351 replies to this topic

[UncleKulikov]

Hayashi, on 30 April 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Ton for ton, PPCs do the most damage. Even if a PPC matches an AC/10, the former is 7 tons, the latter is 12 tons. If we make up the difference with 6 heat sinks (because the AC/10 needs ammo) the PPC will be able to fire nonstop, and its range is far greater.

The AC/20 is more worth it, since it's 14 tons and exactly 2x the weight of a PPC. They'll be evenly matched when you bulk up ammo on the former and heat sinks on the second... except the PPC has greater range. But bringing a AC/10 to a PPC fight is a Very Bad Idea.

I prefer my weapons to be balanced, but honestly the previous MW titles have done a crap job at doing ammunition based weapons justice. TT is better at it, by far... and if MWO follows MW2/3/4's legacy you'll see me using mainly energy based weapons, along with everyone else.

In MW4: Mercs, a 4 ER PPC Sunder is basically The Best 'Mech, with the ability chainfire the ER PPCs to deal with vehicles and alpha on 'Mechs... which can OHKO an Osiris from 900+m away. Really hoping not to see that happen here.

THIS

[Garth Erlam]

Hayashi, on 30 April 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Ton for ton, PPCs do the most damage. Even if a PPC matches an AC/10, the former is 7 tons, the latter is 12 tons. If we make up the difference with 6 heat sinks (because the AC/10 needs ammo) the PPC will be able to fire nonstop, and its range is far greater. The AC/20 is more worth it, since it's 14 tons and exactly 2x the weight of a PPC. They'll be evenly matched when you bulk up ammo on the former and heat sinks on the second... except the PPC has greater range. But bringing a AC/10 to a PPC fight is a Very Bad Idea.

And how well will that PPC do point blank against an AC/20?
Don't forget that we play this too, and the second any weapon set deviates from the norm, we'll check it out. Also consider that PPCs do 10 damage, and AC/20's do 20 ;D

[DerangedShadow]

Garth Erlam, on 02 May 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

And how well will that PPC do point blank against an AC/20?
Don't forget that we play this too, and the second any weapon set deviates from the norm, we'll check it out. Also consider that PPCs do 10 damage, and AC/20's do 20 ;D

I love it when you guys come in and give your two cents.

[William Petersen]

8100d 5p4tt3r, on 02 May 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

There is a coolant pod for Table top if this hasn't been mentioned yet.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coolant_Pod

Oh really?

William Petersen, on 01 May 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

That's nice that's how you see it, but that's not how it actually is in the TT (I can't speak to 'canon' in the regard because I've not read a whole lot of the novels). The only 'coolant flush' is provided by coolant pods which may or may not be an option (not quite sure when the tech was available). And that still doesn't instantly set your heat down to 0, it simply increases the efficiency of your heat sinks (for 10 seconds).

[EDMW]CSN, on 02 May 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Make it simple.
If you want coolant flush ?
Use the experimental coolant pods. They weight a ton, take 1 crit and explode if hit.

Togg Bott, on 01 May 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

this from sarna. "Coolant pods are highly susceptible to weapon fire, a fully pressurized pod will rupture and cause internal damage in the same manner of an ammunition explosion if struck. To avoid over-pressurizing and damaging the coolant systems of the equipped 'Mech, for safety reasons only one pod can be engaged at a time, though multiple pods can be carried. The violent release of coolant is damaging enough to the strained cooling systems of BattleMechs, the fragile modular coolant systems aboard OmniMechs consistently fail under the strain despite years of research by the Clans."

That's 3 times. Just on page 8.

Edited by William Petersen, 02 May 2012 - 12:31 PM.

[Hayashi]

Garth Erlam, on 02 May 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

And how well will that PPC do point blank against an AC/20?
Don't forget that we play this too, and the second any weapon set deviates from the norm, we'll check it out. Also consider that PPCs do 10 damage, and AC/20's do 20 ;D

But PPCs are exactly half the weight (as already stated in that part which you quoted), and AC/20s only get 5 shots per ton, and their ammo may explode.

I'm hoping you'd tell me how well a PPC does against an AC/20 point blank, to be honest. Please say the magic words "minimum range", and I can go have a cookie to celebrate.

[Ravn]

What if he says minimum range for maximum effectiveness?

[Rejarial Galatan]

<smashes his head THROUGH a ferroglass canopy in frustration> for the love of chocolate covered er large lasers. Why do you people ASSUME I MEAN UNLIMITED FLUSHING? oh hush those of you who wanna take that in a nasty direction. I am guessing my explination of what I mean is needed yet again. Look, its like this. Have some sort of limited coolant flush, 2 to 3 SECONDS of viability then the tank is EMPTY. garsh, its not that bloody hard to see what i mean. And to YOU W. Petersen, i say: there are those who grew up on modding, cheating and exploiting every glitch they can find. I am not one of those. I am also the type who grew up playing games when SKILL meant something, and when the learning curve made scalpals look dull. I am trying to get everyone to understand something. Those players who ONLY know this sort of system, the easy button, glitch, hack, mod, etc system do NOT have the patience to ya know, LEARN as long as this game will take. I my self will most likely NEVER use these systems because playing MechWarrior 2, MW2 Ghost Bears Legacy and MW2 Mercenaries taught me the skills needed to MAKE EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT energy based weapon platforms. I beg you guys, look at the new players who think games should be perma easy. Heck, its WHY World of Warcraft lost 2+ MILLION players after the recent Expansion Cataclysm hit. Those of us who were Vanilla WoW <pre ANY expansion> veterans KNEW how hard the game WAS, those who learned it thru easy button mode, got upset and rage quit after the mechancs turned back into Vanilla WoW. Look. just think of all those players out there who can learn easier with these sorts of things put in. <is soo tired of trying to get... >

[Zylo]

Rejarial Galatan, on 02 May 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

I am trying to get everyone to understand something. Those players who ONLY know this sort of system, the easy button, glitch, hack, mod, etc system do NOT have the patience to ya know, LEARN as long as this game will take.

Look. just think of all those players out there who can learn easier with these sorts of things put in. <is soo tired of trying to get... >

Seriously, give the whole "The new players NEED these features" point a rest. The new players can learn like everyone else because everyone will be new to this game. You're just making it sound like it's a feature you need each time you say it. Flushing coolant (unlimited or not) is for those who can't manage heat. Skill means alot more when there isn't an easy button to make up for a mistake like letting your heat get to the point of needing to coolant flush.

If you are suggesting players will quit over something like not being able to flush coolant what do you expect them to do when they run into other game mechanics they don't like? If anything a new player wouldn't have a clue they could coolant flush which counter to your point would make things more difficult for a new player.

Don't cater to the easy-button crowd, this game will be better off without them since they would eventually find something that was too difficult and leave anyway.

[Ravn]

I actually don't think it makes the game easier. I always found it a little distracting to try to time or decide when and if I should use coolant flush. I think it is much easier to play the heat as it comes and take shots as allowable.

Edit: Also, there already is a temperature override button that keeps the mech from shutting down but allows you to superheat and explode.

Edited by Ravn, 02 May 2012 - 08:28 PM.

[Chatanith Raeven]

I'm definitely going to mix it up, energy AND ammo driven. Need to "hope for the best, and plan for the worst...."

[Yeach]

and the thread conversation vears from economics... ie in my mind C-bills

I think I'll make a thread more specific defined.

[Zylo]

Ravn, on 02 May 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

I actually don't think it makes the game easier. I always found it a little distracting to try to time or decide when and if I should use coolant flush. I think it is much easier to play the heat as it comes and take shots as allowable.

Edit: Also, there already is a temperature override button that keeps the mech from shutting down but allows you to superheat and explode.

I would expect an override option, but like you mentioned there is significant risk with that option.

The issue with coolant flush is that there really isn't the same risk and it allows an easy dump of heat to for example finish off a kill vs having to slow down a bit to control heat to finish that kill. It does make it easier for a player to run hot and recover. Even assigning a high refill cost in C-bills to coolant that was flushed wouldn't really counter the lack of risk involved in flushing coolant to remove heat.

I think it would just get players into the habit of loading up on high damage hot weapons knowing that they could just coolant flush if they got too hot vs designing mechs that could handle the heat without the need to flush coolant.

[Myst Lynx]

If you are part of an offical house military unit wouldn't they take the cost of ammo? I think only mercs and free lancer should have to buy ammo, house military will simply be given what they need.

Edited by Myst Lynx, 02 May 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[Ravn]

My issue with coolant isn't so much that it is an easy out. My issue is that it doesn't make sense to me as an engineer, that it's not cannon to the novels, and that it has never been implemented how TT recommends (crit slot - explosive)

[Zylo]

Yeach, on 02 May 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

and the thread conversation vears from economics... ie in my mind C-bills

I think I'll make a thread more specific defined.

The thread was only slightly off the economic topic. Part of the economic balance with energy weapons is that they run hot vs ammo weapons that should run cooler for the damage done. The cost for running cooler is C-bills spent for ammo. The concept of a coolant flush tips the balance too far in the favor of energy weapons, even if there was a high cost in C-bills to replace the lost coolant as the energy weapons could still be used without reserve coolant while ammo-based weapons become useless without ammo.

[Ravn]

Myst Lynx, on 02 May 2012 - 08:45 PM, said:

If you are part of an offical house military unit wouldn't they take the cost of ammo? I think only mercs and free lancer should have to buy ammo, house military will simply be given what they need.

That has been mentioned before, and I liked the idea. It was also mentioned that this is why most merc units used more energy based weapons.

[Terick]

Orzorn, on 30 April 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

They do not come with ammo. Each ton of ammo for the AC/20 is 10 rounds.

Errr.... No Each ton of AC/20 ammo is 5 shots. For an AC/20 and ten shot is 16 tons.

I think we are going to be forced in to using some ammo consuming weapons for the very fact of heat. One thins MW4 did was make Heatsinks take up NO space inside fo a mech. What this meant is I coudl fit pure energy weapons and add as many heatsinks as I wanted.

If we go by what we saw for the mech lab the interior or crit space of each mech is going to be the same as TT rules. What this means is once you ahve all the heatsinks your enegine will hold then you are going to need one crit space for each standard heat sink and THREE slots for each double heatsink. This might seem like a nonissue, but coulnt open slots in a mech.

Head = 1
CT =2
side torses = 12 each
Arms without lower arm actuator and hands = 10 each
Legs = 2 each

This means that at MOST you can load 14 more double heatsinks then your engine will hold and then that leaves you space for...nine medium lasers... NO PPCs/ER PPCs since each PPC/ER PPC takes as much space as one double heatsink. You could go with three LLs with oen each the legs and CT, and have three MLs for support... does that strike you as weak firepower for a Hv mech? It should.

What this means is that for lighter mechs where tonnage is the concern your going to use double heatsinks. For assault mechs where space will be an issue your going to use single heats in some cases because you can get more heat dissipation per slot.

This is for IS tech. Clan double Heat sinks take two slots. SO they maintain the 1:1 heat for crit slot ratio.

The short of it. Because of the space limitations in mechs all energy designs are going to be under strength compared to ballistic mechs in the short term. So it is easier for the ballistic pilot to kill you faster then for the energy boat. If the ballistic pilot wastes ammo then the energy pilot is going to win by default.

Some additional notes on tangents.

Coolant pods, look them up. Were in table top and were designed to dump/flush the coolant of mech. Required space and weight. They do exist. I probably won't use it. I prescribe to the bracket method of weapons. Dumping ALL the coolant in a mech should kill you.

PPC stay cohesive longer then a ballistic projectile.... do you really understand what a PPC is? Particle stream focused and fired out of a 'cannon.' We don't use them because they dissipate FASTER then a bullet, as in a few inches as the particles in the stream hit particles in air... particles like nitrogen, oxygen, you know, the thing that MAKE an atmosphere... In vacuum lasers have an unlimited range, particles weapons are affected by the gravity, but then there isn't' any air resistance to ballistic weapons and ballistics are affected by gravity also...

Edited by Terick, 02 May 2012 - 09:55 PM.

[guardian wolf]

8100d 5p4tt3r, on 02 May 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

There is a coolant pod for Table top if this hasn't been mentioned yet.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coolant_Pod

There is, but it costs tonnage, money, and if you aren't so lucky, an internal explosion that really friggin hurts.

Garth Erlam, on 02 May 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

And how well will that PPC do point blank against an AC/20?
Don't forget that we play this too, and the second any weapon set deviates from the norm, we'll check it out. Also consider that PPCs do 10 damage, and AC/20's do 20 ;D

HE'S HERE!!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!! Thank you for clarifying that.

[Ursus_Spiritus]

Rejarial Galatan, on 02 May 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

<smashes his head THROUGH a ferroglass canopy in frustration> for the love of chocolate covered er large lasers. Why do you people ASSUME I MEAN UNLIMITED FLUSHING? oh hush those of you who wanna take that in a nasty direction. I am guessing my explination of what I mean is needed yet again. Look, its like this. Have some sort of limited coolant flush, 2 to 3 SECONDS of viability then the tank is EMPTY. garsh, its not that bloody hard to see what i mean. And to YOU W. Petersen, i say: there are those who grew up on modding, cheating and exploiting every glitch they can find. I am not one of those. I am also the type who grew up playing games when SKILL meant something, and when the learning curve made scalpals look dull. I am trying to get everyone to understand something. Those players who ONLY know this sort of system, the easy button, glitch, hack, mod, etc system do NOT have the patience to ya know, LEARN as long as this game will take. I my self will most likely NEVER use these systems because playing MechWarrior 2, MW2 Ghost Bears Legacy and MW2 Mercenaries taught me the skills needed to MAKE EFFECTIVE AND EFFICIENT energy based weapon platforms. I beg you guys, look at the new players who think games should be perma easy. Heck, its WHY World of Warcraft lost 2+ MILLION players after the recent Expansion Cataclysm hit. Those of us who were Vanilla WoW <pre ANY expansion> veterans KNEW how hard the game WAS, those who learned it thru easy button mode, got upset and rage quit after the mechancs turned back into Vanilla WoW. Look. just think of all those players out there who can learn easier with these sorts of things put in. <is soo tired of trying to get... >

<thumbs up>

[CyberCrist]

Personally I like things that got BOOM.... so I will be using ballistics.