351 replies to this topic

[Zylo]

Suicidal *****, on 08 May 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

And, of course, if you were to replace the coolant with even room temp water to cool an overheating motor, that 'cracking' sound you'll hear is differential thermal contraction causing parts to shrink at different rates, killing gaskets by shear, as well as louder cracking noises, which are your head and crankcase cracking. Then you get to watch 'coolant flushing' as you blow lots of greasy smelling white smoke out the exhaust. Trust me on this, I've done it.

I can't imagin it would do a mech much good either, and somebody might have had thermal shock in mind when they described the omni-mechs often failing when using the coolant pod.

If we want to discount all that and just go with "game says it can be done" then we get back to economics. How much will the coolant pod cost, and more importantly, will they be available? In what quantities?

I suspect the reason you describe above is correct, it would cause significant stress on heat exchangers as well as any coolant lines if the coolant temp of the replacement coolant was far below the coolant that was flushed out. It could easily crack these components and the pressure of the coolant system would probably cause coolant lines and/or heat exchangers to burst.

I might actually be ok with a coolant flush system if it also carried a significant risk of cooling system failure that would lead to the destruction of the mech shortly after as all the coolant escaped the destroyed coolant system. I'm sure such a dangerous to use system would upset another member here who seems to really want the coolant flush option. That being said with the coolant pods not being standard equipment the best option would be leaving coolant flush out of the game.

[Suicidal Idiot]

Zylo, on 08 May 2012 - 11:37 PM, said:

I suspect the reason you describe above is correct, it would cause significant stress on heat exchangers as well as any coolant lines if the coolant temp of the replacement coolant was far below the coolant that was flushed out. It could easily crack these components and the pressure of the coolant system would probably cause coolant lines and/or heat exchangers to burst.

I might actually be ok with a coolant flush system if it also carried a significant risk of cooling system failure that would lead to the destruction of the mech shortly after as all the coolant escaped the destroyed coolant system [...] That being said with the coolant pods not being standard equipment the best option would be leaving coolant flush out of the game.

While on the one hand, leaving it in is one more distraction to my opponent, on the other hand, it's also one more game software thing to maintain/break/use up a command control key, slow down development. After considering it all, the best play balancing issue for it's use (which is obviously going to help the energetic more than those who go ballistic) is to leave it out and worry about other technologies.

And the happy part of all this is: It really IS our call. The developers monitor and participate in these forua. If there is an action item right now titled "should we flush the coolant flush?" I'd guess they'd flush it, just to reduce arguments. There's plenty of other super rare tech that folks would appreciate more.

Economically, I notice that there's an IGN news flash item about Ceres Metals, which is production infrastructure. I suspect that might affect availability of Beagle Active Probe technology as well as some sensor tech that syncs with it.

If the tech info was stolen in the raid, it will become more available, as somebody else will start producing it too. If the real result of the raid was infrastructure destruction, then that particular tech will become more rare, and hence more expensive.

The developers certainly know about eBay and are certainly aware of the basic laws of economics. Dirt is cheap, because there's lots of it laying around. Dirt in space for growing plants is expensive, because there's almost none of it around that wasn't specially hauled there. Local surplus and scarcity means prices fluctuate, and there is absolutely no reason that supply and demand can't play a part in the MechLab.

It would be entirely in keeping with the spirit of the game to raise the prices on the tech that is super popular, and lower those prices on the less popular stuff. That way, economics tends to level things out, while giving HUGE advantages to players who learn unconventional weapons. Cause, when AC2's are next to free, some folks are going to have a lot of them.

Things often sell for way below what they cost the distributor to buy, because it's better to take a big loss now, than it is to pay for warehousing and maintenance on a slow mover. When the Soviet Union collapsed, 7.62x39 ammo for AK's was available in thousand round lots for dirt cheap. As well as the AK's that fired them. Heck, at the time, you could buy a MiG-29 for less than a new Ford Mustang. (I know people who did.)

The tabletop game did a pretty fair job of equalizing the weapon values, and letting the market decide pricing will pretty quickly have some very, very fun unexpected results. Just ponder the 'free AC2' scenario again. Especially if a medium laser suddenly costs more than a Jenner. And plants can be destroyed. Or captured.

If there are limits to the backlog of spare parts you can warehouse, that is going to affect the value of those AC2's again. Because they are going to occupy limited shelf space where you won't be able to store a spare medium laser.

Another fun variation: the game was always overboard on who was producing what, and always blathering about the brand. What if we actually get the equivelants of high quality, super accurate STI guns, vs cheap chineese street crap guns? What if Ceres Metals actually does make guns that are more accurate, or less jam prone, or certain brands of ammo hit harder? Or misfire more or less?

The possibilities are endless.

[Suicidal Idiot]

Hey, Rej, a couple of points.

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 April 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Energy weapons travel at light speed, minimal leading needed to hit what your aiming for.

Not necessarily. A PPC is an energy weapon. It's charged particles, and they travel lots slower than C. Think solar flares. Same stuff. Another question, do game mechanics actually calculate ballistic speeds, or also assume instantaneous hits? I don't know, but I'd sure love to find out. Same for bullet drop due to gravity.

I can believe that the Crysis engine allows for parabolic arcs, but will the developers bother? If so, do the bullets vanish at max range? I would be willing to bet lots of C-bills that nobody is factoring in air resistance for bullet velocity decreasing, even if gravity is accounted for.

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 April 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Energy weapons are not affected by friction OR gravity

If you get down to the nitty gritty of friction = physical interaction of intervening medium, then energy weapons are most certainly affected by 'friction'. In any description, they are absolutely affected by atmospheric absorption and diffraction. The reason you can sometimes see lasers, due to smoke, water, dust, or raw ionization of air, is in each case the beam losing energy in the form of photons radiating outward. The farther it goes, the more energy lost to "laser light show" effects, the less energy delivered to the target.

With super high energy lasers that can damage armored vehicles, another problem is vaporizing and smokifying intervening crap in the atmosphere, creating yet more interference and "light show"

If we really want to get realistic, firing lasers through a forest would cut the effectiveness to near zero, as leaves and wood turn to smoke. And put up a smoke screen.

Somebody else said that the range of lasers is infinite in space. This is also untrue, since a perfectly parallel beam would require an infinetly long and narrow lasing area (volume) between the mirrors, and the outlet lens 'gate' would have to have to be utterly flawless with a uniformly 0 index of refraction. In engineer speak, all the materials required are various alloys, compounds and isotopes of "unobtanium".

Rejarial Galatan, on 30 April 2012 - 08:24 PM, said:

Load what YOU want based on WHO YOU ARE, and what YOU want from your fight/experience. Not what Rejarial or Kraktzor or Helmer or any other player wants.

Preach on, Wolf clan brother.

Edited by Suicidal Idiot, 09 May 2012 - 12:42 AM.

[Zylo]

Suicidal *****, on 09 May 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

It would be entirely in keeping with the spirit of the game to raise the prices on the tech that is super popular, and lower those prices on the less popular stuff. That way, economics tends to level things out, while giving HUGE advantages to players who learn unconventional weapons. Cause, when AC2's are next to free, some folks are going to have a lot of them.

I'm not sure if the devs would go as far as having player choices influence pricing of weapons/ammo/mechs but I could see them adjusting prices within a set range based on the territory game. Lose territory with factories and prices for the equipment produced by the captured factories could increase as other factories struggle to make up the lost production capacity.

[Wyzak]

I think a supply and demand economic model is perfect for the marketplace. If a medium laser costs significantly more than 40,000 C-bills, it's reasonable to assume people would fill their hardpoints with whatever is affordable and design the rest of the mech around what weapons systems they can afford. This makes for more variation and teaches people new weapons skills.

[guardian wolf]

Rejarial Galatan, on 08 May 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

who says the coolant being flushed is coming out of the reactor? It could be from a tank in an otherwise unused torso section... and, I cannot help myself on this: it is COOLant, not HOTTERant.... its like saying put DEodorant on makes ya have a WORSE odor..

The initial effects are unpredictable, it could help, it could do nothing, but the long term affects the affects after your coolant flush wears off, are worse heat management, a lot worse, because now instead of specialized coolant, all you sinks are working on air. And later you stated from another source, and that would be the coolant pod, as stated above, experimental tech, so, be careful with it.

Suicidal *****, on 08 May 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Re: Peterson vs Reg on coolant flushing.

I strongly suspect that Reg assumes flushing = 100% replacement of coolant with fresh, cold coolant
and Peterson assumes flushing = losing coolant with no replacement.

In both cases, the specific heat (heat absorption capacity) of the coolant is going to make a huge difference. Both volumetrically as well as latent heat of phase changing and also, does the replacement coolant have some latent phase change action happening as well, such as suspended solidified salts which are totally liquefied in 10 seconds and remain liquid thereafter? Even if it's just pressurized water, a complete changeout of coolant is going to have some significant effect, since advanced tech is almost certainly going to have some non-trivial volume of coolant, and thus a non-trivial thermal mass.

The reason nobody uses coolant replacement, even in racing, is that most piston powered internal combustion engines are most usably effecient where the cooling fluid stays around 190 deg. F. and have systems designed to keep them that way.

And, of course, if you were to replace the coolant with even room temp water to cool an overheating motor, that 'cracking' sound you'll hear is differential thermal contraction causing parts to shrink at different rates, killing gaskets by shear, as well as louder cracking noises, which are your head and crankcase cracking. Then you get to watch 'coolant flushing' as you blow lots of greasy smelling white smoke out the exhaust. Trust me on this, I've done it.

I can't imagin it would do a mech much good either, and somebody might have had thermal shock in mind when they described the omni-mechs often failing when using the coolant pod.

If we want to discount all that and just go with "game says it can be done" then we get back to economics. How much will the coolant pod cost, and more importantly, will they be available? In what quantities?

Thank you for explaining this better than I could.

[Rejarial Galatan]

William Petersen, on 08 May 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

If you think anything I said is indicative of trying to convince you that coolant doesn't cool, then clearly your reading comprehension is below my abilities to explain. For that, I am sorry I fail you. Go ask a university professor why dumping out coolant and not replacing it is a bad, bad, *bad* idea. They're professional Explainers-To-Laymen/Learners.

ok firstly petersen, i never ONCE said dump coolant from the fusion reactor. secondly, you keep claiming that coolant flushes make things or SHOULD make them HOTTER, when coolant is designed and so named because the intended action is to cool. What I keep invisioning is similar to coolant pods, hell, maybe thats what i am thinking of. but what i keep seeing is a secondary supply of coolant purpose placed and ONLY for flooding the heat sinks with. I DO agree dumping from the reactor is bad, which is why, somewhere I made mention of tanks put into place in otherwise unused sections of the mech, like an empty torso section for example. way i see this, its gonna come to blows verbally, if this continues. see it your way, and my fellow warrior, IF they DO add it, use or dont use it. and I will see it my way and how I think it COULD be done, and IF they DO put it in, if I need it, much like something else, ill be glad I have it and not need it than to need and not have. lets leave it at this shall we? amicable parting on the agree to disagree?

[Sassori]

Short Answer:

Dumping Coolant is like emptying the radiator on your car.

Drive without water in your radiator. See what happens.

Hence why dumping coolant is not smart, hot or no, it's still reducing heat from the really hot components.

It'd be like trying to water cool your CPU without any liquid coolant, or not enough, not enough heat gets transferred. Things go bad.

[Rejarial Galatan]

...Dayson not sure if your tryin to bait me or just didnt read what I said.... look man, take a tank or pod or what ever you wanna call it. bolt it into some other wise unused/empty section of mech, and have it flood heatsinks for like 2-3 seconds then run dry.

[William Petersen]

Rejarial Galatan, on 09 May 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

What I keep invisioning is similar to coolant pods, hell, maybe thats what i am thinking of. but what i keep seeing is a secondary supply of coolant purpose placed and ONLY for flooding the heat sinks with.

I've given this to you four times now. How many more before you actually figure out logical inference?

William Petersen, on 04 May 2012 - 12:02 AM, said:

to have a sort of "reserve" (which is never stated as being anything close to standard equipment, otherwise research into 'coolant pods' would neither be necessary, experiment, nor volatile) coolant insulated from the rest of the Mech's heat, and kept at frigid temperatures so that when it is introduced into your cooling system it can immediately absorb more heat from the weapons/engine as it runs through the system.

[Sassori]

Rejarial Galatan, on 09 May 2012 - 06:56 PM, said:

...Dayson not sure if your tryin to bait me or just didnt read what I said.... look man, take a tank or pod or what ever you wanna call it. bolt it into some other wise unused/empty section of mech, and have it flood heatsinks for like 2-3 seconds then run dry.

I'm not trying to bait you. That technology simply does not exist. Davion tried it, it failed pretty spectacularly. The idea of flushing coolant, aka getting rid of what transfers heat... is not a good idea due to real life physics of heat transfer, nor in the game.

I'm not trying to be rude at all man, honestly, just trying to help explain why what you are envisioning simply doesn't exist thematically.

Edited by Christopher Dayson, 09 May 2012 - 07:10 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

<blinks> for civility sake petersen, I say this again in hopes it was just an error that you didnt see it: lets leave it at this shall we? amicable parting on the agree to disagree?

[Rejarial Galatan]

then use coolant trucks for the same effect. THEY do exist, have for nearly half a milennia. http://www.sarna.net...i/Coolant_Truck THIS seems viable, and a way to end this circular debate. I think we can ALL agree, that THIS can be a viable solution that can be used or not used at each players disgression. Yes?

[Sassori]

Coolant trucks on the front lines, that'd make for a juicy target... and not that thematic either. For the most part battles in MechWarrior aren't like traditional battle fronts either. Since we're dealing with a limited number of very powerful units, they tend to be more shifting and ranging, small unit tactics is more appropriate. Anyways, sorry, done. Not much else I can say and some things just don't mix.

[Rejarial Galatan]

PGI has the solution, they will tell us all when the time is right.

[William Petersen]

Rejarial Galatan, on 09 May 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

<blinks> for civility sake petersen, I say this again in hopes it was just an error that you didnt see it: lets leave it at this shall we? amicable parting on the agree to disagree?

I saw it. Along with your veiled threat of verbal harassment which I found particularly amusing given your posts on the suggestions forum.
No rebuttal, so you're trying to get me to agree to a 'draw'? Sorry, I don't conceded when I'm right. Dayson is spot on ::highfive:: and reinforces my point: the tech you're trying to hand-wave and say "but it could be like this" is exactly how coolant pods function, and if it was standard equipment, then it wouldn't be experimental Davion Tech. Q. E. D.

I would, however, argue that it didn't really "fail spectacularly". They were(are? will be?) useful, they just had drawbacks. Not the least of which was incompatibility with OmniMechs which was, for many reasons, simply a stronger Battle Technology.

Rejarial Galatan, on 09 May 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

then use coolant trucks for the same effect. THEY do exist, have for nearly half a milennia. http://www.sarna.net...i/Coolant_Truck THIS seems viable, and a way to end this circular debate. I think we can ALL agree, that THIS can be a viable solution that can be used or not used at each players disgression. Yes?

I addressed this pages ago. You know, in that long post you keep saying I can make as big as I want (but you're still not going to read it)? As before: Sure. But if you add those, then you better add Ammo trucks (both of which will be juicy, juicy [read: explosive] targets for scouts to pick off at leisure). And I'm pretty sure your heat sinks would have cooled you off several times over by the time a coolant truck gets to your overheated, shut down Mech, hooks up, and starts cycling out your warm coolant for cooler coolant. Also, if you think anyone's actually going to not shoot you while you're exchanging coolant you're dreaming. Just because that was battlefield protocol in-universe doesn't at all mean anyone in game is going to be that foolish.

I find it of particular interest they say even clans will respect a unit fooling around with a coolant truck, when Zellbrigen explicitly states that if a pilot overheats and shuts down due to his own incompetence, he's still a legitimate target.

[Rejarial Galatan]

<static>

[Punisher 1]

I always looked at it as situational.

It also has alot to do with what you can fit to your mech, how much cash you have and availibility of weapon and ammo types.

So for example your on a backwater world it might be impossible to get ammo, once you are out thats it. Additionally one a weapon is lost in combat ( destroyed ) you cannot find a replacement.

This only works if if there is a real world market that changes per location and conflict ect..

As far as I remember Missiles and Guns are a bit more of area damage with high explosives and fragmentation and armor pearcing rounds. So if you get a choice of ammunition types then there might an advantage to ballistic weapons.

Until is comes to ammo space, weight and critical hit locations are the concern. Then you become a walking bomb because you never want to run out of ammo on a mission.

Where as Energy weapons are pretty basic you have fast firing like machine guns with lower damage or standard where you have a wait time and maybe with PPC's you get some splash damage. With energy weapons heat build up is always an issue you sacrifice so much space an weight to accomodate a decent amount of LASERS

When engaging the enemy I look to remove their largest weapon first. Secondly burning through the rear armor or legs. Ammo explosions are a nice bonus.

[Volthorne]

Rejarial Galatan, on 09 May 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

then use coolant trucks for the same effect. THEY do exist, have for nearly half a milennia. http://www.sarna.net...i/Coolant_Truck THIS seems viable, and a way to end this circular debate. I think we can ALL agree, that THIS can be a viable solution that can be used or not used at each players disgression. Yes?

By all means, let's add something that would shatter ALL the coolant pipes in your 'mech upon use. Hot surfaces + very cold substance = RAPID SHRINKING. Metal + Rapid shrinking = *SHATTER*. This is how Ripley killed the Alien in Alien 3 (you know, the part where she dumps MOLTEN LEAD all over it and then hits it with ROOM TEMPERATURE WATER).

Rejarial Galatan, on 09 May 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

<static>

Why do you always hide behind jammed comms when you can't win?

[Sassori]

Well as for the failing spectacularly, I seem to recall it being bad juju when they were shot, and that because of the weight and size of the liquid in the pods they had to be externally mounted? I just recall it not being really good technology and when the data core was found the Star League double heatsink was /way/ better in about every way so it was scrapped. Or maybe I'm thinking of something else.

Either way, it's still situational tech, limited use, and not really worth bothering with.