410 replies to this topic

[Joanna Conners]

Jaroth Winson, on 03 December 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

Wow.

You cannot relate. Cool you should have ended right there.

Better pilots my ***. The sourcebooks & novels show TIME & TIME again, that toe to toe, one on one, Clansmen were ALWAYS better. These are FACTS & cannot be denied. No simulators here pal. Live mechs, live weapons. live ammo from day one.



Protecting innocent civilians? Read a book. The IS is full of barbarians. We schedule combat trials AWAY from civilians areas. You guys always slaughtered everything in sight.

Again, read a book. It is a Clan warrior's dream to live to earn a Bloodname & see his/her genes added to the active gene pool. We do not fear death but we do not rush it either. When our time comes we meet it with courage & honor.

Knowing they are outmanned? Clansmen VOLUNTARILY reduce their numbers for a battle.

Yeah you keep your lancemates. I will keep my sibkin & when we meet on the field of battle I will give you a present from the Pentagon Worlds, carefully wrapped in a depleted uranium shell.

Merry Christmas......

Honorable fascist lunatics. That's great.

Edited by Demona, 03 December 2011 - 01:27 PM.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

I think your taking facism too far since it just has negative conotations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[EDMW CSN]

Yes and no.
I would only do it as a bondsmen for RP purposes if there is that kind of mechanic.
They will probably put me in a Hunchback IIC but I will demand a Trial of Grievance and demand to fight any clanner 1 on 1.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Connor Macleod, on 03 December 2011 - 10:22 AM, said:

Then I will look for you on the field next year, and I will send you a ion charged particle blast in return.

Happy Fourth of July

Oh and I have read Battletech books. Quoting one of my favorite MechWarriors, David MaCarthy, formerly of the 1st Kathil Uhlans, then of the Kathil CMM "We always tried to spare civilians the horrors of war.... Even on Huntress." (Yes I'm paraphrasing; I don't currently have the book in front of me) Said to Amanda, a MechWarrior subordinate under his command, after a simulation. Amanda, not yet a true veteran of war, inflicted over a hundred civilian casualties with stray shots. David, on the other hand, inflicted 3 casualties due to stray shots, and was VISIBLY UPSET, even though it was only a simulation. Amanda then went on to pilot her Bushwacker during the first battles of the FedCom Civil War on Kathil, so mindful of the potential collateral damage that she refused to fire to risk innocent casualties. I'm not saying there weren't units shooting up everybody like they were at a turkey shoot, and no I didn't read any of the books containing in detail the events of Operation Bulldog except for this one that had one battle that took up maybe a chapter (The name of the book is Flashpoint BTW) so even though my view may be wrong, I did in fact READ A BOOK as you suggested.

Oh and the assumption that IS are better pilots than the Clans came from the BattleTech Tabletop game, where it was understood that the average piloting skill of Clan was 4 and IS was 5.

Finally, I never stated the Clan Warriors were cowards or incompetent fools. Their views just disagree with me.

P.S. If the Clan MechWarriors didn't rush to seek death, then why do they dread reaching old age? Case and Point, Clan Jade Falcon member Joanna from the book "Freebirth" resenting the fact that she was well into her 40s and did not die with her unit, the Falcon Guards.

When the Successor States came together to "reform the Star League" they only wanted one thing; the Clans to back off. They believed the Clans would keep coming because they viewed the Inner Sphere (and rightly so) as weak. The only way to show the Clans they should be taken seriously was to do what only the Clans had done up to that point; annihilate a Clan. This was not going to be a regular fight. Victor said in the initial briefing, that they needed to crush the Smoke Jaguars. The Clans has turned warfare into a series of neat little trials & battles & that they needed to show them the true horror of war. I am paraphrasing of course because I will have to look for the book to give the actual quote. You are all barbarians. The facts are undeniable.

Joanna resented the fact she had reached her age WITHOUT winning a Bloodname. Knowing that she was an older warrior, she would most likely NOT get sponsored for the Trial of Bloodright & her chances of winning the Grand Melee were VERY slim. At that point she knew without a Bloodname she would not have her genes added to the active gene pool, she would not be allowed to sit in on Clan council meetings & she would not be selected for higher ranks. At that point she just wanted to go out fighting.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 09 December 2011 - 06:32 AM.

[CoffiNail]

Atheos, on 03 December 2011 - 11:49 AM, said:

only issue I ever had with the clans is their refusal to adept to the inner sphere tactics. They did eventually but it always seemed late. I understand the honor and all but if the other side does not honor a code what is the point...

on the real topic though. Yes I would do clan, they always seemed very interesting to me. The whole set up of their systems of life was also unique. Then again I studied culture and history for school so go fig.

regardless all of them have interesting plus and minus settings and if we get the option to play a arc for a group of them I will take the opportunity and enjoy the experience.

200 years of one type of warfare and even when those early Sibko cadets were being trained the population in the homeworlds all thought that the Invading Clans were elaborating on the issue. So you had your veteran units who understood the IS really is not going to uphold much of a level of honor, but anyone new and fresh from the sibkos/homeworlds had to adapt to the removal of clan honor in warfare. This is what took them so long to adapt.

Edited by CoffiNail, 04 December 2011 - 11:22 AM.

[Robert Remington]

I voted no clan. I will say this though, if it boils down to being roflestomped over and over because of clan proliferation, i'll most likely join clans as well. If anything to hopefully show that clans (may) need to be looked at. As a long time Tabletop player the clan op'ness is just retarded.

[Alex Wolfe]

VoodooLou Kerensky, on 03 December 2011 - 06:46 PM, said:

I think your taking facism too far since it just has negative conotations.

Indeed, they seem more akin to USSR-era communists, with their collective property (redistributed as the ruling class sees fit via sanctioned Trials of Possession), strict class system (castes), cult of personality (Kerensky), and bloody purges (annihilations, including "relatives" of the offenders). The only thing that could kind of bring fascism to mind is their rampant, state-approved racism (trueborn/freeborn segregation).

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 04 December 2011 - 01:22 PM.

[MrHumble]

The skill is in the artist....not the brush he uses.

[Jack Gallows]

Jaroth Winson, on 03 December 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

Better pilots my ***. The sourcebooks & novels show TIME & TIME again, that toe to toe, one on one, Clansmen were ALWAYS better. These are FACTS & cannot be denied. No simulators here pal. Live mechs, live weapons. live ammo from day one.

Always? No Clan hate, but you can't back that statement up, no matter what you read or what sourcebook you have. Clans have excellent pilots, but the Inner Sphere has a great deal of them too. The gap shortens considerably once the tech level starts to balance, which you can't deny was a great help (in addition to surprise,) to the Clans initial pushes into the IS. You'd think part of Clan bidding would involve technology level. Can you beat that IS person with the level of tech they use? Maybe you'll bid that to try to undercut another bidder, would that not be a clever bid? You don't really ever see it, the most that could be said would be elementals stripping down for hand to hand fights, but then they aren't exactly stock human...either.

Jaroth Winson, on 03 December 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

Protecting innocent civilians? Read a book. The IS is full of barbarians. We schedule combat trials AWAY from civilians areas. You guys always slaughtered everything in sight.

There's things I'd consider barbaric about the Clans as well, and as we all know not every IS/Clanner is barbaric. They both have the capacity, surely, but it's not universal. Many of those in the IS don't see civilian as acceptable collateral, but you seem fond of the term "always."

[Jaberwocky]

So.... 2 days ago I was reading a thread about elitism/old guard etc. and I realized that I've always been primarily a Mechwarrior fan (and a Battletech noob). I would need to find out where I should fit in, in regards to our little Universe here. I've really enjoyed this whole concept based purely on these awesome giant walking war machines and storylines that were good were all gravy. I spend more time messing around in the mech-lab, setting up lances for particular missions, than I ever do playing the missions. Not knowing much about histories of various factions, but having spent an extensive amount of time on the Sarna site recently, I decided that the only truly fair way to decide which faction I prefer, was to base my decision on the designers/users of the mechs that I have enjoyed functionally and aesthetically. Basically, if I was a mech tech, who would I want to work for (out of love for the machines not factions). I know that sounds a little shallow (so I'm a merc possibly....) but realistically, all of us got our start in this by seeing a giant robot that was doing something awesome, and deciding to see what its all about.

So.... canon guys, if my favorites are the Puma, Shadowcat, Maruader, Behemoth. Does that make me a Clanner Tech... (Smoke Jags or Jade Falcon?) or possibly Wolf's Dragoon Merc?

I eagerly but patiently await your input

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

Jaberwocky, on 04 December 2011 - 07:01 PM, said:

I decided that the only truly fair way to decide which faction I prefer, was to base my decision on the designers/users of the mechs that I have enjoyed functionally and aesthetically.

I would advise you go with the personality and style you like the most. Pretty much everyone prefers ClanTech, that's no surprise. I'm an avowed Steiner fan because I like their propensity for Heavy/Assault 'Mechs. Also the Social General aspect actually appeals to me as I'm currently pursuing an MA in military history. I study 17th century warfare so this dynamic is something I am familiar with and find interesting.

Don't worry about the tech or the 'Mechs. Anybody can salvage or steal. What you can't do is transpose one faction's style on another.

Well technically you can but it really breaks up the continuity of the setting.

[Joanna Conners]

VoodooLou Kerensky, on 03 December 2011 - 06:46 PM, said:

I think your taking facism too far since it just has negative conotations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

I think I'm actually an educated person who understands the concepts I'm speaking about. The Clans scream Third Reich. "Honor" and "Nobility" among feudal knights, Samurai or Battletech's Clans are convenient constructs to justify oppression. We are attracted to the romance of the idea while willingly ignoring the perverted nonsense the so called "honor" allows.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Well you obviously DO NOT. The Third Reich had who at their helm? HITLER the FUHRER! The one who ruled all; whose say was final, much like the Sovereign Lord of each of the Successor States. Their word was absolute. They would never be held accountable by their people for their decisions especially the wrong ones. It is the exact opposite in the Clans, not even the ilKhan is above the law. You could be friends with the Khan of your Clan, you might even have his/her genes running through your veins but could they grant you a special favor & give you a Bloodname to let you sit in on the Clan council? NO! No matter who you were chummy with, you still had to earn your place & fight to keep it. Everything is on merit. Honor & nobility is exactly what the "Great Houses" claimed they believed in. You mentioned samurai, thinking of the Draconis Combine are we? Third Reich my ***.

[Jack Gallows]

Jaroth Winson, on 05 December 2011 - 02:32 AM, said:

The one who ruled all; whose say was final, much like the Sovereign Lord of each of the Successor States. Their word was absolute. They would never be held accountable by their people for their decisions especially the wrong ones.

I'd say assassination and civil war tends to make them accountable. Many a sovereign has been brought low by an assassin due to said sovereign issuing decree's and performing actions that are against (directly or indirectly) either their nation or it's people.

The Fedcom Civil war is an example, Kathrine Steiner-Davion tries to pull a coup and fails, Victor could have taken power over the entire Fedcom, but didn't.

Also, I'd say the leaders of the Free World's League a bit more accountable then the others as well, since he's not royalty as a selected leader, with a lot less direct power then the other successor lords. And the FRR has elected royalty with set term lengths and a constitution, which puts further laws on their leaders that other nobility don't chafe under.

[skumm]

DFDelta, on 03 November 2011 - 02:29 PM, said:

This.
I may not like every house of the IS, and even hate some of them, but I will defend them all from the dirty clanners.

good, I'll come looking for you FIRST

[Joanna Conners]

Jaroth Winson, on 05 December 2011 - 02:32 AM, said:

Well you obviously DO NOT. The Third Reich had who at their helm? HITLER the FUHRER! The one who ruled all; whose say was final, much like the Sovereign Lord of each of the Successor States. Their word was absolute. They would never be held accountable by their people for their decisions especially the wrong ones. It is the exact opposite in the Clans, not even the ilKhan is above the law. You could be friends with the Khan of your Clan, you might even have his/her genes running through your veins but could they grant you a special favor & give you a Bloodname to let you sit in on the Clan council? NO! No matter who you were chummy with, you still had to earn your place & fight to keep it. Everything is on merit. Honor & nobility is exactly what the "Great Houses" claimed they believed in. You mentioned samurai, thinking of the Draconis Combine are we? Third Reich my ***.

I think you're way too worked up about a fictional universe and blinded to the real life social horrors that the Clans would represent if they were real.

If you think eugenics is a good idea, along with slavery, caste systems and the murder of anyone who opposes your viewpoint then the Clans are for you.

It's fun to pretend you're part of the noble warrior caste for a while in a game, but if you're embracing all the real world implications of the Clans then you are a frightening individual.

Nobility and honor are found in the heart and in deeds. They are not found in societies that do lip service to these things while oppressing and exploiting the weak.

Is the Inner Sphere perfect? No. There is plenty of corruption and abuse. I would still rather live in the modern U.K. than in Feudal England.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Quote

Tseng turned to his bondsman. "Very well, Barthelow. Explain the concept of bidding for a Trial."
The bondsman drew a deep breath. Surely he knew that Tseng and the others were trying to break him, attempting to mold him to the ways of the Ghost Bear, but some fight in his warrior's soul probably still yearned for escape. He drew another long breath and spoke as if reciting the words Tseng had drilled into him. "The Clans do not fight mere battles. A Clan warrior engages in Trials. The defender will state what forces he will defend. The attacker then must bid to defeat his foe with the minimum amount of force possible."
"And why is that?" his bondmaster prompted.
"I believe it is to minimize the amount of potential loss."
"Partially correct, but what you believe is not important. What is important is what I believe," Tseng said. "There is more, bondsman. Why not simply engage as your former commanders in the Inner Sphere do, with every bit of manpower and BattleMech hardware available?" He did not conceal his scorn.
The bondsman shook his head, but did not lower his eyes. "I do not know."
"At least this time you did not use contractions," Tseng said. "Star Captain Bekker, perhaps you would be so kind as to inform this surat-dung as to why we do not attack with everything we have."
Angela regarded the bondsman for a moment. "Honor," she said.
The bondsman looked puzzled, but she went on before he could interrupt. "To use every bit of your strength to achieve a goal shows no honor. The blood in our veins as Ghost Bears is red with honor. If I outnumber you four to one and attack and defeat you, what then? Nothing. There is no honor in such a cheap victory. If I bid down and take you with even odds, there is some honor in that. But if I bid the least possible amount of force and beat you with that, then I have achieved the greatest honor. If you learn nothing else, learn that honor is the lifeblood of this Clan."

You are damn right honor is in the heart & in deeds. I would rather live in a society where the best person for a job has that job & not because of corruption. I would rather live in a society where the person who has a job must do it to the best of their ability or risk being replaced not sit on their laurels doing nothing knowing they have the position locked & the rest of the people can suffer.

[Joanna Conners]

A great example where you quote a conversation with a slave among warriors who are allegedly "genetically superior" and part of a rigid caste system where the best person cannot always be picked for the role because of the way society is structured.

You're a romantic and I respect that, but you're blind to the evils of Clan society as a result.

[Jaroth Corbett]

A bondsman is bound by honor, not chains.

[Alex Gant]

Just to try it yes, and a chance to get an omni mech sure