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[Nebfer]

I have posted this on some other forums... Though I think it might be useful here though I do not think this is quite the right sub form for this.
Now I do not clam to be 100% correct on this, but I have done more than one debate on B-tech, and much of the info I have used on this comes from the rules and fluff. Now Battletech is a very hard universe to get any idea on what it can do, and at times contradictory. Nor is it a universe that showcases it's technology very much, focusing more on people than technology. As such it dose not have teloporters, nanotech, advanced AIs and the like.

I have updated some areas with this positing with further thoughts noted as such
Note this is a long post
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Turn length
1: A regular B-tech turn is 10 seconds long, but the firing phase only takes place during a fraction of that time, after all the range calculation is based on where the units end up and not where they start from. This also applys to Capital scale's minute long turns.
2: Rule sets such as the old Solaris dueling rules reduced each turn to 2.5 seconds, and allowed a weapon to be fired every turn if the player wanted to (with a resulting monumental heat spike), thus further indicating that B-tech weapons fire takes place in less than a full 10 second turn.

Armor composition
1: B-tech armor is a composite comprising two main layers, the first is a Super hard steel alloy, the second is Cubic boron nitride (CBN) reinforced by diamond mono-filament, a third layer made from honey combed titanium acts as a structural support. (some players have theorized that B-tech also uses boron nano tubes for the boron component (similar to carbon nano tubes), this is possible as their are a wide range of brands for B-tech armor.)
2: Ferro-Fibrous reinforces the steel layer with diamond mono-filament (a real trick)
3: due to the known armor mass on B-tech units and the large surface area mechs have, the armor would be at best about an inch thick, more likely less.

Energy Resistance capability's
1: The Fluff commonly mentions that the armor is routinely melted by a laser or particle cannon hit, with a few references to vaporization.
2: Assuming the armor is a 50 / 50 mix of Steel and CBN with a single point (62.5kg) of armor having roughly 30kg of each, and assuming the armor is melted.
3: The Steel layer would take about 28 megajoules to melt, the CBN layer would take about 170 megajoules for a combined total of just under 200 megajoules to melt one point of armor.
4: If one wanted to vaporize a single point of armor then the energy required would be roughly 450 megajoules or so. Though not all of the armor has to be vaporized or even melted (i.e. falling off) which would reduced the energy required.
5: As such a small laser can range from 100 megajoules to 1.5 gigajoules in power or more, depending on the values you use, but a full melt number would result in a small laser having 600 megajoules. And a Clan Heavy Large Laser would range from 530 Megajoules to 7.2 gigajoules with the numbers to melt the rated amount of armor being 3.2 gigajoules. However I have been told that above a gigajoule you start getting issues with atmospheric ionization... Also note the now canceled Airborne laser (ABL) was rated at about one megajoule (or something like that).

Kinetic Energy Resistance
1: Autocannons are not typically used to get an idea of Ke Resistance due to largely unknown variables (how much mass is the propellant charge, how many rounds in a single shot, etc...), As such Gauss Rifles are preferred here.
2: Gauss Rifles are stated to fire hypersonic rounds (their are some quotes suggesting lower but I have found a lot more quotes supporting the higher speeds, never mind the rules...). Hypersonic is any velocity faster than Mach 5 (to about Mach 10ish) or faster than 1,710m/s (~5,600fps). Though their not likely to be right at the hypersonic line but quite a bit faster than that. Particularly when using the ranges provided with capital scale a Gauss Rifle has a minimum MV of 6km/s (and a range of 360km -in space), though I'm not to fond of using these values, their a bit wacky, though they at the lest suggest that B-tech weapons have a very high MV.
3: Let's assume than a Gauss rifle has a MV of 2,200m/s (~mach 6.5, comfortably in the hypersonic range and a play on the old mach 2.2 quote), as such a regular Gauss Rifle would have a Ke of 300 megajoules or roughly 20 megajoules per damage point. When scaled a heavy Gauss Rifle slug at 250kg (vs 125kg of the "regular Gauss") would have a MV of 2,000m/s and a Ke of some 500 megajoules.
4: 300 Megajoules (Mj) is roughly equivalent to a 16 inch battleships gun (like the ones on the North Carolina and South Dakota class's -which produced ~300 Mj at the muzzle) and 500 Mj is considerably more than the 18.1 inch guns on the Yamato (~440Mj). However the momentum of these projectiles is considerably higher than the Gauss Slugs (roughly by a factor of three).
5: Considering that B-tech armor is less than an inch thick and is perfectly capable of stopping multiple Gauss Impacts B-tech armor is quite impressive in this area (considering that current day tanks would be reduced to scrap when hit by a 16 inch naval shell). As such I find it unlikely that a real life Ke tank round is going to be all that effective on mech armor (also note than most real life tank rounds produce less than 9Mj of Ke).
6: While Autocannons are not typically used in such calculations they do fire hypervelocity shells (IIRC velocity's above 2km/s), though for the most part references to these speeds are uncommon, with the more generic term "high speed streams" being more often used. Also like wise capital scale ranges require very high velocity's to acheave.
7: As such even a weak weapon such a the AC-2 is quite powerful, being some five times more powerful (if not more) than most current tank guns.
8. One issue with these numbers is recoil, the recoil on a 2.2km/s 125kg slug is extremely powerful enough so to likely push a mech back a few meters on firing. For a less powerful number at 1.92km/s velocity a regular Gauss slug will have a Ke of about 230 megajoules. For the record the minimum velocity that a Gauss Slug has been stated is the old yellow jacket fluff being mach 2.2 or 750m/s, another lower end quote is 1,000m/s. These have the advantage of not having much of an issue with recoil, but they are at odds with much of the fluff, even the very first time we see a Gauss Rifle (TRO 2750) it was stated to have a velocity twice that of conventional guns.
9. The autocannon replaced the "Rifle Cannon" (smooth bores existed) when it was introduced in the 2200s suposedly due to the rifle cannon in ability to keep up with the advancing armor tech. They also have lower velocity than ACs (they can not be effectively used in space while ACs can) and inferior Armor penetration ability's, while using more propellent to do so. The only known specs for a Hvy Rifle is a 150mm cannon firing a 68kg shell, that is a big shell when you consider current 155mm rounds are 45kg... Rifle cannons represent the older generation weapons in use before autocannons as such they represent tank guns of "today" and so on.

Weakness
1: B-tech Armor seems to be weaker to burst fire weapons like Machineguns, hence why autocannons where created, as single shot weapons had to resort to firing really big rounds in order to start damaging the armor
2: B-tech Armor also is weaker to high mass and low velocity impacts than to high velocity and low mass impacts, such as melee attacks and falling damage.

Range
1: Total Warfare Mentions that the "relatively low" ranges are due to game play purposes, and not truly indicative of the universe (even then they still like to use them in fluff...).
2: Tactical ops introduces the Line of sight rules which allows many weapons to have ranges out to the units line of sight (which on a flat plain would be roughly out to the horizon or some 15km distant)
3: Tactical ops also introduces "Rifle" cannons, primitive weapons introduced and developed in the centuries before the autocannon was introduced in 2250, and is smiler to weapons we would use today (the "light rifle cannon" even has a smiler weight to current tank guns). One can use these weapons in-game range to get an idea of how much the ranges have been reduced for game play (basically, by roughly a factor of six to 14, depending on which B-tech weapon you use and the what real life range you use (i.e. three to five kilometers is typical for real life tanks)).
4: Strategic ops allows mechs and other units to be used in space, though they can only fire at units in their own hex, giving them a range of 9 to 18km (depending on the POV of where the mech is in the hex).

Infantry Weapons.
Well B-tech weapons are powerful and the armor equally as tough but how dose this apply to infantry weapons?
Their is some evidence for Infantry weapons being quite powerful in their own right. For example the fluff describes the Zeus Heavy Rifle as a 12.7mm weapon firing a 45 gram slug at hypersonic velocity's, thats at lest 65 kilojoules (more than three times the power of a 50 cal BMG round). Other Examples include a Laser pistol that has a yield of 100 kilojoules per shot (or 20g of TNT), Laser Rifles exploding heads, Tsunami Gauss Rifles with 1.5Mj of Ke, the well known Magshot delivering over 500 kilojoules of Ke and so on. Oh and their is some mention of "Nuclear" hand grenades...

And for thoughs who wounder what calibers B-tech autocannons are, here are some pointers
Machine guns 12.7 to 30mm (yes B-tech dose have Machcineguns in the 30mm range, it seems more of a role than anything, I.e. MG = anti-infantry, autocannon = anti-armor)
AC-2s = 20 to 50mm
AC-5s = 40 to 80mm guns, with notable exceptions (their are three guns listed as 105, 110 and 120mm)
AC-10s = 75 to 100mm guns
AC-20s = 100 to 203mm guns (100 and 120mm are common calibers)
I also can provide a list of calibers I have found.

Note battletech autocannons are not rated on their caliber or shear destructive ability's alone their rate of fire also is taken into account (and to an extent ammo consumption), a 120mm that fires ten rounds per burst and uses 200kg of ammo can easily be an AC-20, the same goes for a 203mm AC-20 that only fires two rounds per burst but also uses 200kg of ammo.
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Well here's a few notes on artillery, and just how big are they. Their are few statments on how big B-tech artillery is, so this is largely conjuncture, and baising off known data points and comparing them to real world.

At 30 metric tons the Long tom is not that far off from some historical guns of it's size.
A Long tom uses 200 kilograms per shot, as such a Long tom is easily in the 9 to 10 inch range (228 to 254mm). As 203mm guns fired ~105kg (land based it's 90kgs naval it's ~120kgs) shells, so 203mm guns are a bit to light (baring obsurd amounts of propelant, or a very heavy cartrage case).

The M1 240mm (9.45in) Super Heavy Howitzer of WW2 (and Korea) fame, was a massive 29.35 metric tons and fired 160kg shells.
The German 24cm H39 siege howitzer was 27 metric tons and fired a smiler shell. -Just add ~40kg for propellant and theirs your 200kg shot.

For "Snipers" it's 100kg shot puts it the range of 170mm guns like the 17cm K18, M107 SPH and the 180mm S-23. The weight is not to far off as well at 20 tons (the K18 is 17 tons (interestingly it's travel weight was 23 metric tons), the M107 is a SPH so no real numbers on the gun weight, but the soviet S-23 was 21 metric tons). These guns fired a shell in the 70kg weight range

This leaves the Thumper, at 50kgs per round and 15 metric tons in weight. It's shell weight is close to 130mm but guns of that size are half the weight.

Arrow 4s are well short range tactical missiles. Though I have not found any real good analogs in a smiler weight range.

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Missiles.
Missiles are a bit hard to get a Idea of how powerful they are, so I can only give some basics, in the second book of the warriors of Kerensky series, Victor and crew are in a wolf dragoons meeting hall, when they find a 3kg block of explosives under the table, well they describe the explosives as capable of demolishing the entire level of the building they where in. On page eight of the old house Laio book it mentions nuclear hand grenades (this is also mentioned in Jihad Terra book), though no info if these weapons are still around however. If B-tech can make "hand grenade" sized "nukes", I wonder what they could do with regular explosives (multiple "nuke grenades" where described as destroying three city blocks, in the Laio book).
Also IIRC their are a few times when Elemental's get hit by some LRMs or SRMs and they go flying, dead or not...

An LRM is a 8.33kg "guided" missile, likely optical guided (if LRMs are not guided then why don't they have a -1 to hit like MRMs and Rockets, which attribute the -1 due to the lack of guidance systems), though its a limited guidance package at best in any case (after all LRMs are cheap very cheap, at only 250 C-bills per round (less than 1,300 USD)). At 8.33kg a LRM is 1.6kg heavier than a 105mm RPG-29 round (6.7kg) or 1.2kg heavier than the MILAN 3 missile (7.1kg). SRMs are 10kg, and like LRMs are "guided", at 10kgs their 1.8kgs less than a Javelin Anti-tank missile (which is 11.8kg, thats the missile, the other gear adds more weight). The optical guidance can help explain the ability for them to miss via smoke and terrain, and theirs already IR guided missiles, as well as laser guided (that's semi guided LRMs by the way), theirs even EM homing missiles.

MRMs are 4.166kg in weight which are comparable in weight to LAWs and other "RPGs", and are effectively dumb fire rounds, due to a lack of built in guidance systems. And Clan ATMs are 16.66kg (on the lighter end of the heavier "man" portable ATGMs like the TOW).

In essence a SRM 6 is firing a half a dozen Javelin analogs in a volley, a LRM 20 is firing 20 RPG-29 or MILAN analogs and MRM 40s are firing 40 LAWs at a time.

Interesting note one recent source mentions Streaks are also laser guided

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Some notes on Stealth armors

Battletech as a wide array of Stealth Technology's available.

Battlemech Stealth Armor
Invented in 3063 by the Capellan Confederation in an attempt to mimic the old Starleage Null sig armor. It is in it self a adaptation of Ferro-fibrous Armor, it is a complex array of heat baffles, radar and electromagnetic absorbent materials, though to be truly effective it requires an Active ECM component in the Guardian ECM pod (which is a broad spectrum device, covering a wide range of EM types). In the early 3070s Vehicles & Aircraft started to get their own counter part to mech Stealth armor (in the current RPG it works on IR and EM based sensors, and the GECM works on the EM side of things).

On a side note, Aerospace fighters with Stealth Armor do not get any stealth modifiers if the unit is expending thrust, This is due to the fact that their is no real stealth in space as it's almost impossible to hide the Exhaust from a Fusion torch (and Battletech drives are very very powerful). However in space if the unit is costing you do get the benefits of Stealth armor, even if you are firing large amounts of energy weapons (and all the heat they produce...) which provides an interesting thought but I'll come back to that later. Atmospheric operations get the full benefits of Stealth armor though.

Null Sig Armor (Starleage created in 2630 and went extent in 2790)
This is the Starleage counter part to the "modern" Capellan Stealth armor, it's a bit more advanced as it dose not require a GECM pod to be effective. This armor works with the Chameleon Light Polarization Shield (CLPS).

Chameleon Light Polarization Shield (Starleage created in 2630 and went extent in 2790)
This Armor is a Optical based Stealth System, in fact current B-tech mimetic armors are a bit more advanced than this device. The CLPS is a Series of Computers and cameras tied into a special pigment that allow it to shift colors based on the terrain the mech is found in. While it dose not make the mech truly invisible it dose reduce it's outlines at range.

Note the above two armors seem to have some sort of revival in the post 3080s as a few experimental units use them.

Void Sig Armor (introduced in the 3070s by the Word of Blake)
This is a "upgrade" of sorts to the older Null Sig and Chameleon LPS system, It's basically a full up mech scale Mimetic Armor making the mech almost invisible to optical systems, and with the "required" ECM gear almost invisible to IR and Electromagnetic based sensors as well. However the faster the unit goes the less effective the mimetic armor is. And at speeds above 54kph it hardly works at all.

Battle Armor Stealth Armors
Stealth Armor
Comes in a few configurations of different strengths and ability's (as well as weight and cost). Like Mech Armor It works on IR and EM based suppression techniques. However unlike Mech Scale Stealth armor, Battle Armor stealth also includes some optical based stealthing.

BA Mimetic Armor, this actually comes in two flavors one is Armor based and the other is a add on package not tied to the armor, both work the same, by using a series of cameras, computers and special pigments to change the color of the units "skin" thus blending in with the back ground, but like with it's larger scale counter part(s) the faster the unit goes the less effect it has. The add on package is not quite as good as the Full up Mimetic armor but it dose work with regular BA Stealth Armor (though the full up Mimetic dose have some EM and IR stealth ability's -but not on the same level as the other kinds).

Also Regular Infantry can get IR, EM and Optical based Stealth suits (and in any combination), though these are more often seen in spec ops forces than line infantry.

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Now for that interesting though I mentioned earlier.

B-tech it seems has Decent IR stealthing even on basic units, after all a battlemech standing still at rest has a smiler IR reading as a infantry platoon of some 30 guys, B-tech Stealth armor also seems to ignore the effects of weapons heat, even in space, though with the drive lit up the stealth in space dose not work (considering just how much energy b-tech energy weapons use...)
And the fact that when B-tech dose use IR missile they only work on units that are over heating.
This is noted that a unit that is over heating lights up a mech much better than a mech that is not over heating even though it may have "shed" much more heat points. i.e. A mech that sinks 50 heat for a net of zero heat shows up poorly on IR, but a mech that only sinks 10 of 20 heat lights up like a Christmas tree.

This is the end of part one to be continued in part two.
Edit: Right as I clicked post I noticed that I had misspelled battletech...

Edited by nebfer, 03 November 2011 - 03:03 PM.

[DFDelta]

<3 nebfer

Your tech threads are always awesome.

[Nebfer]

Part two
Again these are from a series of posts I did on another forum. Newer insights that I have done while editing these posts are in italics.

A note on wages
In 1999 1 C-bill was equal to 3 USD (3062 - 3rd ed of the RPG)
in 1991 it was 5 USD per C-bill (3052 -2nd ed RPG)
in 1986 it was 5 USD per C-bill (3025 -1st ed RPG)

If we swap out the 1999 USD with to the values of 2009 then a C-bill is worth 3.86 USD

The New house books actually give out yearly salaries by social class (well biweekly really -assuming 52 weeks per year)
The numbers are dependent on where you live, and range from highest to lowest, for example the Davion high assumes you live on worlds like the golden five, or other such core worlds, the lower is if you are living on the back water worlds of the outback. The chart goes much higher but the rank of Baronet is the highest a regular person can reach, though that would be hard (like a commoner foiling a coup and rescuing the heir apparent from certain death at the same time, could conceivable be granted the title of Baronet)
These numbers are all for 3067 however.

The range is for the poorest worlds to the more well of worlds (I.e. New Avalon vs some back water world in the outback)
House Davion
Minimum wage 4,060 to 2,054 C-bills
Lower 13,634 to 7,575 C-bills
Middle 18,242 to 11,265 C-bills
Upper 73,890 to 34,960 C-bills
Knight 101,966 to 42,728 C-bills
Baronet 215,261 to 106,390 C-bills

House Marik
Minimum 4,071 to 2,757 C-bills
Lower 15,519 to 12,906 C-bills
Middle 20,807 to 18,139 C-bills
Upper 83,486 to 71,877 C-bills
Knight 123,191 to 97,812 C-bills
Marquis 251,076 to 201,737 C-bills

House Stiener
Minimum 3,922 to 3,401 C-bills
Lower 11,905 to 10,504 C-bills
Middle 18,541 to 16,179 C-bills
Upper 72,307 to 63,755 C-bills
Knight 98,181 to 84,147 C-bills
Baronet 196,338 to 168,293 C-bills

House Laio
Minimum 3,803 to 2,608 C-bills
Lower 12,084 to 8,921 C-bills
Middle 17,560 to 12,952 C-bills
Upper 72,515 to 49,722 C-bills
Lo 102,932 to 81,302 C-bills
Mandrinn 419,524 to 264,144 C-bills

Taurian Concordat
Minimum 1,201 to 1,030 C-bills
Lower 3,508 to 3,236 C-bills
Middle 5,356 to 4,940 C-bills
Upper 20,475 to 17,550 C-bills
Baronet 29,627 to 24,596 C-bills

Magistracy of Canopus
Minimum 1,147 to 983 C-bills
Lower 3,375 to 3,112 C-bills
Middle 5,222 to 4,817 C-bills
Upper 20,694 to 17,737 C-bills
Baronet 29,214 to 24,253 C-bills

Outworlds Alliance
Minimum 710 to 608 C-bills
Lower 2,062 to 1,902 C-bills
Middle 3,214 to 2,964 C-bills
Upper 12,613 to 10,811 C-bills

Marian Hegemony
Minimum 574 to 492 C-bills
Lower 1,687 to 1,556 C-bills
Middle 2,625 to 2,421 C-bills
Upper 10,347 to 8,869 C-bills
Patrician 29,214 to 24,253 C-bill

For comparison (this is not 100% accurate but should give you an idea)
USA
Minimum wage 15,000 (5,000 C-bills)
Lower 25,000 (8,333)
Middle 50,000 (16,666)
Upper middle 100,000 (33,333)
Upper class 500,000 (166,666)

Also note the House Kurita hand book is not out yet

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A revisit on Ranges
I mentioned this a bit earlier on but here's a little more on that.

B-tech ranges are hard to figure out, the rules are canon making the ranges canon. However they are very short range and do not make much sense, particularly when one considers the velocity these weapons are doing, and some other things (including a few rules that hit at other ranges), to say little about real world stuff... Now battletech is largely intended to be up close in personnel, after all that's more exciting than sniper tech with realistic ranges. However...

Now Total Warfare says this about B-tech ranges

Quote

Quote:[indent]Weapons ranges provide another example. Players will quickly realize that the longest-range standard weapon in the game can only hit targets out to thirty hexes (900m) from the attacker. Real-world primary main battle tank weapons have an operational targeting ranges in excess of 4,000 meters. Because Battletech map sheets are only seventeen hexes long, requiring more than seven map sheets laid end to end, for a playing space greater than 12 feet in length. Not many people have that type of table space, nor would it provide players with any tactical maneuvering room. Anywhere a player might move a unit on the map, an attacker could hit that unit.
Finally, the abstractions of real world factors such as firing distances can enhance of the game universe. Battletech has always been about "in your face" combat which works best with closer ranges...[/indent]

Clearly the ranges are an abstraction of reality, and reduced for game play purposes.

That said their are rules and some fluff that indicate B-tech weapons have a longer range than it seems.

Rules that indicate that the ranges are longer than what they seem
AA Shooting: Per the rules any weapon with a range of 16 can reach an altitude of 8 when dealing with aircraft, this is between 1,000 and 2,000 meters. This means that weapons like the PPC can hit things that is 2,000 meters away, almost 4 times it's supposed ground range of 540m. Another related rule is with elevations, Battletech dose not factor the height a unit may be at for ground units. An elevation is only 6m tall (this is where one gets the fact that mechs are roughly 12m tall from as a mech can hide behind a elevation two hill -i.e. a 12m tall hill), thus a unit at elevation zero can attack a unit two hexes away with machineguns even though the target is standing on a Elevation 100 hex... That's over 600m by the way.
Extreme range: Found in Tactical ops this rule allows units to hit targets out past "long" range, it is effectively twice it's medium range scale (a medium laser has a max medium range of six hexes (180m), thus it's max Extreme range is 12 hexes -360m).
Line of sight range: This a further expansion of weapons range, and picks up where Extreme range ends. It's has no defined range limit, effectively saying if you can see it you can try to shot it, no mater how big the playing area is. Meaning anything a unit can see can be shot at, now naturally the limit here is at the horizon which would be the limit of a units line of sight, and for a mech thats some 12km away (if facing another mech it's some 24km away...). This allows for some reasonably impressive ranges. Though not all weapons can use this range scale (energy requires a range of at lest seven hexes, and ballistic weapons require at lest 13 hexes to use LOS rules).
Ground units in space rules Ground units in space suck, but they can be used here, but their only allowed to target units in their own hex. This results in a "effective" range of between 9 and 18 kilometers (depending on where you view the firing unit is in that hex, at the center? Or is it at an edge firing to the other side...).

Fighter and Capital scale rules.
A Dropship or other Aerospace unit on the ground have a range no different than a ground vehicle, but once it lifts off thy quickly gain a lot longer range, fighter scale uses 500 meter long hexes (and the same 10 second turns as on the ground) this results in many weapon to have decent ranges, up to 13-22 kilometers. Capital scale has truly impressive ranges at lest for regular weapons the max range for regular weapons in capital scale is 25 hexes (it uses a some what different range system where all weapons have a standard range bracket) thats 450 kilometers with each hex being 18km in size. Though most weapons do not have that range, the ranges are split in to groups, some reaching out to short range (108km -AC-20s, small lasers, ect) medium range (216km, large lasers, PPCs), long range (360km, Gauss rifles, LRMs) and Extreme range (450km, Clan ER large lasers, and IS light Gauss rifles). Further more their is little difference between a Large Laser on a Fighter and one on a mech, in fact some have the same brand names.

Infantry Weapons
In the RPG, infantry weapons have ranges listed, when not coordinating their fire on armored targets, a infantry weapon has a considerably longer range. For instance a Mauser IIC laser rifle has a effective range of 1,400 meters, and Infantry LRMs with a 2.1km range. This is considerably longer than their vehicle scale counter parts. It is highly odd for infantry weapons to out range the weapons on a tank.

An indirect method of figuring out ranges
In Tactical operations a weapon called the Rifle cannon (fluffed as having smothbore versions) is fluffed as being not to dissimilar from weapons that we are currently using. These weapons where developed for some 300 years before the advent of the Autocannon in 2250 (which is why it's not a very smart idea to make the Heavy the equivalent to a 120mm gun). If these weapons are smiler to today's weapons and as they have a range smiler to B-tech weapons then one could use them to get an idea of how much the ranges have been reduced for game play. The Light Rifle has a range of 12 hexes, the Heavy 18 hexes, with real life targeting ranges between 3,000 and 5,000 meters this results in a factor of 5.5 and 14 times.

And their are a few references in the novels, but most of the time they just use the ranges used in game, or smiler to them.

In short, Fighter scale, line of sight and ground units in space rules, all seem to indicate a effective range of 9 to 18km for B-tech ground units, which would indicate a ~16x decrees in range.

Their is a few other options however if one wants to use them.
The AA ranges is roughly 4.166 times longer than their ground range, applying this a large laser with Extreme range rules would have a range of roughly 2,500 meters, an AC-20 1,500m, a Gauss Rifle 3,500m and so on.

Using the Rifle cannon method, one can get a wide range of values between 5.5 and 14 times (close to the fighter, LOS, space numbers) but lets use a 10x factor (about in the middle of two values) this is a simple one, just simply add a zero to all the ranges used in game. As such a AC-20 (with Extreme range rules) would have a range of 3,600m, a Large laser 6,000m and the Gauss Rifle 8,400m.

Then theirs capital scale, and it's ranges...
The old battletechnology magazine issue # 3 (1988) also addressed the issue of range (though the B-tech mag is no longer considered canonical). It mentions 1. B-tech is a simulation of 31st century combat, 2. even though tech has degraded it's still above 21st century tech, 3. units rarely attempted to engage targets that moved as fast, as armored and as maneuverable as battlemechs. 4. The ranges listed as as such, all weapons except MGs and flamers have a 5x increase in range, this is their "extreme range" (a small lasers extreme range would be 450m), MGs have a 10x range hike, flamers do not have a range hike at all. Further more a maximum range was as follows Energy based weapons are out to the horizon, ballistic and missile based weapons have a range thats 1.5x their extreme MGs are 2x. For attacking targets at this distance damage is reduced.

Also a recent blog on the B-tech forums mention that in interstellar ops (the last of the core B-tech rules to be done) mentions their looking at a way to do ranges at the battle scale games, the scale of the hexes are 500 to 250km.

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Todays topic is largely on Aerospace but first here's a note of ground speed.

Ground units speed.
Each movement point on the ground is equal to 10.8kph (6.71mph).
Typically a mech/unit is noted with a Walking speed and a "Running" speed, if it has TSM or MASC it would be noted in as well, however this is not the over all top speed of a mech or ground vehicle. Ground based vehicles (units other than mechs, VTOLs, WIGEs and infantry, but includes Tracked, Wheeled and hovercraft) get a +1 to their movement speed if they due their entire turn on a paved hex, basically a road speed if you will. As such a 3/5 tracked tank if it used this ability would be able to move 3/6 for that turn (this is added on top of MASC/TSM or other modifiers). However this is stil not their top speed. Even MASC or TSM is not the top speed of a ground unit. All units have a "Sprinting/Overdrive" speed this is effectively the same as MASC/TSM (2x walking/cruising speed) and infact can be used with MASC or TSM at the same time for a 2.5x "walking" modifier. Yet their is still one more item that improves speed. This is a supercharger, in the entry for it in Tactical ops (it's also in older manuals like Max tech) fluff's it as nothing more than an engine override (though I wonder why it has to be so heavy for a simple device or lack ther of... Though the device dose have to work with a wide array of engines with different capability's.) This device also works Stacks with TSM/MASC and Sprinting rules, as such you can get a 3x walking modifier. (a walk of 5 with all three options active will result in a top speed of 15 hexes per turn). However their are down sides, if a unit sprints it can not make any attacks that turn and is easier to hit as well (pilot concentrating on moving not attacking or evading).

In short even a 3/5 100ton Tracked tank can reach a top speed of 75.6kph on a road and sprinting (compared to an M1 Abrams 67kph (42mph) road speed, at lest while governed...), At the same time even a 95 ton Clan Executioner Omnimech can reach a top speed of 108kph with it's MASC engaged and sprinting. And a Locust 6M the fastest cannon mech moving 14/21(28) with it's MASC engaged, with sprinting it can movie a whopping 35 hexes (1,050m) in 10 seconds for a speed of 378kph! A battlemech is quite mobile indeed.

And now to some Aerospace matters, just what can these guys do?

Each Thrust point is equal to .5Gs (4.9m/s) of acceleration As such a 10/15 fighter can accelerate at up to 7.5Gs, Now Battletech dose not have anti-gravity and it's related gear. So B-tech uses G-suits to stem the crushing G-forces and keep the pilot(s) from blacking out, and with front to back forces, IS suits can keep a pilot going for a few minutes at 10.5Gs (or 11.5Gs for Clan) Though their head to toe ability is interesting. According to the rules a B-tech fighter (with the low altitude rules, but the high altitude rules the result is smiler) can complete a 360 degree turn in roughly 3,000 meters, even at speeds above 2,160kph (over mach 1.7), Now in order to do this the aircraft would have to bank almost 90 degrees but this results in G forces of 20 to 30Gs! Gee thats quite the turn, Real life fighters have difficulty doing more than 9G turns with out the pilot blacking out. Yet battletech it seems has no issue with this kind of performance. Though I would like to know how this factors in with the known limitations of the airframes when doing high G powered turns (if you use "overthrust" and turn you may damage the airframe, though the fighter is already doing turns that exceed the thrust rating issue...)

To better get an understanding what B-tech fighters can do here's some non cannon specs, now what I mean by not cannon is that I made this chart The guys make B-tech did not make this, but all the info displayed in this chart comes from or is derived from cannon sources.

Name: PGD-Y3 Poignard
Date in service: 3083
Operator: Marik-Stewart Commonwealth, Republic of the sphere
Empty Weight: 30 tons
Mass: 35 tons
Max Take off weight: 42 tons
Power plant: 245 XL Fusion rated at 2402.62kN
Acceleration: 7Gs (9/14)
Climb Rate: 1,200m/s
Service Celing: Unlimited
Max Low altitude speed (0-17km): 3,240kph -Mach 3.06
Max High altitude speed (+90km): 16,200kph -Mach 16.7
Fuel load: 4 tons + 3.5 tons external
Max Ferry Range: 11,520km (21,600km with droptanks)
Max Interplanetary/Space range: 1,587,600 km
Max Endurance: 35 to 320 min (75 to 600 min with droptanks)
Armor mass: 10 tons Heavy Ferro-Fiborus
External ordnance: 7 tons
Radar Range: 10,000km (in space)
Optical Tracking: 2,500km (in space)
Weapons: 1x Imperator Napoleon Light AC/5 w/1t ammo, 1x Martell Small Pulse Laser, 4x Magna Mk VI ER Medium Lasers


I got the idea from looking at the aircraft pages at Wikipedia and wondering if I could do the same with battletech units, well it turns out you can, it's surprising as to the amount of info one can get by looking at the unit's stats, and the rules.

This is a newer aircraft both in universe and real life as it just came out a few weeks ago in TRO 3085. It has a operating weight of 35 tons, with an empty weight (no fuel or ammo) of just 30 tons, It can carry 7 tons in external payloads, it can accelerate at 7Gs taken from the units movement capability's, as it has a thrust of 9/14, the power in newtons comes from the weight of the aircraft and it's acceleration rate, the climb rate comes from the fact that it takes two thrust points to change altitudes, and in high altitude thats 18km, each and the fact a turn is 60 seconds at that level. It's Service Celing is unlimited due to the fact that it can go into space (in fact it's a space plane first atmospheric fighter second). The low altitude speed is taken from the fact that at low altitude a hex is 500m across and a turn is 10 seconds, and that a aircraft can move as fast as twice it's safe thrust (in this case it can move a maximum 18 hexes a turn or 9km in 10 seconds, the MACH number is for 20,000m). The high altitude numbers have limits at various altitudes and is over all restricted to a max movement of 15 hexes per turn, or it's 2x safe thrust value (which ever comes first). Here a hex is 18km in size and a turn 60 seconds, resulting in a minimum movement of 300m/s (1,080kph). An interesting quirk, the high altitude rules for flying near the ground restrict the fighter to a movement of two hexes per turn (2,060kph) but as we can see with the low altitude rules it's capable of 50% more than that (note in space it self their is no speed restrictions). Though in a dark age novel a group of Clan ASF fly a low altitude at hypersonic speeds (low enough to brake windows, and I saw the Mythbuster episode on that subject...).
The Fuel load is stated in record sheets, the external is the max fuel you can put in external fuel pods (this aircraft can carry 7 fuel tanks that hold 500kg of fuel each, or 7x 1,000kg bombs...). The Ferry Range is based on it's economical fuel use rate/speed (in this case spending 1 fuel point per turn which results in a movement of two hexes, for a flight time of 320 turns -or minutes in this case and a velocity of 2,160kph, or how far can you go in 5.33 hours at a speed of 2,160kph?). The Interplanetary/Space range is how far it can go on a single accell/decell burn with max fuel and fuel tanks and dose not factor in costing (though it should be notes a more proper notation should be Delta V but i'm not to good at working with that, but needless to say all ASF can reach the moon in less than 6 hours). Armor mass is stated in the units TRO, paylod is from the rules, Radar and Optical tracking ranges is from Strategic ops (the numbers are for tracking, targiting is 1/10th the numbers listed). Weapons is also listed in the units own TRO entry.


A note on their Helmets
Fighter pilots in general use Helmet mounted HUDs (well in battletech), basically take the HUD on a Aircraft and put that display on your helmet, so where ever you look you will have your primary flight info, and info on your friends (like their damage and fuel remaining) and even status of your opponents (like what kind of damage he's taken). Now the old Starleage used Holographic Virtual reality displays, basically you put the helmet on, and you where flying with out a fighter, or at lest thats what it felt like (in short if your flying 100m off the ground and you looked down you would not see the cockpit floor but the terrain of the ground 100m below you.) At lest some of the Clans have this type of helmet display, and the Free Worlds league also have this as well. Conventional fighters also use the full helmet mounted HUD like most ASF due. Now the idea is not new, aspects of it have been in use for years. However the first fighter that I know of to use a full up helmet HUD is the yet to enter (full) production F-35 Lightning II. Battlemechs for the most part use the older fixed style HUD though they may have elements of the helmet huds. Holographic gun sights are a common mention on battlemech displays

Also for more fighter performance specs you can go to this link
http://www.mechlivin...pic,5632.0.html
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On the Missile front When comparing them, I forgot the Thunderbolt missile, though as each missile differs in size depending on the damage value (T-bolt 5 is 83kg, T-bolt 10 = 166kg, T-bolt 15 = 250kg and the T-bolt 20 is 333kg) The 15 and 20 are roughly comparable to the AIM-65 Maverick (which is 210-300kg, depending on the model), though the lighter ones have no real counter parts (a likely choice for the T-bolt 5 being the Hellfire, however it's only 50kg vs 83kg for the T-bolt -or the T-bolt is 60% heavier (compared to the T-bolt 20s being only 10% heavier than the heaviest Maverick)). I remembered this as I was looking at the (new) TRO 3085 entry on the DCMS new missile mech the Orochi (an "upgraded" Longbow mech) which had a pair of Thunderbolt 20 launchers.

Some more thoughts.

What my last post means is this, if a F-22 Raptor gets into a fight with a PGD-Y3 Poignard, the Raptor is toast. The Poignard can fly as high as it wants, the Raptor tops out at about 20,000m, The Raptor can climb at a rate of around 300m/s the Poignard has 4 times that. In close the Raptor can accelerate at 1.2Gs, the Poignard can do 7Gs, speed wise the Raptor can reach a speed of around 2,500kph, The Poignard can at low altitude do 3,240kph (and can climb to higher altitudes and go much faster). With a pair of droptanks a Raptor has a range of about 3,000km, the Poignard on the other had with droptanks has a range of over 21,000km (as such the Poignard can wait it out if need be), in a turn a Raptor can pull 9G turns, the Poignard can do 25+ and the Poignard has 10 tons of armor the Raptor has none. Oh did I mention that all ASF have VTOL capability?

The Raptor dose have Stealth going for it, though it's a passive stealth, and is optimized for targets below it not above it. Then it may have to contend with B-tech sensors. Also Real life missiles may have more range but their mostly configured as Blast fragmentation and largely useless on armor. Heaven help it if it runs into House Davions Drake Stealth Medium Strike Fighter.

B-tech sensors are an unknown here, we know what the can do in space, but their atmospheric capability is unknown, but we do know that an ASF can produce a lot of energy from it's engines as such it's possible that B-tech radars can just overpower the passive stealth on the raptor, or it may work on a different frequency that is less affected by the raptors stealth. Or it may be invisible to a B-tech ASFs Radar.
-------------------
-------------------
A topic on what constitutes an average world in B-tech

This is what I got from reading the universe section in the new RPG. This is describing how the "Universal Socio-Industrial Level Reference Table" works and describes the values used, Basically the "USILR" describes the development of a world. (see the new house books, the new RPG and most books that have planetary info listed, starting with the Fed com civil war book). It brake down a worlds development into five categories and each of these into five levels, rated with a letter, With the Letter A being the highest and F the lowest.
The catagorys being, Technology Development, Industrial Development, Industrial Output, Raw Material Dependence and Agricultural Dependence.

Technology
Tech A Worlds (like the Fed Suns Golden Five, house capitals and other Core worlds)
- Life expectancy is 100 to 120 years, often with retirement at 90 or 100 years
- Wide spreed computer use and access to data networks
- an endless sea of electronic media
- High degrees of literacy (and computer usability)
- wide spreed use of advanced communications
- Advanced Fuel cell and battery powered cars, with autopilots, fusion powered cars are common.
- effective mass transit, large numbers of supersonic aircraft
- Wide spread fusion power and renewable energy sources
- Largely pollution free environment (unless the local government dose not care...)

Note on Terra life expectancy is 150 years with many people starting families at 70+
Also note their is at lest one 100 yottabyte hard drive on Terra (part of the SDS system)

Tech B & C worlds (which make up a good chunk of a houses worlds)
- Life expectancy's of 90 to 100 years, though partly due to enhancements made during the starleage... (humans are just more healthier than they where before.)
- wide spread computer use but are less capable and larger than Tech As.
- Tech is over all less capable than Tech A
- Fusion powered cars are uncommon, with fuel cell and ICE being common (limited production capability's of vehicle grade fusion engines is one thing)
- Cost of living is higher
- Medical tech is less advanced and more limited but still good for the most part
- in some houses a lack of trained specialists exist at this level
- Communications are more limited, internet service is mostly fixed (lack of wireless internet), communications is mostly by phones, Tri-vid seems to be less common. Most of the Wireless networks is by cellphones. And thousands of interactive vid channels instead of an endless sea...

Worlds of Tech level D have felt the devastation of the Succession wars the hardest.
- Life expectancy is in the 80s, again partly due to the enhancements made during the Starleage (Note: Real life it's ~68 years average.)
- Lack of microelectronics industry's
- may have crude fusion plants
- Medical is lacking, with a severe shortage of trained medical personnel (other fields also have this issue)
- Tri vid TVs and phones are rare often one per hamlet though land lines are common.
- Computers and other microelectronics are primitive and sluggish (compared to Tech B & C) and incompatible with more advanced gear.
- Road and air transport is primitive, animal transport is common (I suppose that's true even today...)
- it's not a lack of technology insomuch as continued effects of destroyed tech (Wars) that's part of the issue here (as well as a lack of knowledge), though 20th and 21st century Terra made a fine living at this level... and the Terran alliance started an empire with it.

Tech F worlds, are few and far between
- Most are worlds settled by anti-tech populations, or have truly collapsed.
- 19th century is a good example of the available techs
- limited communications capabilities, as well as transportation
- radios and microwave ovens are treated with respect and sometimes worshiped (WoB recruited from these worlds)...
- Though some higher learning's are available and give these populations a leg up from real 19th century citizens (such as engineering and human physiology).

--------------------------------------------------

Heavy industry worlds (industry tech level A)
-vast availability to civilian manufacturing
-large number of shopping malls, online shopping...
-extensive transportation networks
-well built homes, apartment blocks and or arcologies
-environmental issues are not a major factor...

Industrial levels B & C
the typical worlds
-less capability in industry, some difficulty in launching large projects.
-less built up transportation services, mass transit being the norm (rather than personnel vehicles).
-smaller housing, less sophisticated

underdeveloped worlds Tech D
-large rifts in technological and industrial availability -smiler to 20th century Terra, a small population lives comfortably where as the majority dose not.
-spotty maintenance on infrastructure, in some cases crumbling in disrepair. crime is rampant, luxury goods are mostly imports and rare.
-food and water production is more labor intensive.

Level F
-world has basically fallen into disrepair "bombed back into the stone age" Labor is mostly manual or animal based.

Resources
Levels C, D & F, rarely import much (by weight) except rare materials (tungsten, platinum, iridium and such) and are typically used in amounts small enough that the limited imports are useful. For the most part these worlds spend a lot of resources and effort to mine these items from less ideal sources (asteroid mining, ores with low concentrations & deep and vast underground mines).

-----------
Food & Water
Most worlds can feed and provide water to their inhabited with out significant imports, how much effort this requires depends on the "level".

Garden Worlds (Levels A &
Food and water production is easy and widely abundant, enough so that it can export some to other worlds. Agricultural industry is highly advanced and employs a relatively small amount of the population (i.e. less than .5%).

Average worlds (Levels C & D)
often have something that limits food or water production, be it tainted water (natural or man made), strange seasons, tainted soil (again natural or man made) and a host of other environmental issues.
These worlds put a larger portion of the population to work on agricultural needs than "Garden worlds" of the same technological sophistication. Food is often grown in sealed green houses isolated from the tainted water, soil or environmental conditions that would limit farm land to small areas. Skyscraper farms are also seen but are more expensive to build and operate.

As the level goes down food types become more limited as well, meat becomes more sparse and often limited to once a week or holidays, on worlds with tech level D menus are even more limited (to items like Rice, soya, algae and mycoprotein (Fungi)) and the only meats found are "vat" produced or "factory farms" and even then it's uncommon. luxury foods are often the only imports to these worlds. Again most worlds do not rely on imports to feed their populations (though it may import some to help make up for shortfalls or to provide some luxury foods).

Clean water is limited (though water it self may be common) With large amounts of purification systems required. Water conservation and recycling are also common. Fountains are often seen as status symbols and (Private) swimming pools are rare.

Suboptimal worlds (Level F and the extreme end of D)
These worlds are rare, and often require vast amount of resources to feed it's population, they make extensive use of hydroponics and smiler systems, even from orbiting satellites. But often little (by mass) is imported.


----------------------------
----------------------------
B-tech Electronics

I would have to admit i'm not very knowledgeable on this aspect, but here's a few things I have learned.

Memory capacity
Hand book house Steiner (the 3025 book)

Mentions that a company called Dobless Information Services (specializing in data storage) has (as of 3025) data centers on 150 worlds (it's the defacto data storage center of the Lyran commonwealth) and each of it's computers had the capacity of over 100 billion books. Well looking up how much hard drive space it would take to store 100 billion books. I come up with the following

1 Petabyte: Over one billion books.
http://graphicsmagic...ataprefixes.htm
-----------------------
2 Petabytes: All U. S. academic research libraries
http://www.jamesshug...ek1/how_big.htm
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1 Petabyte: could hold approximately 20 million 4-door filing cabinets full of text. It could hold 500 billion pages of standard printed text.
http://www.whatsabyte.com/

So it would seem that the Lyrans have a good number of computers that have the capacity of over 100 Petabytes.
I know you can get petabyte sized storage capacity's with today's tech (the size of a good sized file cabinet IIRC), but I do not know of any ordinary computers that have that kind of capacity (out side of some supercomputers).

Terabytes are also not uncommon, when Vandervahn Chistu was reviewing Clan wolf movements in Bred for War he had terrabytes of info, also David Lear at one point gave Devlin Stone several Terabytes of AFFS data meant for a Training battalion in 3028 (see Strategic ops for this). HPGs also send Terabyte sized packets (War of 3039 source book).
----------------
For portable data storage B-tech uses a data chip that is very smiler to what we would call a thumb drive.
The exact capacity's is unknown but it's likely very's from manufacture to manufacture but here's a few noted samples
The RPG says that a holovid chip can store 2 hours of hovid video (holovid = holographic media =3d film)
In Assumption of Risk they mention that a 5 min holovid can be 2 gigabytes in size. Thats about 25 gigabytes per hour. So the RPGs Holovid Chip has a capacity of about 50 Gigabytes (not to bad for a 10g, 2 C-bill device (~10 USD)).

In Tactics of Duty, Grayson brought with him several data chips filled with hundreds of gigabytes of operational data...
This can range from 10 or 20 gigabytes to well over 200 gigabytes per chip...

And for the real kicker, in Jihad hot spots Terra We have this little line...

Quote

MacKezy was one of two on the Precentor Martial’s
staff assigned to catalogue and disseminate the information
held within the DNRP’s hundred-yottabyte (YB) storage centers.

A Yottabyte is a billion Terrabytes, and the line suggests that their was more than one of these centers? Also further down it mentions that they had more than one of these facility's...
Now the Facility mentioned here is the main hub for the SDS network for Terra

The Processor was said to be a 250kg beast. And you have to wonder just how good the computer power has to be in order to use yottabyte levels of data....

Another thing on B-tech computers, B-tech can almost recreate Star Treks Holodecks.
High def holographic media: Check
Smell: Check
Tactile feed back: Check

Quote

HB House Steiner Appliances most familiar to the average Lyran range from micro-or laser-wave ovens and sonic dish cleansers and showers, to
personal computers and vid-phones, to hyper-filtered water purifiers
and power cell rechargers for all manner of electric appliances. More
well-to-do families may claim micro-fusion generators, geo-thermal
climate control systems, smart-safe home security networks or even
immersive-environment home entertainment systems that can
approximate tactile and taste sensations and mix them with highresolution
holography and sound projection for a virtual-reality
experience of unparalleled accuracy.

Quote

HB House Marik Most video transmissions in the Free Worlds are vidtape, a holographic format whose origins date back centuries. Whether played on small portable units or through stadium-sized broadcast suites, the core principles are the same, though quality varies considerably. Presentation can
be simple text (commonly known as a vidnovel) or offer an immersion experience in which the viewer sits inside the events and can shift perspective
as he or she sees fit. The ultimate expression of vidtape is the RHE (Recreational Hologram Environment), which allows the viewer to be an
active participant in the recording through interactive props and sophisticated computer modeling. RHEs of sports events and active pursuits
like climbing and dancing are popular across the League; recordings of military engagements and extreme sports make up another substantial
element of the market.

Quote

Test of Vengence CH9 Of course, that would not happen because this was a simulation. Yet still the signals and images registering in Jake's HUD were the same as if he were actually riding the hull of Lita's Mad Dog as it raced across the countryside at eighty-five kilometers per hour. In reality, the two warriors were on entirely different decks of the Ursa Major, separated by more than a hundred meters, but connected to the same computer-controlled simulation.


No matter how many times he ran these simulators— twice or three times daily since joining the 288th—the virtual reality they created remained almost entirely convincing, thanks to advanced Clan holography and biofeedback. Jake could hear the wind howling outside his helmet, and the Mad Dog's every footfall sent tremors through his armor. The 'Mech's pace was slowing to a walk now in preparation for his point's dismount.

---------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
Radios
Military Communicator
Weight: 100g
Range: 10km
Battery life: 20 hours on a 20g battery
Ability's: secure channel capable, and can use a large number of frequency's
Notes: issued to most military personnel, quite often found built into an infantry mens helmet.

I have yet to see military radios with the same range/weight/battery life ability's, a few civilian models can come close or beat it in some areas but where not talking about civilian stuff...

Field Communicators
Weight: 1,000g
Range: 25km
Battery life: 20 hours on a 20g battery
Ability's: as for the military communicator but adds the ability to monitor 6 channels at once, transmit video and send burst transmissions
Notes: Many military hand held inter-squad radios are of this weight, such as the AN/PRC-148 MBITER (~1kg, with a range of around 5km +- a few km, with a battery life of about 10 hours on a ~200g battery)

Long-Range Communications Kit
Weight: 5kg
Range: 50km (2,500km sat coms)
Battery life: 30 hours on a 3kg battery
Ability's: as above but can receive video, monitor 24 channels, sat coms capable, capable of sending laser and microwave transmissions
Notes: From what I can find this is the weight of current Man pack radios (such as the AN/PRC-117, ~7.5kg with battery) but with more than twice the effective range (the PRC-177 has a effective range of around 15 to 20km AFAIK).

Night Vision Gear
A bit difficult to get some info on but their is some.
A .5kg IR sensor can detect anything bigger than a lit match at 1km
Range finder binocculers
Weight: 500g
Battery life: 200 hours on a 20g battery
Ability's: IR, man sized target at 1,000m, mechs at 10km, Starlight unknown range (but removes all night modifiers, and a number of weapons have a range of over 1km...)

Night Vision Scope
Weight: 450g
Battery life: 200 hours on a 20g battery
Ability's: detects a man sized target at 1,000m, 10x zoom capable

Night Vision goggles
Weight: 600g
Battery life: 200 hours on a 20g battery
Ability's: unknown range, but dose remove all night time modifiers (note longest range infantry weapon in the RPG is 2.5km...)

IR Scanner (thermal "rifle sights")
Weight: 400g
Battery life: 200 hours on a 20g battery
Ability's: smiler to the Range finder binocs, but out to a 5km range

Here's a real life night sight for comparison
AN/PVS 14 NVG
400g (I do not think that includes the battery)
B-life ~50h
400m detection man sized
Gen III

==========================
Remember Mechcommander? Well their exists a similer system in universe.

Imminent Crisis Ch 11

Quote

[indent]With nothing to do but wait, Amelio strode over to a bank of monitors manned by a set of MechCommanders. The position was a relatively new development in the AFFC, and the general was not sure exactly how he felt about it....
...As the most technologically advanced of the Great Houses, the Federated Commonwealth always attempted, and usually succeeded, in providing its military officers with the best training and equipment. This led to the finest officer corps in known space and had made the FedCom juggernaut a fearsome opponent. Their latest attempt to push the envelope had resulted in a new generation of field commanders like these sitting at their console banks before him.

By combining intensive new training techniques that included the latest, top-of-the-line Command/ Control /Communications and logistical software from the prestigious New Avalon Institute of Science, the AFFC had created an integrated, "whole-picture" suite of software that removed the logistical burdens of command. This allowed the MechCommanders, who directly controlled anywhere from a lance up to a company, depending upon the mission profile, to do what they did best: win battles.

But this new type of officer was removed from what he'd known most of his life that he didn't know what to make of them. However, their first deployment in Operation Bird Dog against the Smoke Jaguars had been a spectacular success. Now, with the resources at his disposal barely adequate for taking the planet, the Archon had once more shown her trust in his command abilities—not to mention emphasizing the importance of this mission—by giving him a cadre of these officers. He would soon be utilizing them in the orbital insertion of his 'Mechs before the DropShips themselves made planetfall. He only hoped they would not flame out like the Hanse Davion.

A glance at the first MechCommander's console showed him several monitors, a keyboard, and a light stylus that the officer was busy using. The main monitor currently displayed a topographical map of what Amelio assumed was that company's designated landing site. To the left of that were small monitor feeds from all twelve MechWarriors under the officer's direct control. They were giving him information on everything from their own visual feeds to their 'Mechs' general status and their current physical condition. Finally, several other monitors above and to the right conveyed additional battlefield conditions: a weather-satellite feed, a tie-in to the feeds from the two MechCommanders whose units would drop closest to this one's, and, surprisingly enough, what appeared to be a standard, local news broadcast.[/indent]

The perspective is from Hauptmann-General Victor Amelio of the 4th Donegal Guards.

I doubt that most of the mechs in the 4th had C3 installed for this system to work, so it seems that mechs and other units already have some sort of basic C3 already and that the C3 that is used in game is a more advanced system (though it's more of a remote firing system than a data link realy).

===========================================
Todays topic is on why are things so heavy?

This is not directly canon, but dose help explain the weights of various components

For thoughs who have built units before, you start to notice that a lot of components are rather heavy, like 14 ton autocannon 20s, five ton targeting computers and so on and so forth. This is due to the fact that, theirs a lot of components in that item that are taking up weight but are not listed. For a Gun you would have a gun barrel, recoil slide & recoil gear, breach block, Aiming systems, targeting systems, ammo feeds, reloading gear, power feeds, heat sinks and hook ups for the unit wide system, sensors, electronics, universal mounting hardware (as any item can be equipped on almost any unit you want) and perhaps some armor (how else do you explain some units like the hunchback having the same armor values even though one side has vastly more area to cover).

Items like the Targeting computer, well Tech manual dose mention this (so this bit is at lest canon). It's not just a "five" ton computer, but it's also has (additional) recoil compensators to reduce recoil and improved Gyro Stabilizers to reduce the units own movements so that the weapon can be layed on the target easier and more accurately.

C3 Computers, First off most units already have basic C3 gear on them, theirs a fair number of examples of mechs sharing data between them (like video) even though the unit has no "C3 gear". That said A C3 Slave would install extra computers, "heat sinks" (for the gear), transmitters and the universal mounting brackets. A C3 Master would have lodes more computers (as it's dealing with 4 mechs worth of data), heat sinks to cool off these computers, built in TAG gear and Transmitters to send this data to it's network (and not to mention the universal mounting brackets that allow it to be installed on just about anything).

Engines, well for many units B-tech engines are heavy, but why? What if their not just an engine but include the units Drive systems as well. For instants take a tracked vehicle, It's Engine weight might not contain just the weight of the engine but also, Tracks, road wheels, suspension, fuel tank (well we know about that one already -see strat ops), transmission, final drive and other items. After all a units chassis never gets bigger or heavier the faster it gets, the engine dose. As the only other real place to put this stuff is in the chassis weight, but thats only 10% of the units weight (or 5-10% for mechs), and that's not a hole lot of mass for all of this stuff, Tracks I know can weight as much as 9% of the vehicles weight (Tiger I tracks weighed 5,700kg, M1 Abrams are 4,900 to 5,300kg in weight -depending on the type, Both vehicles weight ~63 tons). but then what dose the Chassis do? Well the Chassis would be the frame where where all the components get bolted on to and the necessary bracing to mount them as well. Though interestingly one area where B-tech engines are often in fact "lighter" than their real world counter parts is with Aircraft engines.
Also a battlemechs engine would contain power cables and myomers as part of it's weight.

[theginganinja]

Hey, I noticed you were having trouble reconciling the canon maximum ranges of the Battletech weapons with what their actual capabilities would be, so I thought I'd put in my understanding of what the ranges were due to.
I distinctly recall that in one of the books, a pilot mentions that theoretically, they should be able to use their lasers to hit just about anything from their mech to the horizon. However, as stated by that pilot's self-talk, the thing that restricts the ranges of B-tech weapons is targeting equipment - namely, its complete lack of sophistication in the Battletech universe. Due to some lack of technological development, targeting systems in Battletech just plain suck. They are heavy and unreliable - even at close range, there's a good chance of missing. That's basically all that can be used to explain the unrealistically short in-game ranges for lasers and gauss rifles. I figure that's a decent part of the weight increases for the larger weapons - they have more gear to ensure accuracy. The missiles are restricted by fuel (the SRMs trade fuel for explosive power). I'm not sure what the deal with Autocannons are, though - logically, like with modern guns, the larger calibers would have greater range, which is contrary to what happens in Battletech. Again, the ranges are shorter than they would be in real life for all classes of autocannon, but that can be attributed to those targeting issues. As far as the range decreases for larger calibers, I'm guessing that for whatever reason, the amount of propellant proportional to the weight of the projectile itself goes down as you move up in size.
Not sure if that helps any, or if you were already thinking it, or what. Just thought I'd put my two cents in

[Nebfer]

irishwarrior, on 03 November 2011 - 05:13 PM, said:

Hey, I noticed you were having trouble reconciling the canon maximum ranges of the Battletech weapons with what their actual capabilities would be, so I thought I'd put in my understanding of what the ranges were due to.
I distinctly recall that in one of the books, a pilot mentions that theoretically, they should be able to use their lasers to hit just about anything from their mech to the horizon. However, as stated by that pilot's self-talk, the thing that restricts the ranges of B-tech weapons is targeting equipment - namely, its complete lack of sophistication in the Battletech universe. Due to some lack of technological development, targeting systems in Battletech just plain suck. They are heavy and unreliable - even at close range, there's a good chance of missing. That's basically all that can be used to explain the unrealistically short in-game ranges for lasers and gauss rifles. I figure that's a decent part of the weight increases for the larger weapons - they have more gear to ensure accuracy. The missiles are restricted by fuel (the SRMs trade fuel for explosive power). I'm not sure what the deal with Autocannons are, though - logically, like with modern guns, the larger calibers would have greater range, which is contrary to what happens in Battletech. Again, the ranges are shorter than they would be in real life for all classes of autocannon, but that can be attributed to those targeting issues. As far as the range decreases for larger calibers, I'm guessing that for whatever reason, the amount of propellant proportional to the weight of the projectile itself goes down as you move up in size.
Not sure if that helps any, or if you were already thinking it, or what. Just thought I'd put my two cents in

Well I do not have as much issues with the ranges as what I wrote, I'm not all that good at writing.

Well theirs an issue with the Targeting systems suck concept, while it works for the 3025 era, it dose not work so well for the post clan invasion time frame. If it truly was a issue of fire control, then we should see an increase in range as the Tech improved, this dose not happen. Also some B-tech fluff mentions that B-tech tech as of 3025 was often higher than today's (at lest in some ways).

One thing to note for autocannons while the heavier guns are often larger ones, this is not always the case, an AC-10 is often noted to be in the 80mm Range, an AC-5 is also often noted to be in the 80mm range. Recoil is likely playing a role here, due to the accuracy required.
An AC-5 firing lighter and or fewer rounds would in theory have less recoil and a tighter grouping. Than a AC-10 that fires twice as many rounds.

Heres a list of B-tech autocannons by caliber and it's source
Note this is raw data that I often use, so my spelling is bad...
GM Nova 5 UAC-5 =50mm cataphract Binding force CH 28
Black Jack Omni 2x 80mm LBX 10 ACs (Alt C config) Binding force CH 11

Desion at thunder ridge Marauder =120mm
Desion at thunder ridge Shadow hawk AC-5 80mm or 90mm
Price of glory Riflemens Imperator-A AC-5 = 80mm
Price of glory centurion Luxor-D AC = 80mm
Price of glory Marauder =120mm (dropships also have 120mm guns, faster ROF)
Price of glory Wolverine = 60mm
Mercenary's Star centurion 30mm AC ;end of CH 20
Mercenary's Star 15mm MG ammo

Ghost of winter Ch 1 centurion AC-10 = 80mm
Heir to the dragon CH 32 100mm Pontiac AC-20 victor
Heir to the dragon 100mm Death Giver AC-20 Atlas

Patriots and tyrants CH 13 Enforcer III Merdron Excell UAC-10 = 80mm
Patriots and tyrants CH 25 Dragon Fire Merdron Excell LBX-10 = 80mm
Patriots and tyrants CH 25 Daishi Ultra AC-2s = 30mm

Storms of fate CH 20 Vulcan 5S Imperator UAC-5 = 80mm
Storms of fate CH 20 Daikyu Imperator Ultra (5) eighty-millimeter

Double blind ch 30 Enforcer =100mm
Double blind ch 41 Clint AC-5 =50mm
Double blind Ch 1 Jagermech "500mm" AC
binding force ch9 120mm AC-20s Von Luckners
binding force ch28 50mm UAC-5 Cataphract
binding force ch 24 Black jack BJ-1 32mm ACs-2s

---------
Demolisher I Tank: AC-20s = 185mm (TRO 3025)
Monitor Naval ship: Tro 3025 - same turret as Demolisher
Hetzer Assault gun TRO 3025: AC-20 = 150mm
Warrior VTOL TRO 3025: AC-2 = 30mm

Invading Clans Source-book
Caldron born Alt A: UAC-20 =203m
Caldron born Alt C: UAC-2 = 25mm
Caldron born Primary: LBX-5 = 75mm

Blitzkrieg: Ultra AC-20 = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants)
Barghest: LBX-20 = 120mm (Patriots and Tyrants)
Banshee: LBX-10 =100mm (Endgame)???
Orion: AC-10 = 90mm (Battletechnolgy mag) -invalidated
Centurion: AC-10 =70mm (Battletechnolgy mag) -invalidated
Merkava tank: AC-5 = 105mm (TRO 3075)
Mackie 5S: AC-5 =110mm (Birth of a king scenario)
Warrior Vtol: RAC-2 = 40mm (TRO 3058) "Thor"

Clan tanks TRO 3060
LBX-5 AC type COVR-X: 40mm (Zorya)
LBX-10 AC Type KOV: 75mm or 150mm (same gun on Mars & Ishtar but different caliber)
Ultra AC-2 type 25: 50mm (Mithras)
Ultra AC-5 type 31: 40mm (Heuy)
Ultra AC-10 type 9: 75mm (Istar & Ku)

Clan
Type-20 Ultra AC-20: = 200mm (Fire Scorpion 3, Battlecorps)

Endgame
Jagermech 7F
RAC-5 eighty mm

Flashpoint
Bushwhacker: AC eighty mm
Enforcer AC (Class 10) = eighty mm
Challenger MBTs LBX-10: 100mm -ch 26

Illusions of victory
Orion 80mm AC
Emperor LBX 80mm "code red" (Class 10)
Barghest AC 120mm (Class 20)
Cataphract UAC-5 = 40mm, LBX-10 =80mm
Striker 40mm AC-5
Mad Dog omnimech AC-5 = 40mm

killing field
Marauders AC-5 = 50mm

Imminent Crisis
AC-5s = 40mm unknown type -templar omni grayson config
Jagermech III AC-2s = 20mm, hypervelocity

The Dying time
MG 13mm, on a jeep
Gunther MP-20 SMG 11mm
Buzzsaw AMS 13mm -exterminator

Threads of ambition
Jagermech AC-2s =30mm
Black jack AC-2 =30mm
Hetzer: AC-20 = 120mm

Shadows of war
Elementals MG = 13mm

Era report 3052
Hunchback = 180mm AC-20

Battlecorps
Light AC-5 "Snake killer", shadowhawk9D =60mm

Wolf pack -200mm ACs (no mech attributed out side a mech fired a 200mm shell)
------------
A call to arms Ch 1
Merdron 80mm autocannon
Prolog
Legionnaire RAC-5 = 50mm
CH 6
Jagatai AC-20 = 120mm
CH 12
Hatchetman Ultra AC-10 =80mm
CH 14
Jupiter quad Ultra AC-5s = 50mm
CH 15
Agromech Mod A, Armstrong Class 5 Autocannon = 50mm
CH 20
DI Schmitts =50mm RAC-5

By Temptations and By War
CH 11
DI Schmitts =50mm RAC-5
CH 14
Ranger MG = 20mm
CH 29
DI Schmitts; MG = 20mm

Patriots Stand
CH 13
Agro mech mods 50mm, 30mm & 20mm Autocannons
CH 15
Gun Truck; MG =20mm

Flight of the Falcon
CH 16
Shrike; Ultra AC-5 =100mm
CH 32
Gyrfalcon Ultra AC-5 = 50mm

Blood of the Isle
Ch 20
Gyrfalcon Ultra AC-5 = 50mm
CH 33
SM-1 TD AC =120mm
Gyrfalcon Ultra AC-5 = 80mm

=================
fortress republic -PO 100mm (AC-10s, perhaps 20s)
Fortress republic SM1 Destroyers 120mm (AC-20s)

Loftgren Supreme Model 150
12.7mm, range 2,000m with scope
MV 868.6m/s
(The above weapon was used to kill Ryan steiner)

[Joachim Viltry]

irishwarrior, on 03 November 2011 - 05:13 PM, said:

Hey, I noticed you were having trouble reconciling the canon maximum ranges of the Battletech weapons with what their actual capabilities would be, so I thought I'd put in my understanding of what the ranges were due to.
I distinctly recall that in one of the books, a pilot mentions that theoretically, they should be able to use their lasers to hit just about anything from their mech to the horizon. However, as stated by that pilot's self-talk, the thing that restricts the ranges of B-tech weapons is targeting equipment - namely, its complete lack of sophistication in the Battletech universe. Due to some lack of technological development, targeting systems in Battletech just plain suck. They are heavy and unreliable - even at close range, there's a good chance of missing. That's basically all that can be used to explain the unrealistically short in-game ranges for lasers and gauss rifles. I figure that's a decent part of the weight increases for the larger weapons - they have more gear to ensure accuracy. The missiles are restricted by fuel (the SRMs trade fuel for explosive power). I'm not sure what the deal with Autocannons are, though - logically, like with modern guns, the larger calibers would have greater range, which is contrary to what happens in Battletech. Again, the ranges are shorter than they would be in real life for all classes of autocannon, but that can be attributed to those targeting issues. As far as the range decreases for larger calibers, I'm guessing that for whatever reason, the amount of propellant proportional to the weight of the projectile itself goes down as you move up in size.
Not sure if that helps any, or if you were already thinking it, or what. Just thought I'd put my two cents in

Something worth considering is that a lot of the targeting isn't just selecting a target and identifying it as such but also keeping the weapons trained on it from a moving platform, which is often pitching wildly and using its limbs to assist in basic balance. Canonically Targeting Computers (that is the non standard ones that cost tonnage to mount) aren't just comps, and sensors, but also special additions to actuators, and weapon stabilization systems. What this indicates to me is that keeping the weapons ON target is a big part of the problem.

Also I always though that quite a bit of the problems with weapons ranges and targeting could be chocked up to battlefield interference. If you assume that every mechs standard systems include basic ECM hardware that can hamper targeting then a situation could be generated where targeting sucks pretty badly all around, given the physical limitations I mentioned before.

And since it is a standard system It's not worth mentioning until someone slaps a much more powerful set of ECM hardware into a mech, expressly for the purpose of disrupting hostile targeting to a much greater degree.


As to the AC range issue, well - Nebfer has that solidly covered. Classes of AC are an abstraction, AC's are classed by basic damage per salvo / range. therefore an AC-2 doesn't mean 'small caliber'; it means Long range - low damage per salvo. that could be obtained by a single shell of high velocity or several larger lower velocity shells or any other combination.

essentially it is like saying that all modern tank main guns are broadly similar in damage capability and therefore 'count as' identical weapons for gameplay. (actually that is exactly how small arms are handled in the "Ambush Alley" tabletop game rules- for that games purposes all rifles are the same).

[Nebfer]

Also note that according to Techmanual a battlemechs computers are not all that bad, they can identify from it's warbook exactly what kind of battlemech it is, down to the configuration from it's sensor readings even if the mech has very similar configurations.

Also a battlemechs computers are also doing the majority of the work on piloting, the mechwarrior is for the most part telling the mech where to go, it's the mech that's doing the dirty work of piloting. So that mech running through a forest at 76kph and ******* trees left and right is partly due to the mechs on-board computer, the mechwarrior might be choosing the overall direction but the fine details like moving that arm 20cm to the left to avoid that tree or avoiding to place that foot right next to that downed log to avoid tripping issues is the computers work. Considering how much trouble we hare having getting cars navigating by them selves....

Their is also some evidence that ECM can or dose play a role, Techmanual mentions in the entry for basic fire control gear (for support vehicles) gets it's to hit penalty's parts due to ECM built into regular combat units (all combat units be it combat vehicles, battlemechs or fighters are assumed to have a ton of ECM and communications gear built in). The Entry for Rocket launchers mentions that modern "High Tech" missiles have to fight hostile ECM on the way to the target, and the introductory entry for missiles mentions that theirs a lot of noise on the battlefield (the ECM entry also mentions this). In Tactical ops it mentions that battletech communications gear has advanced considerably sense the 21st century however ECM gear has advanced even faster (partly due to the tremendous power available to a fusion engine) and has reduced communication ranges on average to thoughs that would be considered weak by 20th century levels (avg coms range is 50km).

Even the Listen Kill missiles (a EM seeking missile, homing on the EM emissions produced by a combat unit) was negated by a simple upgrade to the units on-board ECM gear.


------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a rough brake down of of the number of times an caliber of autocannons where mentioned, for thoughs who want a little more condensed info.

Autocannon 2
20mm =1
25mm =1
30mm =4
32mm =1 (same gun mentioned in another book is 30mm)
40mm =1
50mm =1

Autocannon 5
40mm =6
50mm =11 (interestingly eight of these come from the DA time line)
60mm =2
75mm =1
80mm =5
100mm =1
105mm =1
110mm =1
120mm =2

Autocannon 10
75mm =2
80mm =10
100mm =4

Autocannon 20
100mm =2
120mm =7
150mm =1
180mm =1
185mm =2
200mm =2
203mm =1

Edited by nebfer, 04 November 2011 - 11:42 AM.

[aglarang]

- Wall of text crits you for 1000 points. Fusion reactor goes critical.

Seriously though, I will have to take some real time to read through this. Seems interesting but not something I can digest in the limited time I have now.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

aglarang, on 04 November 2011 - 11:56 AM, said:

- Wall of text crits you for 1000 points. Fusion reactor goes critical.

Seriously though, I will have to take some real time to read through this. Seems interesting but not something I can digest in the limited time I have now.

Yes, well, fusion reactors only go critical like that in Stackpole books.
Also, where's the Cray button?

[Nebfer]

Yeah Fusion engines do not really go boom, tech manual spends a page on that. Well these are taken from a series of posts I did a while back.
Speaking fusion engines here's an old post I copied a while back on one possible look on how powerful are mech reactors.

The topic stared with the guy wanting to know how powerful where mech reactors, with a Savannah Master being used as an example. This is an old post before Total Warfare came out.

Quote

Unfortunately no, but you can deduce that it is a necessary function. I figured this out back on the old boards in the 'Mech Horsepower thread. Here's my conclusions as posted in that thread:

Walking SpeedRating   Weight   MP	 HP	 BTUs/sec100
 
 
20	  5	3,000	 1,400160
20	  8	7,680	 3,584200
20	 10   12,000	 5,600160
40	  4	3,840	 1,792240
40	  6	8,640	 4,032320
40	  8   15,360	 7,168240
60	  4	5,760	 2,688300
60	  5	9,000	 4,200360
60	  6   12,960	 6,048240
80	  3	4,320	 2,016320
80	  4	7,680	 3,584400
80	  5   12,000	 5,600200
100	 2	2,400	 1,120300
100	 3	5,400	 2,520400
100	 4	9,600	 4,480.
Running SpeedRating   Weight   MP	 HP	 BTUs/sec100  
20	  8	7,680	 3,584160
20	 12   17,280	 8,064200
20	 15   27,000	12,600160
40	  6	8,640	 4,032240
40	  9   19,440	 9,072320
40	 12   34,560	16,128240
60	  6   12,960	 6,048300
60	  8   23,040	10,752360
60	  9   29,160	13,608240
80	  5   12,000	 5,600320
80	  6   17,280	 8,064400
80	  8   30,720	14,336200
100	 3	5,400	 2,520300
100	 5   15,000	 7,000400
100	 6   21,600	 10,080

--
These are derived from the basic function I created for the energy necessary to push a 'Mech. Those equations are:

Mass x 4 x Move² = Wasted HP (within 0.5% accuracy)
Rating² / 1/6th mass = Total HP
Rating² / ( mass / 2.8 ) = Waste Heat in BTUs (within 1.5% accuracy)

Of course, they're simplified to whole numbers, but very accurate and easy compared to if you actually do the math out to figure it out the hard way.

Now, looking at the table of example 'Mechs, a 20 ton 'Mech with a 200-rated engine needs to provide 12,000 Horsepower (8.9 megawatts) of electrical energy to walk 10. However, the same engine in a 100 ton 'Mech only provides 2,400 Horsepower (1.8 megawatts) to move it at 2 walk. Same engine? Nope. Just the same "rating". A 200-rated engine for a 100-ton 'Mech needs only provide a fraction of the power needed to push the heavier 'Mech at a slower speed. Now let's look at the Flee/Charger example I cited before. A Flea needs 3,000 HP to walk 5 while a Charger needs 12,000 HP. An increase of 4 times the power required, right? Well, the rating is 4 times as high, so that makes sense. But the engine weight is 17.5 times heavier. Even after removing the "factor of four", the engine is 4.375 times heavier for the same energy provided. Look at it this way:

3,000 HP / 3 tons = 1,000 HP per ton
12,000 HP / 52.5 tons = 228.57 HP per ton

See? For the same first horsepower of output, the Charger's Engine is over 4 times as heavy. Where is that weight going if it isn't going to extra power output? If we actually only need to increase to core output by a factor of four, why the 17.5-fold increase in mass? Even more telling, some engines produce less energy for the same weight or even less energy for more weight. (Like the 300 engine for a 60-tonner vs. the 320 for an 80-tonner) A 200 rated engine isn't twice the weight of the 100, nor is it an increase at all to put the same engine with a lower output on a heavier 'Mech. A 200 Magna on a 20-tonner weighs exactly the same as a 200 Nissan put on a 100-tonner, even though the Heavier 'Mech needs less power. So, if it only needs 2,400 HP, why can't we use a smaller engine that can provide that, like the Hermes 100 from a Hornet? We know the Hermes 100 can produce enough power, so why can't we use it? Because the 100 Hermes wasn't made to push 100-ton 'Mechs, that's why. The engine weight therefore must include things other than the reactor and shielding.

Then there is the issue of weapon power. The best estimate I have for the energy to fire a Small Laser is on the order of 380 megawatts. Any less and we run into the "reality wall" of not being able to melt 187.5 kg of common steel, let alone 187.5 kg of BT armor. If an engine can provide 380 megawatts and not even blink, the 26 megawatts to run a 40-ton 'Mech at 130 kph isn't anything... and that's peak output for all of my examples.

Thus, on multiple counts, we see that engine power cannot be the source of increased weight. Logic precludes it.

Is there a direct canon statement that reinforces the logic? Yes, but not in fluff... in rules. Page 89 of the BMR® states that replacement engines must be matched to the unit's tonnage and Walking MP. You cannot take a 200 Nissan from a 40-ton Watchman and use it in a 50-ton Hunchback, even though it uses a 200 Magna. It's not the same engine, even though it has the same rating.

In conclusion, after a lot of examination of the facts, one must conclude that the weight of the engine is largely based on the miscellaneous other parts of the 'Mech that involve movement yet have no listed weight, (actuators, myomer, etc.) not on the weight of the reactor core and shielding. The obvious question after that is, "Then why does an engine upgrade to make a 'Mech faster not require the myomer and actuators to be replaced?" The only answer I have is that they don't need to be replaced, just "augmented". The base cost for actuators and myomer are just the minimum necessary. The added myomer bundles and actuator enhancements necessary are a part of the engine package.


After wringing some numbers about, Cray and I worked out the
energy equation of the energy necessary to accelerate a given weight to a given speed in less than a turn. We settled on 3 second acceleration to full speed to explain why a 'Mech can go from a dead stop to full MP use in one turn and not go even faster on subsequent turns. (the 3 second figure was drawn from bipedal acceleration rates of living organisms like people... since myomer is equally inefficient as muscle at converting energy into movement, 1/3rd efficient to be exact, it follows naturally that a bipedal 'Mech would also have a similar rate of acceleration) The energy equation to find the energy needed to accelerate a given weight to a given speed is a pure function of kinetic energy.

Let's look at a 5/8 Hornet accelerating to a full run in 3 seconds. (8 MP is 24 meters/second)

Energy = 1/2 x Mass x Velocity²
0.5 x 20,000 kg x 24 m/s² = 5,760,000 Joules

Power = Energy / Time
5.76 megajoules / 3 seconds = 1.92 megawatts = 2,573.73 horsepower

However, myomers waste twice as much energy as they use to actually move the 'Mech, so we triple that back to 5.76 megawatts or 7,721 horsepower. That's within half a percent of my simplified numbers, which is close enough for quick figures. The 2/3rds of waste turn into heat that has to be shed. The waste heat would therefore be 3.84 megawatts or 3,639.62 BTU/second, within 1.55% of my simple figure.

The energy needed to maintain that speed is miniscule, with only the energy lost from friction and the inefficiency of the system as needing to be replaced every 10 seconds. The reason 'Mechs cannot go any faster isn't that they lack the energy, but their motive system lacks the ability to operate faster. (faster contraction of the myomers as controlled by the actuators, etc.) It's the same thing that limits the speed of a tank... it's not the power put out by the horsepower of the engine, but the limitations of the tracks and transmission to turn any faster without tearing themselves apart. Same thing in a 'Mech. It's not the limitations of power from the reactor that keep a 'Mech from moving faster, it's the limitations of the legs to move any quicker. The reactor can generate far more energy than the motive system could ever handle, even on the smallest fusion engine.

For example, the Omni 25 fusion engine of the Savannah Master must generate around 640 megawatts to fire the Medium Laser, far more than the paltry 1.15 megawatts needed for its 20 flank speed or even the 26 megawatts needed to push a 40-ton Cicada to its 12 MP running speed... but the Cicada needs a Pitban 320 engine to do it. Why? It's not the power... so it must be something else that's adding 22 tons of weight. In fact, the Cicada could drop to a 40 rated engine and free up 21 tons to add 3 ER PPCs. Yeah, it doesn't have the heat sinks to fire them, but that tiny little 40-rating engine can produce the needed 4 gigawatts to fire those three ER PPCs.

[Tempus]

Just my own theory but In terms of the evolution of the systems, I figure that good AMS systems are what drove the use of swarms of missiles instead of just using something equivalent to a harpoon or silkworm.

Long ago units started mounting scaled down versions of the AMS systems we see aboard ships these days as a defense against large self guided missiles like the current Maverick (which is very big compared to LRM/SRM). With the ability to defeat a single expensive
'smart' missile with a few rounds of cheap AMS ammo, the switch was made to swarms of smaller and very less intelligent 'semi-guided' missiles that could overwhelm the AMS system. Once everyone switched to that, many folks figured there was not much point in mounting AMS, although some designs still do as a partial mitigation against missile fire.

Although I think that it's fun and an intellectual challenge to try and come up with justifications and explanations, on the whole it's easier to say that some of this stuff only makes sense from the aspect of 'game balance' and allowing us to play this game in an area smaller than the footprint of a tennis court. At some point you just have to realize that, and acknowledge that any attempt to rationalize things like the disparity of what a heavy rifle can do to a battlemech and yet not obliterate a person becomes pointless. Or as a friend of mine says 'A cat-girl is killed any time you try to bring reason and logic into a discussion about battletech technology. So please, stop killing the poor cat-girls'

[Joachim Viltry]

Tempus, on 04 November 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:

'A cat-girl is killed any time you try to bring reason and logic into a discussion about battletech technology. So please, stop killing the poor cat-girls'

Heh, *whiny nerd voice* "but we're sci-fi nerds! speculation and justification are our favorite pastime!" */nerd voice*

Poor, poor catgirls...

[Nebfer]

Tempus, on 04 November 2011 - 05:48 PM, said:

Just my own theory but In terms of the evolution of the systems, I figure that good AMS systems are what drove the use of swarms of missiles instead of just using something equivalent to a harpoon or silkworm.

Long ago units started mounting scaled down versions of the AMS systems we see aboard ships these days as a defense against large self guided missiles like the current Maverick (which is very big compared to LRM/SRM). With the ability to defeat a single expensive
'smart' missile with a few rounds of cheap AMS ammo, the switch was made to swarms of smaller and very less intelligent 'semi-guided' missiles that could overwhelm the AMS system. Once everyone switched to that, many folks figured there was not much point in mounting AMS, although some designs still do as a partial mitigation against missile fire.

Although I think that it's fun and an intellectual challenge to try and come up with justifications and explanations, on the whole it's easier to say that some of this stuff only makes sense from the aspect of 'game balance' and allowing us to play this game in an area smaller than the footprint of a tennis court. At some point you just have to realize that, and acknowledge that any attempt to rationalize things like the disparity of what a heavy rifle can do to a battlemech and yet not obliterate a person becomes pointless. Or as a friend of mine says 'A cat-girl is killed any time you try to bring reason and logic into a discussion about battletech technology. So please, stop killing the poor cat-girls'

Well that's one area I could never really figure out, the switch from single missiles to swarms of smaller ones. AMS is a reasonable one but not really born out with what I have seen.

Their are areas where you just have to go well it's magic, or well that's how it is... and move on as your never really going to get a good system that works with every thing.

One such area where one has to go well that's how it is, is the so called "Fasanomics". Battletech house military's seem to run into about a thousand regiments or so, comprising of about 80 battlemech regiments, a few hundred tank units, hundreds of infantry regiments and unknown numbers of artillery, and fighter units. Planetary populations are also averaging about three billion per world, with militia garrisons ranging from a single regiment to a few dozen... The short end is the military's and their respective industry is about one hundredth the size it should be...

Edited by Nebfer, 04 November 2011 - 08:26 PM.

[Nebfer]

Well here's some thoughts on the mobility of battlemechs

One of the most common depiction of battlemechs is that their sluggish walking tanks. Though looking at the rules and fluff their is some truth to this but this is not entirely true. I do not think a battlemech that can go from a standing start to over 120kph (~75mph) in under five or so seconds can be truly considered sluggish or even to a degree non-agile. Sure no battlemech is going to be quite as agile as a Gundam or NEXT or some other unit from the largely Asian mecha styles. But they don't have to be, to have impressive performance.

Even so their are examples of mechs performing handstands or dance moves (Noisiel games any one?) in the fluff that occures from time to time. Theirs even a rule for this (A Time of War has a pilot ability that allows the pilot to do these), however as most of these "acrobatics" are more suited for off the field rather than combat (so theirs no in game effect for a hand stand) the the rule is more of a note that allows the pilot to perform these with the game masters consent (though their are more useful in game aspects to the specific piloting abiliy). Tactical ops also allows mechs to hang or drop off cliffs, crawl, leap down cliffs or even climb them. None of these exactly portray a unit that is merely a walking tank.

Another thing is that even a mechs running speed is not it's over all top speed, Tactical ops allows a unit to sprint which has the same effect as MASC (but at the cost of the unit is easier to hit and can not fire -pilot concentrating on moving the mech), it can stack with MASC though (for a 2.5x walking modifier), Then tactical ops allows units to gain access to a navigation satellite to have a +1 movement (better maps) but using that extra MP is the same as sprinting. And a Time of War adds a piloting ability that allows for the mech to move an extra two MP while sprinting (or an extra MP if running but again using it counts as sprinting). Also other vehicles can use the sprinting and other ability's than just mechs.

For reference here's the speeds of a mech with out any engine modifications (TSM, MASC or Supercharger) but inclueds Sprinting and the other two options. (Walking / Running = Sprinting + Sat Nav & Speed demon ability (the name of the piloting ability))

2/3 = 7 (75.6kph) (Urban mechs are not nessacarly slow...)
3/5 = 9 (97.2kph)
4/6 = 11 (118.8kph)
5/8 = 13 (140.4kph)
6/9 = 15 (162kph)
7/11 = 17 (183.6kph)
8/12 = 19 (205.2kph)
9/14 = 21 (226.8kph)
10/15 = 23 (248.4kph)
11/17 = 25 (270kph)
12/18 = 27 (291.6kph)
13/20 = 29 (313.2kph)
14/21 = 31 (334.8kph) (Locust 6M, which has MASC as well, 410.4kph with it engaged)
15/23 = 33 (356.4kph)
16/24 = 35 (378kph)

I do not belive theirs any canon unit above 14/21.
Again thats a unit with it's base walk/run ability with it's sprinting rate with a Nav sat uplink and the "speed demon" pilot ability.
Note: The Rules for the speed demon ability do not prohibit pilots with slow units from having it, though I do not think one will see a Urban mech pilot with the ability any time soon (it dose not quite fit an urbanmechs pilot profile to have one)...

[Alizabeth Aijou]

I disagree with the speed above.
UrbanMechs were designed to be slow, ditto for the Annihilator.
Also, speed is usually calculated as MP×10,8.
So a sprinting Urbie would move only 43.2 km/h (no active TSM, MASC, or Supercharger).

The strength of the Urbie is the low cost, high-armour and powerful main gun for its weight class (engine/gyro are usually the biggest costs).
Ofcourse, the Urbie's downfall is the use of an AC/10 when a PPC would've been far better. Something that they finally fixed with the UM-R80 in TRO:3085. Took them some 400 years to do so, though. But the Arrow IV Urbie sort-of makes up for it...

[DocBach]

The PPC wouldn't have been appropriate to use in an urban environment due to the minimum range. AC/10 is fine for the UrbanMech, but for the price of one you could get a bunch of Hetzers instead.

But I like that someone has pointed out the piloting specializations from A Time of War - I'm a big advocate of being able to customize your MechWarrior with skills rather than pimp your 'Mech out from the ground up in MWO, and something like a MechWarrior who has the speed demon specializes in speed can get their 'Mech to push out a couple more kph or have a 'MechWarrior that can get his machine to turn quicker than the stock 'Mech would be a pretty cool game mechanic.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Quote

The PPC wouldn't have been appropriate to use in an urban environment due to the minimum range. AC/10 is fine for the UrbanMech, but for the price of one you could get a bunch of Hetzers instead.

Ah yes, the minimum range.
Forgot about that for a moment.
Also, Hetzers tend to have problems jumping ontop of buildings.

Quote

But I like that someone has pointed out the piloting specializations from A Time of War

Never really noticed them, then again, I'm more familiar with MechWarrior 3rd edition aka CBTRPG.
Also, source of SatNav ability?

[Nebfer]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 20 November 2011 - 03:34 AM, said:

I disagree with the speed above.
UrbanMechs were designed to be slow, ditto for the Annihilator.
Also, speed is usually calculated as MP×10,8.
So a sprinting Urbie would move only 43.2 km/h (no active TSM, MASC, or Supercharger).

The speed in kph is 10.8 x MP (or in this case the max MP the unit can go with out engine mods). And a Urban mech with a speed demon pilot (no rules indicating that "slow" mechs are prohibited, though the general rules overview mentions that ability's should try to match the pilots preferred ride, so a urban mech pilot with the speed demon ability should be rare to say the lest.) would be able have an extra two MPs, add in a navigation satellite while sprinting, and that urban mech should be able to move up to seven hexes a turn, unlikely but possible. So 7 x 10.8 = 75.6

The Rules for Navigation satellite is on page 195 of tactical ops
Basically one in four units of the side with the correct active sat. uplink can for the duration of the uplink can gain a +1 running/flanking MP.
This is described as the pilot finding better paths due to the better maps available from the satellite.

Also the Communications satellite allows one in four units to have a +1 to their long range for their weapons.
This is described as due to better coordination of their lanes of fire.

[Pht]

Nebfer said:

2: B-tech Armor also is weaker to high mass and low velocity impacts than to high velocity and low mass impacts, such as melee attacks and falling damage.

You might almost be more correct if these were called "armor bending" attacks.

Basically, in that right, the armor acts like glass - it's insanely hard and strong, but because it's so hard, it can't handle bending, so when a 'Mech fist or such hits it the panel bends and the outer two layers "explode" not in a manner unlike how a tempered multi-layer car windshield will when the panel bends beyond its shattering limit, leaving you with little bits of the outer two armor layers clinging to the lower titanium support layer (that is, if the attack doesn't breach the titanium layer too.

Also, you seem to have missed the polymer sealant layer that is behind the titanium layer; it is the layer that allows 'Mechs to conduct underwater and space combat - it seals the inside of the 'Mech.

Edited by Pht, 20 November 2011 - 03:46 PM.

[Cattra Kell]

Nebfer, I just wanted to post to say how much I love you for this thread!