351 replies to this topic

[Hayashi]

Rhinehart, on 30 April 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

PPCs are some of the highest heat weapons in the game if not the highest. MW4 players got a very skewed view of PPCs and heat dissipation as heat disipation was far too easy and double heat sinks were the norm and could be loaded in large amounts. You have to go all the way back to MW 2 Mercs to find a game that does justice to exactly how hard it is to cool a PPC equiped mech with single heat sinks

MW2: Mercs is still skewed. The Warhawks mounted 4x ERPPCs as well, and didn't quite overheat. But because of the high travel time of PPCs in MW2, at least it took some skill for the PPCs to hit, whereas the annoyance of MW4 is that it's highly damaging, fast, easy to dissipate, pinpoint accurate and had no minimum range. Not to mention that in MW4 heat sinks weren't limited by critical spaces.

In spite of being quite the fan of MW games IMO all of the previous ones failed to take heat into account properly - all of them underestimated its effects.

[Kreisel]

Rhavin, on 30 April 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

I am pretty sure that the devs have said that lasers will do DoT for the duration of the laser's "Burn". If I had more time I would find it in the dev blog somewhere. As I said I am pretty sure I saw this posted. Would make sense though as a laser uses heat to do damage, there would be no impact till it burned into something that was capable of explodeing. Ballistic weapons use impact to cause damage. Much of this game will depend on pilot skill me thinks and me hopes!

Yeah, the Dev's mentioned Lasers being damage over time as one of the ways to limit how OP Alpha striking one location for tons of damage would be. You can kinda tell how they work if you watch the videos of game play they stay on for a few seconds and often have their damage get dragged across the mech from one side to the other. In one Video a pilot takes a clear shot into the center of a foe and while the lasers are still on an ally cuts though them, getting their back burned by half of them in the process. I really do expect lasers are going to do a lot more spread out damage unless you can hold them perfectly in one spot (especially on smaller faster mechs.) It's going to make for some strange dymanics, like shots where you lead the target too much, miss a little but they still walk through them to take part of the damage, and being more useful against larger slower mechs than against fast little zippy ones that you can't hold it on the same section for a few seconds. Being hit with a ballistic after you've already fired your lasers may through off the latter part of the shot mitigating some damage.

Honestly I'm hoping we don't have much in the way of maintenance, ammo or repair costs. Their should be repair costs... but it starts to get tricky, if they are two high, players could literally start to get stuck in a loop where they have to field broken mechs, You could get caught in a bad streak of games and suddenly not have the C-bills to repair and have no choice but to play your next match with a busted one. Fighting in a unrepaired mech is sure to be an uphill battled, especially if you just lost a match in it while it was in fine condition. If you don't make more from the mission than it costs to repair, then you have to do it over again. It becomes a negative cycle where certain players will get trapped and frustrated that they are constantly just trying to keep up with repairs and can't get anything new, and so fall further and further behind until they give up. That's a bad system. Hopefully the Devs have figured this out, and repair costs wont overshoot how much you make for playing a match, only reduce the profit you come away with.

By the very nature of this being pvp and thus competitive system, at least half the playerbase has to lose a match for the other half to win at all. The average player getting balanced matches should win only about 50% of them. We all like to think were awsome and going to win most the time, but the truth of the matter is that atleast half of us are going to eject in over half of our matches. It's either that or expect to see a lot of withdrawing and surrendering to avoid taking too much damage. It needs to not be more profitable for a losing player to simply give up and walk off the field of combat or they will do so, just the way we've seen in any number of other point earning FPS.

and Maintenance costs could be a major problem. Lets say I can't play for a month for some reason, I log out. and some real life situation prevents me from playing for a prolonged period of time... when I log back in, should I be penalized in not only do I have to relearn my loyalty points... but all my mechs broke themselves or ate up all my c-bills and now I'm broke while I was offline? What about players who are casual or lose interest for a while but decide to come back to the game... it's going to make them much less interested in coming back if when they get online again all their stuff is messed up.

I know this may rub some people the wrong way, but repair costs need to be set somewhere relative to how much you make in a match so that you can roll out in an Atlas, unload all of you ammo, get completely blown up, lose the match, and still make a few c-bills profit when your done. Now mind you, you have to have done some work and damage for this to be the case, if you just afk and leave your Atlas (or even your commando) to be blown up, completely abandoning your teammates to fight the match without you... then yeah it ought to cost you more to field that mech than it did to fix it. But as long as your trying... even if you suuuuuuuck, the player should be rewarded for playing rather than penalized.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Hayashi, on 30 April 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

MW2: Mercs is still skewed. The Warhawks mounted 4x ERPPCs as well, and didn't quite overheat. But because of the high travel time of PPCs in MW2, at least it took some skill for the PPCs to hit, whereas the annoyance of MW4 is that it's highly damaging, fast, easy to dissipate, pinpoint accurate and had no minimum range. Not to mention that in MW4 heat sinks weren't limited by critical spaces.

In spite of being quite the fan of MW games IMO all of the previous ones failed to take heat into account properly - all of them underestimated its effects.

You underestimate the power of the ComSide...

Garth Erlam, on 26 March 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

It's a fairly large object (in the case of the Atlas it's, uh, the head) but due to movement, turning, bouncing about, actually landing repeated hits is tough. If you're thinking of AC/20ing the head, it's a lot harder than it might seem. Thomas is the main sniper - he tends to go either Hunchback or Swayback and just target the head. Seems like 50% of the time he headshots someone in his Swayback he manages to overheat and kill himself, hahaha.

Oh... I'm afaid the heat debuffs will be quite opperational when your friends (and family) arrive...

Edited by Prosperity Park, 30 April 2012 - 07:16 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Rinehart how do you figure that firing a PPC inside the minimum range will melt it into useless slag? By that logic, before the PPC beam gets to 90 meters lets say, the first shot destroys the weapon. Minimum range is how long it takes the beam to come to full power and cohesion in flight, nothing says you cant fire point blank, your gonna do less dmg, nothing else.

[Ravn]

Hayashi, on 30 April 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

In spite of being quite the fan of MW games IMO all of the previous ones failed to take heat into account properly - all of them underestimated its effects.

This is best represented by reading any of the BT novels. Hitting heat override was no big deal in past games, but the pilots were literally boiling themselves alive when they chose to do this. Hard to hit your mark when you can hardly breath and with eyes bleary from sweat.

Edit: Readability

Edited by Ravn, 30 April 2012 - 07:17 PM.

[Hayashi]

Ravn, on 30 April 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

This is best represented by reading any of the BT novels. Hitting heat override was no big deal in past games, but the pilots were literally boiling themselves alive when they chose to do this. Hard to hit your mark when you can hardly breath and with eyes bleary from sweat.

Hopefully we can have the cockpit blurring out, electronics fuzzing up and all that jazz when we get close to overheating.

[Orzorn]

Hayashi, on 30 April 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

In spite of being quite the fan of MW games IMO all of the previous ones failed to take heat into account properly - all of them underestimated its effects.

I think this is really the core of the issue. Essentially all previous games had a very, very lax take on heat. Heat should be crushingly difficult. In a list of priorities when creating mech variants, we should ALWAYS have heat as the number 1 issue. It should be ever present unless you literally stuff your mech full of heatsinks, and then if they get crit off you should still feel the pain. It should slow the movement of your mech (something NONE of the games have done), slow your torso and arm movement speeds (the rules represent this by reducing the accuracy of your weapons), and, of course, have a chance to cause ammo explosions (which, thankfully, are confirmed).

If those things were in the game, the popular mech builds that we saw in Mechwarrior 4 would have been moving and torso twisting at a snail's pace by riding the heat curve all game. That's how it should be.

[Rejarial Galatan]

I know what I am about to say has been on and the subject OF many threads, but, IF they make heat THIS harsh, and I honestly hope they do, to have the realism, they really really DO need to put in a coolant flush system, because if a mech is getting soo hot the displays start to wink on and off, you need to dump excess heat and do so FAST.

[Orzorn]

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 April 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

I know what I am about to say has been on and the subject OF many threads, but, IF they make heat THIS harsh, and I honestly hope they do, to have the realism, they really really DO need to put in a coolant flush system, because if a mech is getting soo hot the displays start to wink on and off, you need to dump excess heat and do so FAST.

No, they don't. Heat should be a big issue, and not something so easily overridden. If you make the decision to fire all your energy weapons at once, you WILL deal with the consequences.

[Ravn]

We are kind of on a tangent now, but what about losing heat sinks more readily during a match. In past games they have almost being integral to the area you loaded them, but in the novels they'd be ruined long before the area was completely compromised.

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 April 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

I know what I am about to say has been on and the subject OF many threads, but, IF they make heat THIS harsh, and I honestly hope they do, to have the realism, they really really DO need to put in a coolant flush system, because if a mech is getting soo hot the displays start to wink on and off, you need to dump excess heat and do so FAST.

I disagree heartily. I never understood this concept. Coolant is the life blood of your mech. Why would you dump it? If you have extra stores somewhere on your mech, why aren't you using it initially?

[Insidious Johnson]

I'd rather see shell casings hitting the floor than coolant. Doesn't look like "flush" will be an option. So, you can shut down and think about it while I gnaw your legs off, or you can eject after an override or two. I've never liked a mech without the 3 food groups in its loadout, energy, ballistic, and missle. Individually fired for best knockback while without cover.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Orzorn, on 30 April 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

No, they don't. Heat should be a big issue, and not something so easily overridden. If you make the decision to fire all your energy weapons at once, you WILL deal with the consequences.

Lets be clear on this, you would rather just say DEAL with the heat than have a way to cool your mech down when it matters most? Like when say, your running from a battle and and your firing everything and anything your mech has on it because your trying to slow the guy in pursuit? And now, when your mech is soo trashed that your only hope is to get that last shot off, and oh, look because your out of ammo, all you got is your energy weapon<s> left and 1 of 3 things is about to happen: 1. the next hit from the enemy is death to you. 2. YOUR next shot may kill you <cuz no coolant flush is there...> BUT, it WILL kill the enemy. OR 3. your next shot to slow them down, which you desperately need to make, but, your mechs soo hot, you WILL shut down if you fire, but if you DONT your dead? hmm, i say better to HAVE the ability and not NEED it than NEED it and not have it... sounds like something else....

[Orzorn]

Ravn, on 30 April 2012 - 07:33 PM, said:

We are kind of on a tangent now, but what about losing heat sinks more readily during a match. In past games they have almost being integral to the area you loaded them, but in the novels they'd be ruined long before the area was completely compromised.

You mean heatsinks taking damage naturally?

I don't think the rules from the TT support that.

[ArcaneIce]

I hadn't even thought of this to be honest but that's a really good point. I've got faith in the Devs though to balance it all out somehow.

[Ravn]

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 April 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Lets be clear on this, you would rather just say DEAL with the heat than have a way to cool your mech down when it matters most? Like when say, your running from a battle and and your firing everything and anything your mech has on it because your trying to slow the guy in pursuit? And now, when your mech is soo trashed that your only hope is to get that last shot off, and oh, look because your out of ammo, all you got is your energy weapon<s> left and 1 of 3 things is about to happen: 1. the next hit from the enemy is death to you. 2. YOUR next shot may kill you <cuz no coolant flush is there...> BUT, it WILL kill the enemy. OR 3. your next shot to slow them down, which you desperately need to make, but, your mechs soo hot, you WILL shut down if you fire, but if you DONT your dead? hmm, i say better to HAVE the ability and not NEED it than NEED it and not have it... sounds like something else....

Should have conserved your ammo better. Lol, I'm just digging at you from the ammo depleted thread.

Orzorn, on 30 April 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

You mean heatsinks taking damage naturally?

I don't think the rules from the TT support that.

I'm not a TT person, but I do enjoy the novels.

Edit: Who ever solved the double post problem is a genius.

Edited by Ravn, 30 April 2012 - 07:42 PM.

[Orzorn]

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 April 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Lets be clear on this, you would rather just say DEAL with the heat than have a way to cool your mech down when it matters most? Like when say, your running from a battle and and your firing everything and anything your mech has on it because your trying to slow the guy in pursuit? And now, when your mech is soo trashed that your only hope is to get that last shot off, and oh, look because your out of ammo, all you got is your energy weapon<s> left and 1 of 3 things is about to happen: 1. the next hit from the enemy is death to you. 2. YOUR next shot may kill you <cuz no coolant flush is there...> BUT, it WILL kill the enemy. OR 3. your next shot to slow them down, which you desperately need to make, but, your mechs soo hot, you WILL shut down if you fire, but if you DONT your dead? hmm, i say better to HAVE the ability and not NEED it than NEED it and not have it... sounds like something else....

You should not have the ability at all. It is part of managing your mech, and always has been. Those designs that overheat on alpha strikes should not be alpha striking.

Did you know that many designs actually would overheat to instant shutdown with an alpha? Those designs are actually made to use their weapons separately for different situations. Mechwarriors who use those mechs should become attuned to its heat curve, not destroy it by having a coolant flush system.

Mechwarrior 3 introduced coolant flush and I never understood why. Energy weapons are ridiculously strong in that game, and with proper design you don't really need the coolant all too often. All it does is make it so you can strip even more heatsinks and stuff even more weapons on your mech to create a one-shotting monster.

Coolant flush just needs to go. It completely craps on what is supposed to be an ever present danger and turns in into a minor annoyance.

[Ramien]

Orzorn, on 30 April 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

No, they don't. Heat should be a big issue, and not something so easily overridden. If you make the decision to fire all your energy weapons at once, you WILL deal with the consequences.

Or design your mech to be very heat friendly in the first place, with a lot of extra heat sink capability taking up space/weight that could be better spent elsewhere. You'll trade alpha strike power for sustainability, but that's a matter of personal preference as much as anything else. (this works in TT, can't say for the games)

Orzorn, on 30 April 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

You mean heatsinks taking damage naturally?

I don't think the rules from the TT support that.

In TT, if your engine isn't large enough to integrate all your heat sinks, any sinks not included in the engine take up critical space and can then be blown off the mech like any other equipment.

[Ravn]

Completely agree. It makes zero engineering sense to flush coolant. If you spit out hot fluid... your mech is still hot! It doesn't magically reduce the temperature of your mech.

Edit: Boil a pot of water. Dump out the pot of water and press pot against face.

Edit 2: Don't do that.

Ramien, on 30 April 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

In TT, if your engine isn't large enough to integrate all your heat sinks, any sinks not included in the engine take up critical space and can then be blown off the mech like any other equipment.

But only when that whole torso/arm fails. These were the one of the first things to be shot off in the novels.

Edited by Ravn, 30 April 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Ravn, on 30 April 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Completely agree. It makes zero engineering sense to flush coolant. If you spit out hot fluid... your mech is still hot! It doesn't magically reduce the temperature of your mech.

The theory is you have a reserve of cool fluid sitting in an auxillary pod, and you dump the hot fluid in lieu of cool fluid.

[Orzorn]

Ramien, on 30 April 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

In TT, if your engine isn't large enough to integrate all your heat sinks, any sinks not included in the engine take up critical space and can then be blown off the mech like any other equipment.

I think he meant heat sinks actually taking damage from excessive heat. I understand the placement rules, of course, but there aren't rules dealing with excessive heat damaging them, at least not in Total Warfare. I do not have tacOPs, but I wouldn't doubt that they would have an advanced rule in there dealing with heat over a certain cap dealing damage to heatsinks and reducing their heat dissipation by some amount. That make sense to me.