63 replies to this topic

[xXBagheeraXx]

Ok, before anyone says this Ive been on BOTH sides of ac2 builds....even with only 2 ac2's they are extreamly cheesy weapons...the screen knock from only 2 cannons is enough to where enemies cannot return fire at ALL...your average Cataphract now is running around with 4 of these weapons....Earlier today i stood still in front of a fully armed Atlas (in a Dragon 1N) and fired 2 ac2's into his chest (in group fire no less)...he fired over my head, then into the dirt in front of me, turned his back and ran off....im pretty shure thats NOT how those weapons are supposed to perform...Being on the reciving end of these in quad mounts is usually a death sentence if you cant get behind cover, or figure out where the shots are coming from and fire back...at close range i can usually hit them anyway, as knock doesnt actually move your weapons around as they did in previous games. SO if your target is a dummy, he will be sitting still right in front of you begging for a gauss round or 2 is in his face...but at range, or without cover, you are pretty much finished.

My thoughts were that knock should have some calculation depending on the calibre of the cannon/missile you are being hit with....Ac2's should not rock heavies and assaults as much as a large-bore ac20 round...Basically bigger the cannon/missile, the harder the knock...ac2's and 5's should only have light to really moderate knock....the 10's, 20's and gauss rifles should be the weapons that send you reeling...

[theta123]

Sure, make the AC/2 even worser then it is

Thats the whole point of a AC2=Surpressive fire so the enemy cant fire back its gauss spamming rifles

[xXBagheeraXx]

i said Reduce, NOT REMOVE the knock...

[Insidious Johnson]

I am confused as to why ac2s have the most knock but the least power? Shouldn't ac20s have severe knock about and a chance to tumble another mech? It should scale down from there into the nothing that ac2s should be. What we have seems to be the opposite of that.

[Kobura]

Just a note, 4xAC2 are some of the best DPS in the game bar none, not even factoring range.

2x damage 2x a second. 4DPS per gun. The Quad2 builds out-DPS four gauss rifles, albeit requiring much more accuracy over a longer time.

So, ten seconds, Gauss fires twice for 30 with a bit of cooldown left for a third shot, AC2 has fired TWENTY TIMES for FORTY DAMAGE.

The knockabout is pure cake, friends. I'm not complaining about the AC2, only providing a bit of insight into why they're so powerful. Change them? Reduce knockabout significantly, evaluate results, then perhaps change recharge to .75 seconds instead of .5 if they're still kings of the battlefield. Otherwise they're good, personal opinion.

FYI: You've been able to stick two of them on an Atlas' hip for a long, long time now... 2x better-DPS-than-Gauss guns are still very good!

[theta123]

Also keep in mind guys, the AC/2 has the longest range

This means, the highest velocity
This means, VERY HIGH KINETIC IMPACT power

The 'damage" is low, because the projectile is small. But the kinetic energy is very high, wich actually justifies the high knock back

[Fencer]

Concur, the knock on A/C 2, 5 and ultra 5 is just way out of proportion to damage is does.
These should not be rocking heavy mechs.
The biggest point is that it is no fun being on the receiving side. Players hate loss of control of their mechs/characters.
They already have an assigned value. the rock just needs to have a minimun value before it effects a mech.
So if they want to spam 2pt damage hits one at a time, fine but no rock. Fire a quad at once? rock.
Bottom line is that its no fun playing against these not because of how high of DPS they have, but because of the rock.

[megoblocks]

theta123, on 21 November 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Also keep in mind guys, the AC/2 has the longest range

This means, the highest velocity
This means, VERY HIGH KINETIC IMPACT power

The 'damage" is low, because the projectile is small. But the kinetic energy is very high, wich actually justifies the high knock back

Actually, from a pure physics view, the ac2, despite it's high velocity, would still have very little kinetic energy when compared to any other ballistic weapon. It's only doing 2 units of damage per shot, where as other cannons are doing 2.5x-10x more damage and thus, imparting 2.5x-10x more energy into the target. If a round from an ac2 violently shakes the cabin, the ac20 really should have a chance to take a mech off its feet.

[404 File Not Found]

theta123, on 21 November 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Also keep in mind guys, the AC/2 has the longest range

This means, the highest velocity
This means, VERY HIGH KINETIC IMPACT power

The 'damage" is low, because the projectile is small. But the kinetic energy is very high, wich actually justifies the high knock back

technically objects moving for further distance does not imply highest kinetic energy. apply same force to an object of smaller mass and the object will travel further. And since f=ma, a smaller mass at the same acceleration, = less force.

[Strapped McGee]

Kobura, on 21 November 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Just a note, 4xAC2 are some of the best DPS in the game bar none, not even factoring range.

2x damage 2x a second. 4DPS per gun. The Quad2 builds out-DPS four gauss rifles, albeit requiring much more accuracy over a longer time.

So, ten seconds, Gauss fires twice for 30 with a bit of cooldown left for a third shot, AC2 has fired TWENTY TIMES for FORTY DAMAGE.

The knockabout is pure cake, friends. I'm not complaining about the AC2, only providing a bit of insight into why they're so powerful. Change them? Reduce knockabout significantly, evaluate results, then perhaps change recharge to .75 seconds instead of .5 if they're still kings of the battlefield. Otherwise they're good, personal opinion.

FYI: You've been able to stick two of them on an Atlas' hip for a long, long time now... 2x better-DPS-than-Gauss guns are still very good!

agreed... its fine for them to do high dps, but not crowd control too.

[Grym]

I agree the amount of knock is a bit much.

Almost feels like im being trolled. Even with a single AC2 constantly hitting you your vision is severly degraded.

Very satisifying when u kill the ******* doing it though.

[Red squirrel]

The knock of the AC/2 is hillarious and needs an adjustment.
Generally Autocannons should shake you depending on caliber and your mechs weight.
I mean an Atlas hit by an AC2 should not notice too much if anything at all
while a Commando hit by an AC20 should actually be knocked down.

[Grym]

Red squirrel, on 21 November 2012 - 03:13 PM, said:

The knock of the AC/2 is hillarious and needs an adjustment.
Generally Autocannons should shake you depending on caliber and your mechs weight.
I mean an Atlas hit by an AC2 should not notice too much if anything at all
while a Commando hit by an AC20 should actually be knocked down.

I would agree to having a chance to knock down dependant on weight (or mass is a more appropriate term). However, physics would have to be back in for this could happen.

[Ceesa]

Ok, let's actually look at the math. Kinetic energy = 0.5mv^2, so while the velocity of the round is important, the mass is also. If we assume that the velocities are close and that damage is based on the mass of the round (which is reasonable), then the AC/2 should be hitting with around 10 times less force than the AC/20. So if you just look at the physics, the amount of cockpit shake the AC/2s are generating at range is pretty silly.

[Insidious Johnson]

Also remember, dakka dakka dakka with AC2s requires you to be hanging your butt out there in the open for extended periods of time while unnoticed or not called as a primary target. Good luck with both of those.

[kaeh]

The shake from ACs and missiles are terrible, it has to be nerfed a little. Just notice the insane amount of ACs people uses since the patch. It's OK if a single AC20 shot makes you shake a lot, but with the fire rate that AC2 has makes you impossible to target anything if you are under heavy AC fire or a missile rain.

[ArkS]

kaeh, on 21 November 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

The shake from ACs and missiles are terrible, it has to be nerfed a little. Just notice the insane amount of ACs people uses since the patch. It's OK if a single AC20 shot makes you shake a lot, but with the fire rate that AC2 has makes you impossible to target anything if you are under heavy AC fire or a missile rain.

The shake is only graphical, you can still shoot as normal. Its wierd but as soon as you get used to the shaking you can "mentally" aim and play normal.

[xXBagheeraXx]

quad ac2's ARE troll builds...i was nearly in tears laughing on coms when i made a 2 ac2 dragon and watching assault mechs unable to return fire....as they said the dps is fine, the knock is simply too much.


@Arks that trick only really works at close range, in the open your hosed... :/

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 21 November 2012 - 04:05 PM.

[aceofrazgriz]

I'll agree the knock is way too strong for the smaller ACs, but I do have to question so many people not being able to still score hits. Sure, with more the 2 ACs belting ya down its incredibly hard, but I've gone against a few Phracts with duals and have still gotten hits with lasers, arms, and even my ppc at distance with my Hunch. Take a second of focus, the knock/chair shift is the same bounce pattern, time it and you can hit them back and screw them up too.
To clarify, yes I do still agree knock is too powerful for smaller ACs.

[xXBagheeraXx]

aceofrazgriz, on 21 November 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

I'll agree the knock is way too strong for the smaller ACs, but I do have to question so many people not being able to still score hits. Sure, with more the 2 ACs belting ya down its incredibly hard, but I've gone against a few Phracts with duals and have still gotten hits with lasers, arms, and even my ppc at distance with my Hunch. Take a second of focus, the knock/chair shift is the same bounce pattern, time it and you can hit them back and screw them up too.
To clarify, yes I do still agree knock is too powerful for smaller ACs.

With enough distance you can simply sidestep a bit...a lot of the ac2 spammers cant lead for ****. My usual death-sentence is getting charged by one at close range or caught in the open...the close range ones i can hit, but it can be rather frustrating to hit the same section with the constant knocking. The reason why I dislike the knocking effect being as strong as it is it that most people are using them JUST for that knock feature...they know the target cannot return fire...its not for the hgih dps, or "suppressive fire" its a cheese build, Nothing more. Quad ac2 cataphracts are about as cheesy to me as the inferno rocket+artillery strike cheese mechs I used to fight in mechwarrior 4...