out, specially with an xl engine on it, that's why i even considered the triple AC/2's on the 2nd and 3rd builds featuring the STD 200

Quote

This gives you a full firing alpha of 35, and enough rounds to change a game. This is the same alpha as an H Variant running AC10 + 5x MLas. That's fairly competitive, if not a bit slower on the kph end. The advantage is that 20 of that alpha can be applied exceedingly quickly, and you can protect your vital hunch that much faster.

The other AC builds are alright, just not my speed. All HBKs sans SP must show their hunch at some point, and often for extended periods of time. If you find they mesh with your playstyle then all the better. This is just one build that can offer a bit more protection than the majority of HBKs, yet much less than the SP.

I'm starting to notice a trend between Hbk users... Is the size of the alpha (then retreating) really that much more that vital than staying power/sustainability because of that big juicy torso?

Elizander, on 19 November 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

There is a problem with mixing in MGs with your AC/5. You might have to lead with your AC/5 shots against faster targets and this will make the MG miss or not hit the same spot your AC/5s will hit. It's not crippling but it's rather ineffective. You are probably better off getting a third laser on the head so you can at least zombie once they blow up your right torso.

Well this wouldn't exactly be an issue since i was planning on leaving the MG on a sepparate weapon group than the AC/5's...

[Selfish]

Plepis, on 19 November 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

I'm starting to notice a trend between Hbk users... Is the size of the alpha (then retreating) really that much more that vital than staying power/sustainability because of that big juicy torso?

Yes, although most of it is just how the added speed can keep you alive in a match full of meaner mechs. You're really not a brawling mech, and most everyone is already running their HBK at max armor (torsos at least). There's only so many hits you can take. At best, you're a mobile brawler that twirls through a melee like a flower girl in a pretty new dress. You're not totally helpless, but chances are you'll be outclassed in most matches. You just need to ride that razor's edge for awhile before you get a feel for what situations might be worth the beating.

[Plepis]

Selfish, on 20 November 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

You're really not a brawling mech

Been looking for pretty much that answer for quite a while now

As of now, which would you name are the top 5 brawling mechs..?

[Agent 0range]

I got the 4G because it is iconic and I am loving it with an ac20 and 2 medium pulse laser in the arms one med laser in the head 3 tons of ammo and DH . no Ams as I normally follow an assault and leach his defense but I do keep pesky lights of his back with the pulses and use the AC to assist

[Flapdrol]

Double ultra ac5 might be nice too. If you dont doublefire them they dont jam, and they still reload MUCH faster than a normal ac5 and have better range.

[Plepis]

@Flapdrol

About dual UAC/5 does sound interesting. I wonder how it'd play out on a 4G with tonnage and backup weaponry. Do you have any 2x UAC/5 hunchies built?



Looking at the UAC/5 weapon stats from Mechlab Program, it seems they got some pretty high values as far as DPS goes. Any idea if those stats are included double firing them..?

[Outfoxed]

Assuming you are going for sustained damage (DPS) over Alpha strike lets look at some maths.

2x UAC/5: Weight = 18 tons, Slots = 10, DPS = 9.08 (assuming you are not double firing)

3x AC/2: Weight = 18 tones, Slots = 3, DPS = 12

So if you are not going to double shoot your UACs due to fear of jams and want dps over alpha my money is on the DAKKA DAKKA tripple AC/2 Build.

[Taizan]

Plepis, on 19 November 2012 - 09:44 PM, said:

I'm starting to notice a trend between Hbk users... Is the size of the alpha (then retreating) really that much more that vital than staying power/sustainability because of that big juicy torso?

Its mostly because as a medium you aren't that flexible to quickly retreat like a light and don't have the staying power of a heavy / assault. Personally for me hit & run or interims support is the role I feel the most comfortable in. Its not all about the alpha strike, but in my opinion when you hit, you want to hit hard (components / assist shots) until your staying threshold is reached and then make it an annoyance to get back at you.

With the latest patch (as of today) UACs seem to auto unjam, so maybe 2 UACs actually are a decent option on the 4G. Still as you mentioned you like the ballistic weapons, I'd go with a similar build that Selfish mentions, the 225 will get you up to 68 standard kph (about), so you will be a bit quicker on your feet which is always useful when you get too much attention. Also the AC/20 has a decent punch to it. Alternatively you might want to think about mounting a gauss rifle instead.

[Taizan]

Hey Plepis, just wanted to give you a heads up, you might want to try the 4G with dual AC/5s & 2 tons ammo + 3 MPLasers. AC5 for distance shots and pot shots, 3 med lasers for close up. 49.5 tons with endo/FF/DHS and still 28 damage.

Currently I'm running with it and kind of satisfied - you don't want to get caught in the middle of a fight, hang around the edges and assist. With standard engine and speed tweak I am doing around 70 kp/h which still isn't as fast as I would like, but up till now it works out.

[SmithMPBT]

Plepis, on 19 November 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

I was reading around in the forums that Machine Guns were supposed to be crit seekers; From what i understand, they have the ability to take out weaponry without needing to explode the mech section such gun is intalled at. That, and chew on exposed sections of armor like it's nobody's business...

Does it mean MGs are broken, or they just doesn't work as advertised?

Makes sense theyd be crit seekers cuz of the number of rounds hitting. I know LBX-10X works that way. So MGs must be broken.

[Plepis]

Taizan, on 20 November 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

With the latest patch (as of today) UACs seem to auto unjam, so maybe 2 UACs actually are a decent option on the 4G.

Thought about trying to fit dual uac/5's after i read patch notes, just gotta start grinding the c-bills for the hunchie.

Taizan, on 20 November 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Hey Plepis, just wanted to give you a heads up, you might want to try the 4G with dual AC/5s & 2 tons ammo + 3 MPLasers. AC5 for distance shots and pot shots, 3 med lasers for close up. 49.5 tons with endo/FF/DHS and still 28 damage.

What's the Heat Efficiency of this? Sounds appealing but also sounds a bit hot. Do you chain fire those AC/5's on close range too?



Also, does anyone know if UAC/5's, when chainfired and the button held down, will doublefire?

[Taizan]

Plepis, on 20 November 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

What's the Heat Efficiency of this? Sounds appealing but also sounds a bit hot. Do you chain fire those AC/5's on close range too?

Yes, Chainfire on the ACs. Also I usually mostly use the arm lasers seperately (LMB/RMB) and the head laser separately, never all three at once.

Heat efficiency is base 1.06 (1.21 due to elite pilot 2 X bonus), You can bump it up to 1.16 base (1.33 elite 2x) with normal medium lasers.

[RFMarine]

MG's are mentioned in the patch notes today